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Best value in AR speakers?


gcrimmins

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I've been watching E-Bay lately to see what AR speakers are available, and what they are selling for. I'm watching with amusement/amazement a nice pair of AR-1's that are at more than $900 each! Clearly this model of speaker has become too collectable to be a good value for someone who just wants to listen to the speakers. It also appears that the prices of the AR-3 and 3a are being driven up a bit by the high demand for these models. But some other models seem to sell for fairly low prices. So my question is this: Which AR speakers offer the best value for those who just want to use them? Which models offer the best "bass for the buck," if you will. I'm just curious what everyone thinks.

--Geoff

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>I've been watching E-Bay lately to see what AR speakers are

>available, and what they are selling for. I'm watching with

>amusement/amazement a nice pair of AR-1's that are at more

>than $900 each! Clearly this model of speaker has become too

>collectable to be a good value for someone who just wants to

>listen to the speakers. It also appears that the prices of the

>AR-3 and 3a are being driven up a bit by the high demand for

>these models. But some other models seem to sell for fairly

>low prices. So my question is this: Which AR speakers offer

>the best value for those who just want to use them? Which

>models offer the best "bass for the buck," if you will. I'm

>just curious what everyone thinks.

>

>--Geoff

Hi Geoff

My personnal favourite speaker of all time has to be without a doubt the AR-4x.

Low price cost, good construction quality and very listenable sound for the dollar.

There is a handful of speakers close to being in the same ballpark, such as, EPI 100, Dynaco A-25, ADC 404, KLH Seventeen and I am sure I could go on and on.

Best speaker bass for the buck would be my choice of the AR-3A, bar none. As a bonus very smooth midrange and highs and able to handle oodles of power as well.

The prices are high most often on ebay, then a pair of AR-3A's will go for cheap. The AR-3'S seem to be going upwards of $1,000.00 a pair.

I wrote today to a seller on ebay that a pair of Acoustic Research AR speaker were not AR, also the drivers, were not AR and the crossover was not AR.

On the non-AR grill cloth was a AR logo fastened on the bottom.

The seller updated the ad later by adding the word (branded) to the title.

I believe there is some shysters on ebay playing with our languages.

What I mean is, a pair of LST-2's were just on ebay last week and went for just under $600.00 US plus s&h.

If one read the description, and I did, by the time you get to the middle of the long paragraph my pulse was improved and I was drooling.

Then out of the blue it said briefly that, "Oh yeah by the way all 6 tweeters don't work," they should be repairable. Then the paragraph continued.

I interpreted what was written as a detail bearing no more importance than there may be a few slight scratches.

If I read this right, an Asian, to chose one area of the world, who did not have perfect English comprehension, this small detail might not be noticed.

I wonder how many readers and bidders did not notice this small, insignificant fact who are english speaking?

I think policing is an important step in the ebay process.

Oh yes, another writter wrote in that he thought the drivers were maybe Electrovoice, I believe.

This was before the (branding) change and my comment was not posted.

Let the buyer beware and always ask for help on this web site.

Good luck and I welcome your feedback.

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Have to agree with Vern. I too like the 4x. Picked them up at garage sales for as low as $15 needing pots restored and the most $125 for a pair restored. Also have picked ups 2ax's and 3a's locally. Check your local penny saver, garage and estate sales. I find the best prices are local purchases as the price is not driven up such as you see on ebay. Also you have a chance to inspect to see what kind of shape they are in.

Running two pair in the master bedroom off my Fisher 800-C and they sound great with rich bass tones.

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My vote goes to the early 2ax with the Alnico magnet and cloth surround....a three way speaker which also has the 3's dome tweeter. Often you can find a good pair for around $50 which is a fantastic buy when compared to the high prices being realized for the AR 1 , 3 & 3a. The 1965 review by High Fidelity Magazine raved about the 2ax, saying it's performance was rather close to the AR 3...but that it's bass response could not match the 3's 12" woofer. It's price was about half as much at about $125. A great buy back then, and still a great buy today !

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Certainly NOT the AR3. A beat up, scratched pair just went for $540.00 on EBay. I think a far east dude was the winner.

If you can get an AR2a or AR-2 then do it now. The AR-4x sounds like a great option also.

If this is an Asian fetish thing then when the AR3s run dry they'll turn to the 3a's, etc, etc. Look what has happened to the Altecs.

