Anyone see these?

[Andre_Db66]

Amplifiers i used which AR3a caused clipping:

Crown DC300mk2; Crown D150; Dateq HPA600; Yamaha M2

Sansui AU919 can not (warning lights) clip but becomes dangerously hot.

All very respectable amplifiers with up to 300 watt disposable  per channel. I can not fathom how a 60wpch amp could possibly hold its own against that. The Crown is from the same era and even recommended by some people for the AR3a. So yes these speakers consume a ton of power.

I have 3 400wpc amps giving 2.4kw all together, providing all the power 2 sets of AR3a and 1 set of LST could possibly need. This has never clipped and goes far beyond any amount of spl i can find sensible in a household environment. I do not own a concert hall or discotheque.

Meanwhile, there is no burning smell from any of the 12 tweeters involved because the sound is lineair and without clipping or distortion. Perhaps that is what causes the death of tweeters rather than their low power rating.

As the thread topic is about chinese replacement voice coils, these are modern replacements, and should probably hold their own against all the abuse. Your questionaire being more about how they sound i find it odd you dont go about trying it for yourself.

It is like people who own Quad electrostats and add subwoofers or super tweeters to the equation. Just like Tannoy dual concentric owners with a super tweeter. It was all designed without these additions and to quote Roy, then maybe the speakers are not to your liking. In one of my posts someone actually commented me on the type of material played on the AR speakers as that did not exist yet when introduced to the market. That is the biggest belony remark ever. Whole sets of speakers in PA die because of the output peaks of one single microphone, so someone can easily put the lights out of an AR tweeter with any given material if the source is clipping to DC or distorted material is being sent downstream. Rather overpower your AR speakers than underpower.

Coming back to the topic, these modern chinese coils have even too much output as someone mentioned about them and that is true. Tame them to AR standard and they will perform comparably and most likely hold out better to abuse. Replacement is 2 cents anyway so who cares.

I do care about originality up to the point where it makes no more sense moneywise. If i were to blow up my LST tweeters or 3a, i will not hesitate to replace with chinese vc.

I can not post a picture of my setup as it is alive with diversity.

In my small listening room i have; kef ls50 meta;beovox K;goodmans magnum k;philips 9710;advent nla;tannoy lgm:ar3a impr;ar 5; advent 1;ar 6;philips ad1255;b&w small pod.

In my living i have;kefkit 3; ar3a;ar lst;rogers ls3/5a;monitor audio studio 2;b&w dm2a;quad esl57;quad esl63,jbl 4627a with 2380a horn and 2 inch 2446J driver on top.(fabulous on Krell)

Stashed away for a rainy day i have;dynacord mosquitos;mach 12inch pa; mach 8 inch pa;philips motion feedback 532 and quite a few beovox models from late 60s.

I do not think that Acoustic Research is the best i have, it is however a very nice addition to my palette of choices. Many speakers outperform the AR but every speaker i own is enjoyable. There is no perfect speaker, that i am very aware of... what is however absolutely crucial, is the synergy with what is upstream. I am NEVER referring to cables. I dont go there.

Quad has flimsy cables and never used the best parts, i know for fact that replacing all components with modern equivalents does not make it sound sweeter... i have done many rebuilds of the 303.

Sticking to the question of the topic starter, yes i have, and they can be used with good results.

Cheers

@FM there is picture of my speakers in this thread

[frankmarsi]

" what is however absolutely crucial, is the synergy with what is upstream. I am NEVER referring to cables. I dont go there."

Is there a reason you mention cables?  

A listening room also contributes to a system's "synergy"  with a stereo system.

I'm glad you mention "upstream"  as I have a number of times but never receive a pro or nay comment in return.

FM

[Andre_Db66]

1 hour ago, frankmarsi said:

" what is however absolutely crucial, is the synergy with what is upstream. I am NEVER referring to cables. I dont go there."

Is there a reason you mention cables?  

A listening room also contributes to a system's "synergy"  with a stereo system.

I'm glad you mention "upstream"  as I have a number of times but never receive a pro or nay comment in return.

