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Aadams

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  1. Aadams
    From the beginning this has been an experiment. One big concern was becoming so invested emotionally or financially that I could not admit failure or remain objective. I avoided the financial problem by refusing to spend money on anything that could not be employed in another system or given away without regret. The subjective, emotional investment was avoided by knowing that I always had 9s and 3as as reference and backup when I needed to calibrate my ears and if the experiment failed I would still have good sound. Because I have not moved this system into a big room to assess it directly against my 9s and 3as, I will not say that it is an unequivocal success but, in this small 1000cft room I find myself frequently smiling at what I hear and am astonished at how little effort and time it would have taken had I known the direct path at the time I started. The cost. If you have read the opening post to this thread you know the original cost included a new pair of powered sub-woofers for which I was willing to spend up to $1000 and was 80% of the budget. Except where noted below everything else was purchased used or already in my possession. After the sub-woofers were returned and this became a “Frankenstein” experiment the incremental cash outlay stood at around $200. In its current and final form, the total expenditure is very close to $750 as follows: Pre amp – Pioneer 850 that once drove AR58s system Equalizer- Realistic 10 band already in use with AR58s BA CR65 speakers x 6 Approx $30 each New Crown amp for 2 ohm load- $299 New Crown amp to isolate and drive AR58 woofer $250 New XLR cables $15 AR 58s – Previously used as separate system and AR9 standby parts bin. Total incremental cost was $744 If the project had failed the Crowns would be used on my 9s and 3s so there never was real fear of failure. Aadams
  2. Aadams
    I started this thread almost three years ago, at the time a little more ignorant than my current state. I am now confident there is no practical, cost effective, way to make four pairs of AR3as perform like 2 pairs of LSTs. This thread should be terminated and ignored. correction: 1 Pair of LSTs Adams
  3. Aadams
    Thanks. Check your feed. Also your message box is full again. Adams
  4. Aadams

    I googled and can't find anything on the Sherwood.  It doesn't appear to be current product.  I haven't said specifically in the thread but I am already using two Crown xls1002s with their built in crossovers.  Is the Sherwood a similar product.

     

    1. Aadams

      Aadams

      Ok.  I found one on ebay.  There was no operating manual so I am not certain it would do the job but it has now been surpassed by amps with DSPs integrated.  For example,The crown xls series allows frequency selection in 1/12 octave  increments per channel between 30 and 3000 hz. Crossover modes are HIgh, Low and Bandwidth.  It is a very cool product for a surprisingly small price and 5 year warranty. Combined rated power available at my rated impedance is 900watts per channel which is coincidence.  I just needed something that could carry a 2 ohm load.  And then I got another one to isolate the AR woofer.

       