I have 2 pair of AR3a's but I would not get suckered into the pyramid game if I didn't have them. And I certainly would not pay $540.00 for a marginal pair of AR3's. It's foolishness. Above all, I want good sound. And once again, while I think AR's are great, I think they are great because the are (and hopefully will remain) a bargain. Once they approach the cost of a high end used pair of B&W's, I would jump ship in a heartbeat. No offense to anyone here. Honestly.

This is a hobby for me and I enjoy it. But I also enjoy the quest. For cheap that is. I picked up my 2 pair of AR3a's about 6 years ago while the "horn" speaker with "100+db/watt @ 1 meter" was at it's pinnacle.

Good Luck! Hope you score a pair! I'll keep my eyes peeled.

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This is an interesting question. A speaker’s performance is always more than just what the "numbers" would suggest, as the interaction of different driver/crossover combinations and the psychoacoustic effect of subtly different system balances play a significant role in the overall perception of a speaker’s character.

The 3a and 5 are perfect examples of this. With essentially "identical" midranges and tweeters, the only difference between the two ‘should’ be that the 3a goes deeper. But this is clearly not the case. With its somewhat lighter overall bass balance, the 5 takes on what many listeners consider to be a different character than the 3a, losing that slightly thick, heavy feel and giving the 5 a somewhat more athletic, light-on-its-feet performance. The 5 also loses that authoritative, almost magisterial command that the 3a has, and becomes, in direct comparison, merely a very good medium-sized speaker, while the 3a is the master of its domain.

So with this as a backdrop, and the reality of the unpredictability of performance based strictly on numbers, here’s my take on the new 2ax vs. the 5. (A friend of mine had 5’s and we compared my 2ax’s to his 5’s side-by-side on many occasions.)

Both speakers had the same tweeter and the same woofer, in exactly the same cabinet. The ‘only" differences were the 5 used the 8-ohm version of the 1 1/2" dome mid crossing over at 650 Hz (later 550 Hz), while the 2ax used the 3 1/2" mid with the yellow fiber covering and metal mesh, crossing over at 1400 Hz. Both speakers crossed over from their mids to the 3/4" dome at 5000 Hz.

"Numbers" would have predicted that the main differences were that the 5 had a little more mid detail and sounded a little less "boxy" since the mid dispersion was somewhat better. The highs and lows would have been the same.

However, to my ears, it was a little more than just that. The 5, by virtue of the 1 1/2" dome mid’s truly superb performance, had an overall refinement and accuracy to its sound that the 2ax didn’t have. Now, I’ve been on record as saying that in my opinion, the 2ax was the best overall price-to-performance model in the Classic lineup, and I still feel that way. But the impression I got when listening to the 5 compared to the 2ax was that one speaker was just in a slightly different category of refinement than the other. Listening to the 2ax, even without comparing it to something else, I was aware of its limitations. Listening to the 5, without comparing directly to something better, I wasn’t immediately aware of its limitations. Over the frequency range it covered, the 5 did so about as well as could be done in 1971. The same could not be said of the 2ax.

Was the 5 worth the extra 100 bucks a pair compared to the 2ax? Sure. But buyer psychology being what it was, most customers adopted the "Hey, in for a penny, in for a pound" attitude and opted for the 3a if they were going to buy something better than the 2ax. The 5’s sales were never that spectacular.

Steve F.

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I'm sure there are still some deals to be found at yard sales and thrift shops on AR-3's and AR-3a's. But if I can't find any, is there anything close in quality and bass response from another manufacturer? I hate to even consider that, but I'd rather do that than pay $540 for a pair of AR-3's. I know several of AR's early designers later worked for other manufacturers. Did any memorable speakers result?

--Geoff

>I have 2 pair of AR3a's but I would not get suckered into the

>pyramid game if I didn't have them. And I certainly would not

>pay $540.00 for a marginal pair of AR3's. It's foolishness.

>Above all, I want good sound. And once again, while I think

>AR's are great, I think they are great because the are (and

>hopefully will remain) a bargain. Once they approach the cost

>of a high end used pair of B&W's, I would jump ship in a

>heartbeat. No offense to anyone here. Honestly.

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Hi Geoff;

Yes, there was at the time, and mostly thereafter comparable sounding speakers of other brand names for most all AR models.

I don't see that the older original AR-1 and later, up to the original AR-LST, were copied by AR but were often copied by someone elselater.

After all Ed Vilchur and Henry Kloss, together, brought the acoustic suspension invention to the forefront as I know it.

This system made possible for a system the size of a TV to re-produce deep base rather than the refrigerator or deep freeze sized models that were generally much more efficent at that time but much larger when only one was needed for monaural.

I am sure that the price was also more reasionable for the AR speaker system compared to the more efficient models as well.