FM

Strangely enough i do not encounter performance problems contributed by placement with my full space 3a but LST do seem to need wall placement. Unfortunately my living does not allow wall placement. This might be the reason to say goodbye to the LST. I am not going to part with them as long as i have some resentment and feel i might regret it. So for now they will be put aside and remain unused. Until now my experience with 2 sets of 3a, regardless wether connected to classic conventional A/B solid state or class D, perform much better standing in free space. I blame this also on linearity of the 3a. Yes there is less beaming with LST as treble spreads much better but i either listen from the sweet spot or am walking around. When walking around i tend to hear the bass better being less confronted with the excessive amount of treble. So it doesnt only appear as placement to me, i tend to think the LST is simply not for me. When i walk around or sit on the sweet spot and want this much treble, i prefer my Krell/tube preamp combo on the JBL. The definition and presence is much better than with LST. Studio recordings on the sweet spot between quad 3a is as though i am present in the studio with nodislikes or listening fatigue, contrary to LST. (These are all speakers that can handle a good amount of power.)

Listening room contribution to synergy is truth. Not many people afford themselves the luxury of so many speakers, pre amps, power amps to find the correct synergy between upstream influences on speakers. It all starts with source material as matter of fact. In practice we all have to admit a music piece can be great but the recording lousy. What to do? I tend to exchange all that is upstream(gear) and sometimes speakers. That is why i can flick 8 switches on average with completely different hardware. What sounds good or bad on AR can be a whole different ball game in the neighbouring setup. I do not want to live with only AR because they are not perfect. They are put to shame by esl63 for example. I have had people over and let them judge themselves, telling me they were blown away by them after hearing everything in my living room. Upstream nothing changed. The banana plugs were simply pulled from each speaker to the next.

Seems a paradox then, saying upsteam decides etc... all the above, but when  sound is lineair one cannot add or subtract anything only demonstrate the flaws of each individual loudspeaker. Next best speaker judged in that listening session was the studio 2, they are truely amazing. One cannot hear which speaker is playing of the lot and they sound huge.

In all this the ar3a compete,in all fairness, very well, but they dont excell, but do display magic in their own distinctive way...

@FM When i was younger i would build a similar setup in the room to what you have. Central i would place the speakers so that placement was optimal, the rest was all secondary. At this moment i do not have this luxury to begin with, i have a lovely wife who does allow my current setups which some friends call jokingly a vintage audio equipment shop. I have to make do with available space and room equalisation. I do have a good electronic xo and could adjust the output to the room but it would be much easier to buy 1 set of good speakers and a sugden amplifier. They come with a mic and electronics take care of room equalising.

Straight is straight. Source decides how good the end product wiĺl sound, in between are many, many variables. I find that if one takes cables into that last equation, one is not listening to music but forever overanalysing sound. This is perpetual. I do not go there.

If i want to go loud i turn to AR or JBL. JBL more worry free because they are not prone to break downs. The louder you want the better choice PA becomes.

If i want to go small, there is a legion of speakers at my disposal just like amps and sources. I tend not to choose AR for this purpose... Nelson Pass F6 class A on Kef LS50 Meta outperforms AR extensively for example.

[frankmarsi]

“Straight is straight. Source decides how good the end product wiĺl sound, in between are many, many variables. I find that if one takes cables into that last equation, one is not listening to music but forever overanalysing sound. This is perpetual. I do not go there.”

 

When in and around 1978 “Disc-Washer” came out with their new interconnects I pondered their claims of better quality listening results. My system at that time consisted of two AR-3a’s, a Phase Linear PL-4000 and PL-400. By that time I was using Micro-Statics as tweeters as my then 7 years experience with AR’s tweeter’s inabilities were forgotten as a bad memory. I still have the metal plates I cut to block off the tweeters cabinet hole.

I realized these cables were available locally at a store on Union Square West at 14th. St. NYC That store was very old and was popular for years before my time, called “Packard Electronics’ .

These new cables promised better bass, better highs, their name;  “Golden-Ends”.   I, like many at the time simply used the cheap-junk cables that usually came with every new component one could purchase.

I was just starting to make decent money and took the chance of buying a couple of sets. My inputs were a Pioneer CT-900 cassette, Harmon- Kardon T-403 FM tuner and a Tannoy/Micro-Seiki TM55 turntable with Shure Type III cartridge.