  5. Aadams
    Keeping in mind the thread topic of woofer crossover points: For me imaging is a fortuitous by-product. I normally listen to these speakers at 12-15ft and just park my brain listening but sometimes one is drawn to the lyrics of a song. When there is a solo voice I begin to focus on intelligible lyrics within the balanced overall sound, which is how I came to discover this threshold difference between the 9 and the 3a. The speakers are sitting side by side, inches apart, on different amps, same source, same equalizer and attenuators at zero. The referenced passage is not absolutely clear on any speaker of mine at normal listening distant but is less so on the 3a. To hear it clearly on the 3a your ear needs to be almost in the driver, maybe 3" away at low volume. I know the woofer is doing its part but it does not reproduce frequencies much above the crossover point. If a performer sings a 440hz A, then the first natural harmonic is 880hz. With a 575hz crossover design, the fundamental and some overtones will be placed in the woofer and all prominent harmonics and remaining overtones are in the mid and that is what I hear. This is not true with the 9 or the 3 but it is for all other 3 way 12" ARs. It is not a problem I was just pointing out some arcana that can be demonstrated at my house with my limited resources and what I have observed when instruments are split by crossovers. This same effect can be observed by crossing a powered woofer in the low mid range and spatially separating it from the upper drivers. A vocal recording will seem to bounce from speaker to speaker And, I am not criticizing the 3a because I have never heard anything superior for presentation of orchestral recordings but, human voice can reveal its weakness perhaps because we are most sensitive to those frequencies and timbres in which we naturally communicate. Perhaps keenness for speech is why I have not read of Live vs Recorded tests being done with vocalists. Aadams
  6. Aadams
    Lots of options for speaker arrangement. The pictures show what seems optimal and very pleasant in this room. First one shows the 30 degree offset of the satellites. The second image is the view from the center line. I get a sweet spot up close and spaciousness when I move back. This is far better than the first generation of this hybrid.
  7. Aadams
    This brings attention back the point of greatest distortion at normal listening levels, the area around 300hz, which is only two semi-tones away from 262hz (Middle C) and the area around which most popular music vocals are performed. Here is an arcane bit of trivia. If you listen at the end of “Paradise by the Dashboard Lights” which is sung well below 500hz, you can clearly hear in one channel Mr. Loaf singing “It was long ago and far away ……………… while in the opposite channel Ellen Foley is singing a different lyric in counterpoint. The Ellen Foley lyric is not completely intelligible on a 3a but can be heard on a 9 or another speaker where the voice is carried in single driver. The arcane part is she can be heard clearly in the 3a up close in the mid-range driver alone as harmonics and overtones or in the woofer alone as fundamentals but back off and let the two sounds merge and it gets garbled. With a crossover above 300hz voices are split from their harmonics and overtones between the mid and the woofer. A crossover at 200hz puts almost all voice in a single driver as with a crossover at 1000hz. I don’t know if driver arrangement, distortion or woofer crossover point is the answer, but voices are clearer when the they are carried in a single driver IN MY EXPERIENCE. Hence the 4 way and maybe the inevitable de-emphasis of dispersion and power response. Adams
  8. Aadams
    Thanks, both of you. This post was pointing out that AR apparently saw a way to improvement in their full range TOTL by lowering the 12" woofer crossovers. It never got lower than 525hz until they incorporated cone mids. For me, the matrix shows, at normal listening levels, the distortion of the woofer at 80hz is equal to the rated distortion of some amplifiers, which is good for a speaker. To bad they didn't test all the way to the 700hz crossover point of the 12" three way verticals. IN MY OPINION the AR 12" speakers with the lowest woofer crossovers sound better, in the music packed human voice octaves, than those with higher crossovers. Adams
  9. Aadams
    Also a great use for thousands of old Advents.
  10. Aadams
    Onplane After this post I will shut up and just watch. There are several paths to achieving your goal. The summation of all that has been posted in this thread is whatever pleases your ears is the solution and whatever you choose will stand a better chance of pleasing your ears if you use an equalizer IMO. Adams
  11. Aadams
    That phrase does appear once in the body of the post. The other phrase is featured more prominently at the beginning and the end. The OP can clarify.
  12. Aadams
    I am not going to hijack this thread, but I want to reiterate a point that has been made at least twice earlier. The topic is “how would you achieve the “AR sound” with modern components?”--- not current production. Pete B has pointed out that it can be done with an equalizer and used BA T 1030s. I have said it can be done with an equalizer and any AR12” woofer and used satellites. I feel sure both approaches rival the sound of an AR 4way. I know it is true in one case. The OP suggested powered subs and satellites so, in deference, we are exploring that path but, he has not said which of his ARs is the target. The AR3a sound will be near impossible so, are we aiming for a 910 sound? Onplane, if you actually pull the trigger on this project, after getting everything set up, are you going to trust your ear and say close enough is OK or AB against one of your ARs? Are you awaiting assurance that the NHT roll off will blend with the sub-woofer? No one here seems to know. Would you consider using a high cut filter in case it doesn’t blend? Will you be using an equalizer? Or, are you expecting the sub and sat combo to meet expectations out of box once they are wired up and balanced? Am I being too forward? Adams
  13. Aadams
    Not saying you intentionally implied a budget but the OP set a bar of "not mortgage the house". Two SVS subs and 2 NHT 2.1s are approx $1250. 2 non-collector AR12" $300, 1 DSP amp $250 2 NHTs $250 equals total $700. I set of of AR3 $1500 +/- ? AR 90, AR9, LS, LSi, working and delivered $1250 -$2000. I could be off but not much.
  14. Aadams