There was a limitation of amplifier power at that time but manufacturers soon saw an opportunity and the demand was also there for Phase Linear 700's and Crown DC-300's and many others.

I believe that the super amps were probably not meant for domestic use but rather commercial applications initially.

For the AR-3 which un-doubtedly revolutionized hi-fi like no other single entry speaker system into being at that time.

Such as a full-range single enclosure system with matching drivers for all intent and purpose, which spanned an un-heard of say about 35 hz -15,000 hz with terrible efficiency of around 3/4 of 1% at that time and considerable power handling capabilities.

Dome mid-range and tweeter with un-paralleled dispersion and smooth predictable energy characteristics at the time.

I am sure there will be comments on my write-up and I welcome your feedback.

>I'm sure there are still some deals to be found at yard sales

>and thrift shops on AR-3's and AR-3a's. But if I can't find

>any, is there anything close in quality and bass response from

>another manufacturer? I hate to even consider that, but I'd

>rather do that than pay $540 for a pair of AR-3's. I know

>several of AR's early designers later worked for other

>manufacturers. Did any memorable speakers result?

>

>--Geoff

>

>>I have 2 pair of AR3a's but I would not get suckered into

>the

>>pyramid game if I didn't have them. And I certainly would

>not

>>pay $540.00 for a marginal pair of AR3's. It's foolishness.

>>Above all, I want good sound. And once again, while I think

>>AR's are great, I think they are great because the are (and

>>hopefully will remain) a bargain. Once they approach the

>cost

>>of a high end used pair of B&W's, I would jump ship in a

>>heartbeat. No offense to anyone here. Honestly.

>

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>Hi Geoff;

>

>

>Yes, there was at the time, and mostly thereafter comparable

>sounding speakers of other brand names for most all AR

>models.

>

>I don't see that the older original AR-1 and later, up to the

>original AR-LST, were copied by AR but were often copied by

>someone elselater.

>

>After all Ed Vilchur and Henry Kloss, together, brought the

>acoustic suspension invention to the forefront as I know it.

>

>This system made possible for a system the size of a TV to

>re-produce deep base rather than the refrigerator or deep

>freeze sized models that were generally much more efficent at

>that time but much larger when only one was needed for

>monaural.

>

>I am sure that the price was also more reasionable for the AR

>speaker system compared to the more efficient models as well.

>

>There was a limitation of amplifier power at that time but

>manufacturers soon saw an opportunity and the demand was also

>there for Phase Linear 700's and Crown DC-300's and many

>others.

>

>I believe that the super amps were probably not meant for

>domestic use but rather commercial applications initially.

>

>

>For the AR-3 which un-doubtedly revolutionized hi-fi like no

>other single entry speaker system into being at that time.

>

>Such as a full-range single enclosure system with matching

>drivers for all intent and purpose, which spanned an un-heard

>of say about 35 hz -15,000 hz with terrible efficiency of

>around 3/4 of 1% at that time and considerable power handling

>capabilities.

>

>Dome mid-range and tweeter with un-paralleled dispersion and

>smooth predictable energy characteristics at the time.

>

>I am sure there will be comments on my write-up and I welcome

>your feedback.

>

>>I'm sure there are still some deals to be found at yard

>sales

>>and thrift shops on AR-3's and AR-3a's. But if I can't find

>>any, is there anything close in quality and bass response

>from

>>another manufacturer? I hate to even consider that, but I'd

>>rather do that than pay $540 for a pair of AR-3's. I know

>>several of AR's early designers later worked for other

>>manufacturers. Did any memorable speakers result?

>>

>>--Geoff

>>

>>>I have 2 pair of AR3a's but I would not get suckered into

>>the

>>>pyramid game if I didn't have them. And I certainly would

>>not

>>>pay $540.00 for a marginal pair of AR3's. It's foolishness.

>>>Above all, I want good sound. And once again, while I think

>>>AR's are great, I think they are great because the are (and

>>>hopefully will remain) a bargain. Once they approach the

>>cost

>>>of a high end used pair of B&W's, I would jump ship in a

>>>heartbeat. No offense to anyone here. Honestly.

I am continuing on with my rattle again.

I was afraid that the program would time-out and I would lose everthing I had typed in.

Ok now my reasoning.

AR-3A had a similar comparable competitor, and that was, later when Henry Kloss was at KLH, and I believe he created the KLH Twelve model speaker system.