To be honest there wasn’t a huge change in the sound though things did seem a bit focused, more open as it were.

When in the late eighties I bought into that Monster-Cable schtick and did my whole system with their 400 Series cables about $40./meter. A definite change in sound but also slightly muted overall and un-involving.

 

In 2012 I went up in cost with “Straight-Wires’ mid level “Symphony II’s” about $100-$150, one to 1 & 1/2meters.

My system opened up immediately and with-in 2-3 weeks they were well broken-in and, my ears that had gleefully grown fond of the more apparent and realistic highs along with a more rounded and full-bodied bass, something I read about achieving in practically every magazine/article at the time. And no, they didn't color the output sound, they merely allowed it to come through. I found myself finally admitting of how much bargain-basement cables hold back on sound. It was like getting out of a choke-hold.

It wasn’t long before I went out bought more and installed these new better cables on every source  component in my system. The result was finally I was listening to crystalline highs, and more authoritative bass while the mids came forward full-bodied instead of seeming half-baked as before.

In the future I intend to make further improvements with costlier cables though, I'm more than satisfied with my system now. I maintain there might always be something better out there as that's the way of the world. Those in denial of that fact are easy to spot, ask to see their system or speak of valid experience not parroted words they may have read on some forum.

So when someone says to me that cables don’t make a difference it indicates I’m doing the correct thing and no, no need to over-analyze anything except to enjoy the musical piece I’m listening to as it takes me on a musical excursion and become closer to the music.

FM

[Andre_Db66]

As i said perpetual...

Reward vs investment is not worth the trouble to me. I would rather find another amplifier or perhaps speaker that gives that same crisp performance. If musicians can play over generic cables why would reproduction of music be any different. Yes to some ears it produces different attenuation within the sound reproduction chain, but changing from a tube amp to a good solid state and then class D has much more impact. Some source material however will never sound right because the recording is produced in a low standard. There are many ways to crank that up to par. Cables is perhaps the cherry on a cake that has been eaten everyday for many decades. All i am saying is that it seems a neverending story to find the ultimate cables for interlink or speakers. Paying 10k for interlinks is something  for the filthy rich who can afford diamonds on the rims of their wheels on their favourite maybach. I read about the prices that some are having to pay for that extravagance but even if i had that kind of financial freedom, i still find it foolish.

I stick to exchanging something that is much more obvious. Like a single end 300b 8 watt tube amp with broadband philips drivers of 10 watt (true hifi) for a Krell on a set of JBL where i can crank up the volume up seriously, listening to exactly the same linearity but crazy loud. If i need even louder, perhaps i will flick the switches on a crown k2 and 3 x yamaha pc2602 inflicting 4kw on my neighbours and still enjoy the same linearity without having to worry about the petty changes a few interlinks can make at a cost more than all the aforementioned gear combined... ludicrous

Each his own... this is not what i meant with upstream. If one is satisfied with amp preamp source speakers, getting to know this like groundhog day, yes the search for interlinks or speaker cables becomes the next step because there has to be something to want or dream of.

I admit i have GAS issues, but i can even convince my wife something actually sounds better. With interlinks i dont even succeed convincing myself. WAF is not an issue with all the gear i bring home, not having an explanation for a set of inters for lets say 2.5k i think i would lose her love eventually...

For example, how many cartidges should one own for a record player that can hold only one. I know of people who have drawers full of them and not cheap ones. However, they posess only 1 of everything else in the chain. I respect that. Every cartridge is suited for certain types of music and each transforms the audio chain completely.

It all becomes very subjective at one point and i also respect that.

Again, bottom line, the chinese vc sound great, no need for super tweeters or HiVi replacements. Just some common sense, the right tools, and effort will do and keep the beloved speakers going fine.

Unfortunately i spent over 200 to find this out too late.... I have 6 HiVi new, never to be used by me. So wasteful. 20 bucks i can renew all my LST tweeters if necessary, go figure.

[frankmarsi]

As an easy to understand comparison that quality cables can make would be to compare a CRT TV to a modern day 4K TV. If one cannot discern the differences I speak of hopefully, with a valid learning  experience doing so at some point they will. Apparently, we have very different opinions of High Fidelity, I can see that in your fotos.

