Tubes and older AR speakers

[frankmarsi]

When building my first Dyna-Kit PAS-3X pre-amp in 1967 I had enjoyed myself immensely. I was so excited as I felt I was on the road to becoming an electrical technician in the future. That was a dream of mine for a long time since from 1954 or so when I started to be alert as a toddler watching and assisting my father as he was always trying to get our 12 inch black and white TV working again along with the one or two old radios he had. 

It seemed that these appliances were  always breaking down. If it wasn’t the TV’s vertical and horizontal adjustment going out of wack, it was the radio not working anymore. Back then you could walk into almost any corner drug store in Brooklyn or Manhattan (the only boros I knew about) and use their free tube-testing console, and trust me, we did often. The machine; a big ugly thing with at least thirty or more different types and sizes of sockets and a few heavy wires for those tubes that need that. Sadly, most times he and I left the machine was because our tube were 'bad'.

So, when I finally had a full time job in 1967 on Wall St. for an stock trading house downtown Manhattan at 17 years old and had a little more money in my pocket after putting some weekly gas into my older sister’s 1964 Impala I was ready for the world of ‘Hi-Fi’ or so I thought. She always kept it full, but wanted me to take responsibility for using her car, our only family car. You see, back then, most families only had one car if lucky and it was used for everyone involved, more than that we couldn't do, we were a family of six. Before that most folks hardly had anything, unlike today.

One day I jumped into that 283 C.I. Chevy and headed out to E.J. Korvettes, the first and only full sized department store on Staten Island, N.Y. at the time. This store was the only store on the island that had an actual ‘Hi-Fi’ department. Studying/repeatedly and again, every possible piece of literature available to me which was typically a thick ‘Allied-Radio’ catalog that my father had brought home from the city and any other books he had hanging around down the basement about radios and tube lay-outs and all of the brochures I took from every store I went into in Manhattan. My mind was soaring, I mean playing in bands, growing my hair long, accompanied by my first mustache and true and thick side-burns, getting 'BJs', facing the draft to Nam and all. Coming from a family that lived through the depression and more intolerable hardships of their immigration to this USA in 1926 than I can imagine, here I was living the 'high-life' 42 years later! 

 I swear as I recall only one other guy I saw on Nassau St. in the 'Street's' 'district' during lunch hour who had hair longer than mine and he was better looking so I was instantly jealous as I thought he probably got more 'BJs' than I was getting. It was these lunch hours that I spent most of it in "Radio-Row" walking around checking each of the stores that had the new Japanese stuff and older classic American stuff, some British stuff too. Most stores had parts and tubes and raw speakers for sale. This was all done while watching the building of these two new supposedly tallest buildings in the world, WTC. Yeah, dem bastards knocked down a sizable amount of radio-stores along Cordtland just to put in the foundations, bastards. But, I swallowed the thought of inevitable progress at work, right before my very eyes. As it happened those two structures erased all of Radio-Row.  

 I headed-out to Korvettes every chance I had just to see what was being offered and it killed me knowing I couldn’t afford most of it, aka, any of it. There, they had everything from AR speakers, many different foreign made turntables, more speakers, tuners, and anything else I could want, all of it was tube driven. So, after much drooling and studying ‘specs’ and fotos of this stuff over and over again even while defecating to be sure, I was ready to buy and after months of this intense drooling I headed out to Korvettes again, this time confident I was going to buy something a man such as I thought of myself at 17 would be proud to own on a below modest budget.

 Due to cost considerations, I felt the only good choice was to go in this situation was to buy the Dynaco kits, which at the time was the only available low-cost avenue to take as they had a tiny bit of styling and they were located in PA. which was not too far from NYC. The “Eico” kits looked too industrial looking, the Fisher,Scott and any other components was out of my monetary league plus I felt I could learn even more about my future career choice of electronics.     

With a fist full of cash I headed out to the store, certain that I was coming back home with a ‘Hi-Fi of notable quality and I was ready to get into the world of stereo. 

