ReggaeBen Posted February 24, 2018 Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 Greetings all, This is my first post here however I've read alot of great posts regarding AR speakers and other technical goodness from you all. I came across a pair of 5's at a fair price (400 Aus $), I then asked for photos with the grills removed. The photos showed a non original woofer, I was disappointed and then realized that there could be other potential problems the original owners did not know about. So I made a deal for $200 and had them collected for me buy a friend. After opening each speaker I see the non original woffer was of very cheap build and not serves duty as a door stop The other problems found are bypassed potts and 1 missing with an l-pad in its place. The other concerning thing is that the mid and woofer caps have been removed and in place is a single 3.3uf dayton poly! (Not sure yet if it's connected with mid or woffer) It's wrong how something can be sent in for repair and given back to a customer this way.. Now I have bough an AR-5 woofer that matches on my DMM. I plan to go with NPE either bennic, parts express brand or erse and probably will use a bypass dayton F&F 0.01. Can anyone comment on this sound from these caps in their own 5's? I would like some advice however on selecting the right L-pads and parallel resistor for this, being that I have 3 original rheostats I will clean them all and likely use only 2 + the 2 L-pads just to keep things uniform on each speaker. Should I use the L-pads for the tweeters of mids? or shouldn't it matter? Thanks in advance! Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aadams Posted February 24, 2018 Report Share Posted February 24, 2018 Ben Your 5s have been buggered. I have attached a photo of the inside of an unmolested AR5. I can't really tell what is going on in yours but there are folks here that will help though you may not hear from them till Monday. And here is an AR 5 restoration thread Standby. Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReggaeBen Posted February 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 Yes they sure need some attention. The link you attached has given me a good guide to follow, thank you. Because I'm currently working at sea means I can't delve into the speakers to do work, however I can get the right parts together for when I return home. I will take be taking my time on this job, don't want to make careless mistakes so I'll be sure on taking lots of photos and asking questions! Are these the correct L-pads to use? https://www.parts-express.com/speaker-l-pad-attenuator-15w-mono-3-8-shaft-8-ohm--260-248 About the parallel resistor, could someone please attach the type to use from PE? Regards Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aadams Posted February 27, 2018 Report Share Posted February 27, 2018 Pretty sure this it 10 ohm 25 watt and you might want to use the longer stemmed lpads. If you haven't downloaded the AR3 restoration guide now would be a good time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReggaeBen Posted May 22, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 Greetings all So I'm back to getting these 5's together and here's what I've done so far.. *Aquired correct AR5 woofer. *Brought another Mid for a spare. *Tested all drivers with 1.5v batt, all ok. *Removed pots (3 only) cleaned and tested okay. *Cleaned out inside of cabs. I actually can only do limited work right now as I'm nursing a broken collar bone ?, it's veeery frustrating! Anyhow, I'm thinking I will buy 2 L-pads instead of just the one that I require , that way keeping things matched and new plus having a spare AP rheostat. I was thinking of these 16 ohm l-pads instead of the 8ohm, any reasons I shouldn't? And where would they be better used on, tweeters or mids? https://www.parts-express.com/speaker-l-pad-attenuator-50w-mono-3-8-shaft-16-ohm--260-254 Caps are pretty well chosen, all parts express npe with bypass f&f. For the surrounds the Boston Acoustics filled fillet seem to get the best rap, then the JBL's, so I'll go with the BA's. Which tpye of glue should I consider? Lastly I think I only need to order some new 10" seals, I know people have many ways of doing this but I'm just wanting to get a pair since I'm ordering from Australia and might as well get everything in one hit. Cheers Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lARrybody Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 Greetings from the US Midwest. Your original choice of the 8 ohm 3/8 in shaft L-pads are correct. Remember to get the 25 ohm resisters for them. Your choice of the Boston filled fillet type surrounds is excellent. I strongly suggest you download and read the AR3a restoration guide found here. A lot of the information there is relevant to your AR 5 speakers. As far as sealing the woofers there are many options. You can cut the gaskets out of some thin closed cell foam, You can use duct seal electrical conduit sealer to form the seals. Maybe even rope caulk. I personally like the foam gasket tape Parts Express sells or the speaker sealing caulk strips they also sell if you want to go back with something like the original. The most important thing is that you get a air tight seal. I have two pairs of 5's that I play together and thoroughly enjoy.. Good luck on your restoration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReggaeBen Posted May 