    RE: your statement about recreating an AR 4 way was an oblique reference to a budget. The total current price to set a pair of correctly working AR 4 ways in your listening space, depending on your location, is between $900 and $2000. ALTYamaha: If I were getting a new ported 3way with zero WAF concern, I would look at these instead but they still need a sub woofer. This isn't happening ---------just talk. https://www.jbl.com/studio-monitors/LSR6332R.html?mrkgcl=741&mrkgadid=3277020484&rkg_id=h-34eb7610d9fe4ac3e9257a267087e337_t-1523885412&product_id=LSR6332R&adpos=1o3&creative=252671587334&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6Ne7wPO-2gIVwyOBCh39HAMlEAQYAyABEgLvZfD_BwE Note: If a person prefers the pre-ADD sheer silk sound of the 3 series, LST or LST2, he or she might want to purchase a properly working set of those and not try this approach because IMO it will not be successful. Adams
  15. Aadams
    Have zero interest. If you like those give them a try and report back. My choices, if new, at the moment would be NHT SuperZero 2.1or a BA A23. One AR 12" per side would be sufficient. The objective is not to recreate the four way but to restrict the 12"woofer to its lowest distortion range. This should yiedl AR98ls sound quality which is better than any AR three way beginning with the ADD models IN MY OPINION. If you want more power handling it would be easy to scale. Adams
  16. Aadams
    Agree about the EQ. Even ARs need EQ especially the later ones with no attenuation switches. Today, the 200hz -20khz spanned by the three upper drivers in the AR 4ways can be easily covered by a solid 5" two way so the driver compliment would not be the same as in 1979.
  17. Aadams
    I don’t know exactly how to describe this but I will try. Although the EQ will allow you to come very close to matching the frequency balance, an AR 12” three way will never have the clarity of an AR 4 way through 1300hz. You can verify this by equalizing a good 8 inch or 6 inch speaker to an AR 12 inch three way. Reading this may make the contrast sound small but to give perspective, 42Hz to 1300hz covers over six of the entire 8 octaves of written music. The 4 octaves beginning at 80hz, include all of human voice, all of the most common instruments of non classical music and important identity harmonics and overtones. Above 1300hz are the highest musical notes, represented by the last 21 keys on a piano keyboard, more harmonics and overtones which add air and realism, but an area in which most people’s ears are less attuned than in the lower more critical range. The practical effect is “Free Man in Paris” or “Paradise by the Dashboard Lights” on an AR 4 way will have the clarity of the smaller speaker with the bass of a 12 inch. Adams
  18. Aadams
    The question is "How would you achieve that "AR Sound" with modern components? Another question is, which AR sound? The sound of an AR3a or the sound of a later AR like one of the 9s. There is a big difference, most of which is not in the bass region. Adams
  19. Aadams
    Passive subs are still available new and among the used choices the best, and perhaps least expensive for music, are old AR 12" speakers.
  20. Aadams
    What equipment is required? Must we use powered subs? Must everything be new? What is the budget IYO?
  21. Aadams
    There has been a lot of talk in this thread. Has anyone actually done anything with new speakers to achieve the "AR sound"? I get the feeling this board is mostly geezers, to whom this is not problem, because the expected life of working ARs at this point is longer than that of the owner. Adams
  22. Aadams
    This chart shows some AR woofer crossover points in the context of the musical range. I think it helps explain why the AR4x still gets rave reviews and why the AR12 is an under-appreciated performer compared to the AR5, 2ax and AR14. Note also, the crossover points of the 12” woofers. After 1979 until the end of the dome mids the crossover in a 3 way was 700hz except in the AR303 which was 650hz. The top 12 inch and 10 inch systems always had lower woofer crossovers and the same is true today for full range 8 octave speakers. Even for satellites and powered woofers you are encouraged, almost required, to cross over low. I could be wrong but I think I see a pattern. Adams
  23. Aadams
    Over the last three months this system has become my primary listening source. I have always thought it sounded good but equivocated in recommending it as a solution to be duplicated by me or anyone else. It never had operating problems, but it was a kluge that I wanted to simplify without spending a lot of money. The system that was, is gone and has been reconfigured with one box added and five elements eliminated. The new BLAST Stack has 7 operating drivers per side rather than 9. The AR58 woofer is now crossed over at 200hz with the mid and tweeter being silenced electronically. The current configuration, which I foresee as permanent, is a pre-amp, single equalizer, and 2 DSP power amps each having an internal 24db/octave filter to crossover one amp to the woofers and the other to the satellites at 200hz. The 3 satellites sit atop the AR58 cabinet configured as seen the accompanying photo. The arrangement is akin to an Allison 1 or a DCM Timewindow. The lessons learned from setting up the previous system made this one ridiculously simple by comparison. After verifying the wiring and power connections the only thing to do was 1. Configure the amplifier crossover mode and specify the crossover freq. 2. Balance the woofer and satellite loudness around the crossover point using test tones. That’s it. The sound: The AR woofer in the previous config, even though heavily equalized, was still operating audibly in its full 700hz range. Now, sharply cut at 200hz, with the woofer virtually out of the human voice range, everything is much clearer but also spacious. The astonishing bi-amp power available is a happy consequence that supplies huge overhead reserves. OPINION regarding small satellites for MUSIC SYSTEMS: Whatever you use only need be good quality linear speakers that can be equalized to give the “AR sound” you seek. A 6” or smaller speaker, whether acoustic suspension or ported, is almost never going to produce bass as well as a 12” at 100hz and when used as satellites will be high cut so steeply that mannerly roll off behavior at the extremes will have no bearing on the sound it contributes. And, because this is a non-destructive modification, I would have no reservation in doing this to any AR 3way 12inch, excluding a 3 series, and would consider it an upgrade.
  24. Aadams
    I decided to eat my own dog food. I used two DSP amps to bi-amp and crossover a pair of AR12 inch woofers with two stacks of satellites. The work was finished today, and it exceeds expectations which were high. The high and low cut frequency is 200hz. This is easy, repeatable and less expensive than equally capable powered subs, you just need an AR12” to isolate and use as a satellite stand. Pictures and more description in this thread near the bottom of page one. Adams
  25. Aadams