I personally cannot attest to this comparison, but Consumers Guide magazine ( not Consumer Reports magazine ) commented that the AR-3A

or KLH Twelve ( not numbers ) were comparable and there best and best buy if I remember correctly choose whichever you liked best. They may have noted their size and weight then. Their prices were within $25.00 US retail of each other, I believe.

I never saw a pair of Twelves or even a picture, so I was not aware that the Twelves were about twice the size of the AR-3A's, in frontal size.

A tad too large for a regular shelf.

A floor mounted system by design.

About 75 +/- pounds.

A 12" acoustic suspension woofer, 2 - 5" cone midranges and a single cone tweeter.

They had a switchable crossover which was either attached at the rear of it's enclosure by Velcro or up to 40' away via a supplied 4 conductor cable harness. This was so you could adjust the mids and highs only to suit at your listening area.

Sort of a remote control with an umbilical cord.

The AR-5 was similar sounding to the KLH Five.

The AR-4X was comparable to the KLH Seventeen, EPI 100, Dynaco A-25, ADC 404, and maybe KLH Six.

The AR-2AX was probably comparable to the KLH Six.

The AR-LST's were comparable to the Cello Amati's I believe.

I have not for example indicated the Bose 901's, because of their direct/reflected sound was not an AR issue. These were and are still appreciated by their owners for their own unique room filling ability.

Each of the few examples I have given, still, have a different sound but are similar.

I also did not mention Allison because I never heard a pair here.

There is still many other models and brand names I did not mention but I am sure others will add to the list or disagree with my list.

Please help out with your feedback fellow readers and hifi buffs.

Perhaps a list can be developed for the sake of interests to all.

I find this hobby relaxing and everyone has their own likes and dislikes as you all well know.

Ever have someone start to talk a AR nut into buying a non-AR product and I mean of the old classics pre-LST's?

Have a great night.

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Hi there

Thank you for your feedback.

You may well be correct. The woofer is at the bottom front of the cabinet and being a floor cabinet I would tend to think that as well.

The remote control crossover has 4 different adjustments of boost and cut by about +/- 2 dB I believe.

The woofer doesn't have any level adjustments.

I sensed a really dramtic difference when I connected up a Crown DC-300a and Crown IC-150 pre-amp from my AR amp.

As I tried to explain in another topic, I left my living room for another part of my house and I felt the gut massaging bass that was not there with the AR amp in that other room.

In the living room there was bass with the AR amp but not gut massaging.

This was at a low level, not a listening session.

I felt that the Crown combo was very much superior in the deepest bass at low listening levels.

I arrived at this judgement in about the first 30 seconds of feeling/listening, not minutes or hours of listening.

A friend bought the Phase Linear 700 which he still owns with AR-LST's and also AR-3A's.

I described in another write-up, about a session at his home where cables were disconneted with the system.

Two separate transients, which I am sure everyone on this site would have smiled to have heard and felt was enjoyed by us, except his surprised girlfriend sitting right next to one of the speakers.

Power reserve?

Higher damping factor?

I will have to setup a pair of 3A's and KLH Twelves and do a A - B comparison.

I have mentioned at least a few times on classicspeakers web site that I had the opportunity to borrow a pair of Janszen 130's and Microstatic tweeters when they were new.

Using them with my AR-3A's and AR amp ( tone controls at neutral ) we had a great listening session, I can still hear Simon and Garfunkel's Cecelia and that was probably the early or mid '70's.

The 3A with it's 575 hz crossover with the mids and tweeters un-jumpered and the 16 ohm Janszen's and the Microstatics were a clear demonstration of the different technologies and phylosophies.

When I went back to just the AR-3A system I said where did the tweeters go to.

This may have been an overly bright and projected experience compared to the soft and subdued AR's mids and highs.

It was like someone had really turned down the mids and highs though, very dramtic.

I forget the previous owner's name on this site whom owned the Microstatics at one time, and gave them to his brother and I believe he found them too bright, I hope he adds feedback to this topic.

I have always felt that all of the AR speakers I have owned except the LST's perhaps are bass heavy, treble shy, tilting from a higher bass output to a lower level highs.

I also feel that the AR amp and tuner also sound the same.

Almost like there is an ever so slight bass boost and treble cut.

On their own I have enjoyed them all.

When I first owned a pair of AR-4X's, we used to listen to FM at night, and turn down the lights.

We would often say, doesn't that sound real, over and over again.

>Vern -

>I heard a pair of KLH Model Twelves in a showroom many years

>ago, and can only recall an impression of bass-heaviness -

>this could have been caused by the room's not-so-great setup,

>but the Twelves really stood out as being tilted toward the

>bottom-end.

>

>

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