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 Hi again, Thank you for the sound advice you have given and yes the guide does make an excellent reference. My curiosity though is still dwelling on what will differ from a comparison of the two variables A) using a 16 ohm l-pad over the 8 ohm B It being rated for 50W instead of 25W Would the 16 ohm would react to adjustments closer to the original rheostats than the 8 ohm? As this is still rather new ground for me I'm sure I could be unclear here (and why I ask before carrying out the task) but also possibly on the right track with this option? Btw I noticed a seller on an auction site selling a 15 ohm l-pad described as an AR factory replacement. Hope to hear back some more helpful advise, It's all very encouraging to me.. Regards Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ra.ra Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 40 minutes ago, ReggaeBen said: It being rated for 50W instead of 25W The 8-ohm L-pad is the correct L-pad for this application. The higher wattage rating is unnecessary but would work fine - - - however, you should be aware that the 50w L-pads are dimensionally larger. In pic attached, the round 25W is 1-5/8" (41 mm); the octagonal 50W is 2" (50 mm); and the round 100W is 2-1/2" (64 mm), so you need to take this into account when planning your replacement components. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReggaeBen Posted May 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 Hey thanks for putting up those dimensions, I had considered their size but didn’t find the specs so thats very handy to have now seen. Yep I thought I'd understood the wattage factor too as just as you described. Now if I could get any more of an explanation just as to how the 8 ohm and 16 ohm would work differently? As I've noticed through cleaning and testing the rheostat, at the "mid" point it reads 8 ohm then decreases to 1 ohm and up to 16 ohm depending on the direction of turn. Will the 16 ohm l-pad mimic this same readings at the same positions too, will the 8 ohm l-pad? Sorry if I seem to ask many questions on the same topic, I'm not challenging at all the advice passed on to me, I know it does work well, its just I analyze things somewhat and hey it could lead to a discovery of a new approach to an application! Many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReggaeBen Posted May 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 I'm widening my understanding of L-pads and pots through various online reading, it's not quite as simple as it seems just replace an ohm for ohm etc part. The picture should become clear to me soon and I can order the chosen parts and move onto another piece of the restoration puzzle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReggaeBen Posted June 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2018 Hi, Some progress has been made with my refresh of the 5's, I'm now able to hear them play and I really like them so far. Still need to refoam because I have no prior experience but will do this quite soon as one surround is fresh and of a different roll size so their sound is slightly imbalanced. I found a pair of reconditioned rheostats that are now in place, I like to keep with originality in some cases. Working on the crossovers was fiddly from there being not a lot of room to move and I found it important to take care with soldering and not to burn your fingers!! Caps were all measured and matched for thier Uf and ESR, then glued with contact adhesive, nice and simple. I made an outline with pencil on the woofer baffle then used a fine artist brush and applied a few coats of clear varnish to fill in around where the woofer seats. This will help create a good seal along with the new caulk strips. Fibreglass was weighed for 22 ounces and firstly packed around crossover then stuffed elsewhere trying to get an even distribution throughout, and then finished with some very breathable tight knit cotton placed behind the woofer. Next up is to- *Refoam and shim. *Reseal tweet and mid.. if necessary? as its unlikely they've ever been removed and looks like special care will be needed to remove. *Make a fused link in the speakers cables for protection. Once all this is done then I'd like to learn about doing a test to assess the sound quality from the drivers ensuring that the are actually performing to spec. I welcome suggestions for doing this that would be suitable for a beginner to follow and not come at much cost. Keep enjoying your own projects as I've done with mine and thanks for reading. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReggaeBen Posted June 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2018 Can anyone advise me where is a place to start regarding shim thickness for this model woofer?, I'll use a micrometer tomorrow. Ty. Update- have found the shim size to be between .007-.01 inch. Now on the refoaming, do I need to remove the plastic mesh screens on the basket so I can then have better control of the cone to glue on the surround? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aadams Posted June 20, 2018 Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 Page 3 of this thread tells you about shims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReggaeBen Posted June 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2018 Thanks, I had seen this thread, very helpful. I did one woofer and it was a bit of a challenge being the first, but I feel the ones following should be no worries. After putting the last screw in the woofer baffle I began to get excited to play it. Once hooked up and music flowing, I picked up a sound coming from the woofer,, my heart sunk into my stomach, what happened?? Used a 30hz test tone and it's a found out it's got rubbing, did I goof it up?, not entirely. I remember the shims being a bit tight on one section in the gap so I thought I'd better not use to much force or risk damaging something, so I just moved the shim to the side a little not knowing any better (rookie mistake). I managed to lift the outer surround lip from the basket without damage, didn't want to use solvent just a thin fitting blade. I will actually resuse the surround as It looks fine and to get another means $ and shipping from USA. Turns out there is damage one the pole around where the coil is visable on the former. The plan is to use a micro dental polishing strip and a vacuum of course to take out any highs and then use a clear plastic shim to go around again to detect for any scratch showing up on the shim. All simple stuff ? Otherwise it's off with the spider but that glue looks really tuff. Keep ya'll posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReggaeBen Posted November 29, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2018 Hello everyone, Today I did a speaker rotation and hooked up my 5's for the first time in a while. Man, do they make everything sound so great! Unfortunately there is still a rub in the VC of the replacement woofer #200004-2 (3903-3) dated 74, this and the original both share same year and part numbers. The woofer does not perform as the original so I'm thinking it may never as I've tried shimming and centering the best I can. Currently available to me are a pair of 200004-2 from a pair of AR-12's, these are dated the year 80. After gathering up info from here I found the AR parts list showing that the 200004-2 woofer was not meant to replace the AR5 and LST-2, which required the 200004-3. However seems that folks use them and are happy with the outcome, leaves me wondering if I try find a single #-3 in good shape or a nice pair of #-2's. Would the circa 1980 AR12 woofers potentially have an aluminum VC, would this need to be considered also? Interested to hear comments from those who may have heard 5's with substitute woofers. Best Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aadams Posted November 29, 2018 Report Share Posted November 29, 2018 1 hour ago, ReggaeBen said: Currently available to me are a pair of 200004-2 from a pair of AR-12's, these are dated the year 80 It would be much easier to adapt a late AR2ax woofer than an AR14 and they are much more numerous. Being in Australia perhaps changes the problem a bit but if you install any other woofer it is no longer an AR5. Also, a potentially bigger issue is your tweeter. If the tweeters have not been rebuilt then it would a be miracle for them to be performing at all close to original. Consider a HI Vi mod if you can't get your originals rebuilt for a reasonable price. When the AR5 is working correctly it is at least as good as an AR3a down to 50hz. You should wait for the proper woofer. IMO. Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReggaeBen Posted November 29, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2018 Originality is a big factor for me, being both a functional and psychological one. I'm going to eventually get the tweeters rebuilt seeing that it's now possible, sooner the better so it seems, but just need to find the time like with all of my other 101 projects! You're right Adams, with supply being so thin here in Aus it makes choosing more difficult and people seem to charge "vintage tax" while not knowing any great deal about the part anyway. Perseverance is key. Thank you for the clarification about the 200004-2 style woofer being not quite suited to the AR-5. Regarding the late 2ax woofer, I'm unaware of the similarities here, I do know that the late tweeter was the same as the 5's, is it the case with the woofer too? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aadams Posted November 29, 2018 Report Share Posted November 29, 2018 7 minutes ago, ReggaeBen said: Regarding the late 2ax woofer, I'm unaware of the similarities here, I do know that the late tweeter was the same as the 5's, is it the case with the woofer too? The 4 hole mount woofer for the 2ax and 5 are interchangeable but the mid to late 70s replacement version is more sensitive than the original version. The advice I received, which I implemented, was to add a 1 ohm resistor in line to make the later woofer behave very similar to the original. Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReggaeBen Posted November 29, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2018 Great advice, I'll begin the search now and post my potential findings. Best, Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakecat Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 I have the AR12's and like them better than the AR5's I have had. You might be quite happy with that woofer....especially being newer. I think it puts out better bass than the original 5 woofer. There is nothing that impressive about the original woofer anyway....IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReggaeBen Posted November 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 Thanks for your recommendation, I've never heard the AR12 or any of the other 10" line yet, so I can't personally compare. Can you briefly explain why you feel the AR5 to be lesser than the AR12 woofer, you say the 12's strong point is its bass output, perhaps this woffer was the most refined of all the 10"?, being a later production could perhaps explain so. I'd have them in a flash if they weren't around the price that I see you guys are picking up complete pairs of speakers for! I feel I should wait until the correct ones come my way, I'm going to lift the spider on this one first and see what arises. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakecat Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 44 minutes ago, ReggaeBen said: Thanks for your recommendation, I've never heard the AR12 or any of the other 10" line yet, so I can't personally compare. Can you briefly explain why you feel the AR5 to be lesser than the AR12 woofer, you say the 12's strong point is its bass output, perhaps this woffer was the most refined of all the 10"?, being a later production could perhaps explain so. I'd have them in a flash if they weren't around the price that I see you guys are picking up complete pairs of speakers for! I feel I should wait until the correct ones come my way, I'm going to lift the spider on this one first and see what arises. Ben I am a bass lover so my opinions are slanted that way. The woofer is a 2ax woofer and for AR to go to the trouble of making a 3a junior, they could have improved the woofer some. I was always using my loudness button on the 9090 to make it sound good unless I had the volume turned way up. I actually had 2ax's here with alnico woofer and tweeter from the AR3 that sounded better than the 5. I got the AR12's...knowing nothing about them..but were cheap cause hardly anyone else knew much about them. I had to refoam the mids...but when done and played them...was stunned at how nice they sounded. Nice bass and excellent midrange....and only made these for one year!...crazy. The 5 is an excellent speaker. Some like it better than even the 3a. All in what melts your butter...:)...but there is plenty of those woofers around. They made a ton of 2ax's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aadams Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 Based on crossover specs and its small cone mid, the ADD AR12 should, on axis , sound very similar to a correctly functioning AR5 but it has completely different drivers. Coming from a different volume box the 10" ADD is almost certainly not a drop in replacement, may require crossover mods and other tweaks as well, for which you will be our pioneer. In 7 years of looking at this forum I cannot recall the ADD 10" proposed as an AR classic woofer replacement. The AR 5 is not about the bass. The AR5 and the LST were the only other speakers AR EVER made that could mimic an AR3a above 50hz. IMO, neither the AR12, AR5, nor the AR14 have enough perceivable bass difference to worry about. If you want to hear substantial deep bass from an old AR you need a 12". I once owned both the AR14 and AR5 playing side by side the biggest difference was not the bass. Just my two cents. Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakecat Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 2 hours ago, Aadams said: Based on crossover specs and its small cone mid, the ADD AR12 should, on axis , sound very similar to a correctly functioning AR5 but it has completely different drivers. Coming from a different volume box the 10" ADD is almost certainly not a drop in replacement, may require crossover mods and other tweaks as well, for which you will be our pioneer. In 7 years of looking at this forum I cannot recall the ADD 10" proposed as an AR classic woofer replacement. The AR 5 is not about the bass. The AR5 and the LST were the only other speakers AR EVER made that could mimic an AR3a above 50hz. IMO, neither the AR12, AR5, nor the AR14 have enough perceivable bass difference to worry about. If you want to hear substantial deep bass from an old AR you need a 12". I once owned both the AR14 and AR5 playing side by side the biggest difference was not the bass. Just my two cents. Adams (In 7 years of looking at this forum I cannot recall the ADD 10" proposed as an AR classic woofer replacement. The AR 5 is not about the bass.) Bingo!....the AR12 was made for one year unfortunately. This site focuses on the earlier AR's so little info on later. What you will find is posts on looking how to improve bass on the AR5 with some suggesting the 10" alnico woofer from the 2ax line. The AR12 was advertised as their "rock n roll" speaker so it does perform. Side by side....it beat the AR5 in my house so it is opinions and giving mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aadams Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 40 minutes ago, lakecat said: Side by side....it beat the AR5 in my house so it is opinions and giving mine. I agree and what you say makes perfect sense. The bass of the 10" ADD had a lower 3db down point of around 44hz but that is only 4hz lower than 3db down point of the AR5 which makes it a bare two semitone difference for music purposes...........the distance between an F1 and a G1. On a piano keyboard, the distance inside the red circle below Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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