    I did not want to divert the thread from cones vs domes and it was tending toward a personal advice column with me seeking answers I am not sure others would care about. 

    I am not a speaker builder.  In the simplest form my question is which cone driver size will give max dispersion in the 200 to 4000hz range?

    My reason for asking can be found in these threads.

    http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?/topic/9415-using-small-bookshelf-speakers-to-create-a-uniform-spacious%C2%A0soundfield/

    http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?/topic/9588-baar-lst-hybrid-blast-stack/

    There is no need to read the whole thing just look at the photos but, you should know that all 8 mid&tweet drivers per side are equalized and have their combined output balanced to the woofer.   This is not a bunch of speakers running wide open to get the biggest, loudest sound.

    This started out as a powered subwoofer project and morphed into this hybrid. I have standard setups of AR9s and 3as which I like but I now listen to this system more than anything else.  What I intend to do this week is simplify it. I will eiminate the sound of the AR58 mid and tweeter by using a second Crown DSP amp to turn the 58 into a woofer only system.  The satellite stack configuration will change and be rebalanced and equalized.  If I don’t hear what I expect then I will restore the system to its current klugier config and move the amp to another system.

    The satellites are 5.25” Bostons but they are so cheap and easy to find that I have been thinking that perhaps a 6” would be better to crossover even lower and get the woofer completely out of the female voice range but I didn’t want to sacrifice dispersion for a lower crossover and that is really the root of my question to you.

    I have never liked the beaminess of satellite speakers but know they can be competent performers above the mid bass level.   My original idea was to do this with powered subs but they are too tricky for my taste and quite by accident I found this approach can be very effective if you have the spare hardware sitting around.

    I have done internet searches looking for others trying to accomplish the same thing with no luck otherwise I would be trying to talk to them.  I have found plenty of diy line arrays but that is not what this is.  If I am trying to emulate anything it would be an LST.

    Anyway, I think I have explained why I am asking and only had the single question about driver size and dispersion.

    Thanks

    Frank

    1. Show previous comments  9 more
    2. Aadams

      Aadams

      When you we are after different goals, do you mean "you and I' or "We and They"?

    3. Pete B

      Pete B

      People who are in the wide dispersion vintage AR camp are "illuminating" their probably

      too small (in my opinion) rooms with sound.  I am not in that camp as I believe that small

      rooms are bad for good sound.  I do all critical listening in the sweet spot and I listen to a 

      lot of vocal performers who I want placed center, between the speakers.  I listen with 

      speakers 3 or more feet from the wall behind them.  Sure, I also listen well off axis when

      the music is just for background listening.  I don't expect that I'd be an AR LST lover, since

      they also "illuminate" the side walls though I've not had a pair in my home.

      I think you and I are after different goals.

    4. Aadams

      Aadams

      Got it.  The odd thing about this satellite stack is it has a sweet spot and seems expansive.  The speakers are not wide dispersion and I would like to see how it would do in a larger room to check for beaminess.  I must say being forced into a sweet spot has been a new and pleasurable experience though don't like being nailed down to listen.

       

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