FM

[Andre_Db66]

1 hour ago, frankmarsi said:

As an easy to understand comparison that quality cables can make would be to compare a CRT TV to a modern day 4K TV.

They have nothing in common other than their sole purpose being visualisation of moving imagery. The technology to do this is 100% different and a very poor comparative example, as is a big block engine in a car... It does not resemble an amplifier in any way.

Apparently, we have very different opinions of High Fidelity, I can see that in your fotos.

Definitely, i concurr....

Luckily for me i do not have to worry about what cables might sound bette, so in the future and when my funds will allow me to purchase them. To add to my confusion what end is in and what end is out as to not upset the electrons in the cables...(or is that why the arrows are usually there for because otherwise i wouldnt be able to distinguish the audible difference? 🤔)

Viva la musica 😁

Cheers 🍺

[Andre_Db66]

Post deleted

[genek]

A discussion about the relative performance of different speaker cables is offtopic for a branded speaker forum. If you want to have one, take it to the  Other Speakers and Electronics forum. Otherwise, I'll move it for you.

[Andre_Db66]

I know, i got baited...

My input has been silenced anyway...

[ReliaBill Engineer]

On 5/28/2024 at 1:16 PM, genek said:

Can you really call something that is highly damped overdamped if it was what produced the result you were looking for?

Damping is not a subjective thing. Results are designed in. Damping refers to killing a spring’s tendency to bounce when put in motion. Or causing a vibrating object to stop vibrating. 

You have under damped, critically damped, and over damped vibrating or ringing systems. Properties of material/physical mechanics. 

Critically damped refers to allowing a spring to bounce once, then return to neutral position; think of a car’s shock absorber. Without the piston-oil damper, a car body will bounce for quite a while on its springs when the body is pushed down. With the shocks in place, you push down, the body goes down, rises, then stops.

Over damping means the springed object will move when pushed, then return to its neutral position. No second bounce.

Under damped means the bouncing or ringing will continue after the system is excited, but it doesn’t continue as long as a system with no damping.

 

Cones and domes are spring mounted. That’s what the spider does; acts as a spring and centering device. Without a damper, when the VC is excited, the cone or dome will bounce or “ring”.

While the AR domes don’t use a spider, they have a spring; that’s the butyl rubber membrane surround. But AR stuffs fiber glass batting under the dome, making it overdamped. Older units also used the foam “dollops” on the edge; more damping. 

The common silk domes use the skirt as a spring, centering device, and damping surround. They sound harsh when under damped, nice, clear and natural when critically damped, muffled and lifeless when over damped. Where, how much, and type of glue used to secure the silk dome skirt affects its sound.

 

 

 

[Andre_Db66]

Very insightful info.

What material would be suggested for batting under these linnen vc? I have a set of AR5 with these vc and i guess it would be a better starting point to use the original magnet, batting, rather, before finetuning with inductors and caps.

Going this path is a much better optiion than using HiVi tweeters that dont physically fit the cabinets. Achieving a good result like this shouldnt be impossible... given all the engineers in this forum.

[ReliaBill Engineer]

I’ve found on the silk domes that putting wool felt under the dome (not compressed, not contacting the dome) and using butyl sealant on just the very outer edge of the skirt works well. Then I apply a very thin wash (butyl sealant thinned to near water viscosity) of butyl sealant on the top of the skirt which makes a very nice, critically damped tweeter dome unit. 

It’s not about making a “highly compliant” surround. It’s about making a critically damped surround. I use a 1.2 volt battery to test. Once you’re used to the sound, you can hear the difference between an undamped, critically damped, and over damped tweeter, whether paper cone or silk dome, or hard dome.

Touching the VC terminals to the battery makes a “crackling” sound. You can hear a difference between the surround damping properties.

[Andre_Db66]

Thank you. That makes a useful starting point. I will experiment a little more

[Aadams]

2 hours ago, ReliaBill Engineer said:

Once you’re used to the sound, you can hear the difference between an undamped, critically damped, and over damped tweeter, whether paper cone or silk dome, or hard dome.

You have yet to show evidence that you are making these rebuilt 3/4' orange dot tweeters conform to these graphs that show 3db down at 5khz on a 24db /octave slope.  That slope is not built in to the crossover.

 

 

[ReliaBill Engineer]

2 hours ago, Aadams said:

You have yet to show evidence that you are making these rebuilt 3/4' orange dot tweeters conform to these graphs that show 3db down at 5khz on a 24db /octave slope.  That slope is not built in to the crossover.

 

 

You can’t look at a FR graph and see damping of a driver. That isn’t the purpose of the FR graphs, so it won’t show. FR is not damping.

No idea why you quote me, then mention XO slopes, either. Incidentally, the 24 dB/oct slope (@5k?) has to do with the XO cap and VC inductance. Neither of which I changed in the 2ax. 

Also, the level of super tweeter output (-3 dB?) is easily adjusted using the level control pot. I think you may have overlooked that.

Ive never worked with a 3/4” “orange” dot tweeter.

Trying to discredit me, based on what?

[ReliaBill Engineer]

2 hours ago, Aadams said:

You have yet to show evidence that you are making these rebuilt 3/4' orange dot tweeters conform to these graphs that show 3db down at 5khz on a 24db /octave slope.  That slope is not built in to the crossover.

 

 

BTW, I never pretended to replicate those graphs. I didn’t want to. I made that very clear.

Those graphs are made using a composite of separate responses for each driver, in particular the “super tweeter”. They don’t show (weren’t meant to) the interaction of the mid-tweet and super tweeter. 

So I don’t understand your criticisms. I think I understand your intent, however.

[Aadams]

1 hour ago, ReliaBill Engineer said:

Ive never worked with a 3/4” “orange” dot tweeter.

Trying to discredit me, based on what?

No intent to discredit.  Your mechanical work is quite skillful, but not everyone who visits this site knows or recalls that you are repairing tweeters and modifying speakers to meet personal goals.  "Operates to my satisfaction" is not the same as "Operates within factory specs" without verifiable evidence of some kind.    I recall your work on the Super tweeter, not the 3/4 inch, but from your writings in this thread and mentions in other threads regarding AR speakers, I  mistakenly assumed you must have squeezed in some 3/4 inch experience somewhere that I had missed.  Many of the latter posts in this thread reference moribund and dead 3/4 inch  tweeters.  No posts regarding orange domes after the first page.

This thread should have been split into 2 other non-AR threads long ago. 

 

 

[Andre_Db66]

Here is what i fail to see. The author of this thread is asking a legitimate question wether anyone saw the vc's. This forum's intent is on restoring AR speakers with the purpose of preserving the original sound and i assume also the closest to originality physically. If a chinese tweeter is advised here that resembles the original sound but doesnt physically fit properly, the performance graphs being so important, why doesnt anyone propose the alternative vc after having gone the length of experimenting until it meets the requirements?

After advice here on csp i bought 6 of those HiVi tweeters to replace them in LST2 not checking the fit. After receiving them i was very dissapointed to find out their physical misfit and they are now useless. I could not sell the LST2 with them mounted.

My point is that both criteria matter. From selling pov to anyone unfamiliar with the technical insight, a tweaked tweeter is much more appreciated than a non fitting. There must be a way to alter the original magnet together with a replacement vc to meet spec. That would have been much more useful info than the HiVi solution. I find it hard to believe that the performance could not be altered to fit the purpose, underligned with measured evidence. It seems to me the effort gets a stigma of being personal rather than benificiary to the community. Tweeter blowout has also been mentioned, perhaps yet another valid reason to dive into an affordable different solution than HiVi...?

I could have experimented on 60 vc's and perhaps finally get it right rather than buying 6 useless HiVi tweeters. If i had done my homework, i never would have bought those tweeters. It is all over CSP as the proposed solution. Why not disputed vc?

I hope someone feels tempted to tinker and provide bullitproof graphs. The latter is not my field unfortunately...

[Andre_Db66]

I got the advice to purchase the vc from a non tech friend who fixed his AR11 with them and he remains content. He also finds esthetics important as he plays them without grills. HIvi was not acceptable to him as a solution.

Later i found out these vc were also used professionally here in The Netherlands on a bigger scale. I know HiVi is also unacceptable to them as a solution, regardless of the sonic quality.

I mention above to indicate that it is not merely my craigslist induced interest to want affordable replacement voice coils. There is a valid reason to follow that path.

[genek]

13 hours ago, Aadams said:

This thread should have been split into 2 other non-AR threads long ago. 

I'm waiting to see if anyone provides a definitive answer about whether the product in question can successfully be used in a restoration. It's staying where it is for now because so far nobody has posted anything more than theories or second hand info.

 

[genek]

6 hours ago, Andre_Db66 said:

I could have experimented on 60 vc's and perhaps finally get it right rather than buying 6 useless HiVi tweeters. If i had done my homework, i never would have bought those tweeters. It is all over CSP as the proposed solution. Why not disputed vc?

Which HiVi did you buy? IIRC, the one frequently recommended before rebuild services and repros became available were bolt-in fits that only required an inductor to achieve the best sonic match.

There are only a few people posting here who have both the technical know-how and the inclination to experiment with untested parts. Most of us are just looking for "magic bullets" we can buy somewhere. And I find the idea that someone who cares about how speakers look without their grills is a fan of AR speakers rather perplexing. 🤔

[Andre_Db66]

I have read somewhere here on CSP someones comment of adapting the fit, marking it as a minor issue. The Hivi i received from soundimporteu also did not fit properly. The diameter of the opening being too large for the faceplate, in other words no material to place screws behind the faceplate. (Screws thus also not lining up)  I attempted to correct this with wood pulp and wood glue but it looked awkward. It didnt take an expert to determine this was patchwork. It was the Q1r HiVi solution i purchased...

Everyone is entitled to find both sonic beauty and esthetic beauty in their speakers as they please. I know many people who prefer grills off if only for sonic reasons. To find a none matching driver faceplate other than original behind the grill annoying, to me, is not abnormal. A beautiful painting in an ugly frame can also be disturbing visually. I also know people who find looking at the drivers chaotic and disturbing and find it soothing to have the grills on. Personally i dont care, but from sales pov it is a no go. People will scrutinize the apparent none-original drivers regardless of sonic qualities. With changed vc for one, this takes background knowledge to spot... I encountered this as mentioned when trying to sell a pair of LST2. I only managed to sell them when i returned them to original state. On craigslist there is now a set of LST with renewed tweeter vc, no mentioning chinese origin(apparantly not important). A good price has been offered and i am talking 400€ more than what i paid for my own LST which are in factory condition with refurbished grill cloth and XO. (All added value)

I am certain neither pair will sell when offered with HiVi alteration implemented.

 

[genek]

I would think that the origin and response curve of the "renewed" vc would be important to a knowledgeable buyer wanting an original LST.

Unfortunately, there's probably no way of knowing what the final outcome of a Craigslist sale turns out to be.

[Andre_Db66]

At this point i have felt and am cutting it to size because not using resonance damping indeed was a wrong choice. I will start with AR5 tweeters as those speakers need to be examined again.

If that is succesful i will see about a coil in parallel as by this time at least i can measure Henry values. I will make the inductors and alter them to the values best serving. It was mentioned i can use mic, freeware and a pc to obtain measuring tools. Maybe i can expand my horizon, as my attempt to fully refurbish a Sansui AU919 was succesful. Also building a set of speakers with AR type of DIY cabinet and XO with Philips tweeter and KEF B110 bass driver was a great succes. I have now produced a one-of bookshelf acoustic suspension loudspeaker set. They sound fabulous. 6uF cap and 360uF inductor and Lpads

The tube amp i also built myself and is a single ended EL84 driven by EF86 rectifier EZ81 by Mullard schematic found here:

https://www.heatedcathode.com/3w-single-ended-class-a-stereo-tube-amplifier/model-1955-gen2-el84-se-amplifier/

No affiliation...

Cabinet purple heart hard wood point to point wiring. The speakers i built are playing through the refurbished Sansui au919. Very sweet. They are primarily a LS3/5a clone but now mixed with AR knowhow.

I am thinking of building biwired AR94ER with 8" 4R alnico bass/mid, 4R ferrite bass, AR6 tweeter. Most likely a reason to start a dedicated topic when the time comes. I have 2 sets of AR6 and wanted to turn that into a floorstanding loudspeaker with more internal volume rather than stacked. Biwiring rather because i do not have 8R woofers.