I told the store employee, (an over weight, bi-focal wearing, smelly and unkempt total nerd type who was always there) that I wanted the Dyna-Kit  tube pre-amp and ST-35 tube amplifier figuring that I could always get a more powerful amp down the road. He came out of the back store room saying there wasn’t any amp-kits in stock, but he had the pre-amp in kit form and a factory built ST-35. I didn’t care I wanted good sound now and through any means to have it, I was ready for real 'Hi-Fi'.

Back at home I quickly opened both boxes, I felt ‘Ah’ how beautiful that ST-35 looked contained in its brown cage with its three heavy transformers weighing much more than I thought it would. I opened the pre-amp instruction book and was brutally bludgeoned by the amount of parts and completely overwhelmed by the multi-page instruction sheets for assembly. I sat down and felt what am going to do, this isn’t as easy as I thought it would be but, having all of the bravado of a young person, I jumped in head first.

Cutting wires to size, bending them to the indicated particular curves to by-pass other components and then twisting them around to solder them to the out puts, mounting the tone controls, balance and volume control with a needle-nose pliers, mounting and wiring the simple little switches, installing the tube-sockets, and finally after hours and hours of intense concentrated effort I was ready to mount the golden toned face-plate. One thing I’ll never forget was the wiring of the main function switch, man was that a pain in the ass, neck and shoulders, and it was always noisy.

Of note is that practically everything was powered by tubes back then just like it always was in the world before me. Transistors were only beginning to emerge into my world and to me were such an unknown device, especially to a 17 year older in 1967.

By early 1968 I was already thinking I could get better sound if I changed all the tubes out of my pre-amp and amp as in a short time as my ears were starting to understand that I wanted better play-back sound. Due to the fact that I was now hearing a hiss at idle, the switches always making noise, heat was always present and the ST-35 didn’t have much power for my home-made speakers but, the speakers are another story as I used the 12 inch speakers out of my Fender Bassman amp along with no-name exponential horns along with bare-empty cabinets I bought down on Cortland Street NYC.

During the time I spent in the US Navy going through A and C school I was now better equipped and not only schooled about tubes but, feeling that transistors was the ‘new’ and better way to go. Transistors were simpler, didn’t cause the heat that tubes lived off of, quieter and less prone to break-down, well in theory at least.

Eventually, upon re-entering civilian life I promptly purchased the all transistor Dyna-Kit ST-120, their first attempt at using transistors in their equipment line. I really did trust Dynaco and I finished with using tube stuff, once and for all time.

Long story short, much like my tube PAS-3X I had to rebuild it twice due to noise, hiss, etc, except with that dirty dog of an amplifier the ST-120, which was constantly  breaking down, Dynaco was repeatedly sending me replacement boards and components. I must add that by this time it was 1972 and I already purchased my brand new AR-3a’s and to this day I still feel the amp just didn’t have the balls to power my power hungry 3a’s as the reason of all the break-downs coupled with the lower 4 ohms required.

Consequently, I waited another two years to go by figuring and hoping that transistors would become more widely used and dependable, while playing in a band took much of my time, incidentally using a tube amplifier. Eventually, technology did get better and almost overnight tubes were phased out and the modern transistorized  world emerged to what we have today, except most of the kinks have been worked out.

After deciding that electronics would become boring and uninteresting to me probably after a decade or so of being in that trade, I felt I desired something of a career that would be more exciting and offering more money and offer more a ‘ego’ satisfaction for me. I put aside electronics and music palying and opted to become a photographer in the world of fashion in Manhattan. During my apprenticeship in 1974 as a ‘fotog’, I purchased a Phase Linear 400 and PL-4000 pre-amp and never looked back. Shortly after, I bought a ‘direct-drive’ turntable. Certainly there were better components to be had but, money always has a way of dictating one's level of happiness.

 Little did I know that it too would be problematic driving AR-3a’s and Bob Carver must’ve seen my return address on a big box in his shop often enough. 

I will admit that perhaps he was in a rush to produce and make money but, hey, it was new and promised to be better because of its huge amount of power. His 700 actually came out first and was the first SS amplifier of such high power, ever. I hind site, that whole thing about using transistors to such a level was pretty much new.

These days I proudly use two rebuilt Phase Linear 700 Series II amplifiers that live an easy life powering my LST’s and hardly ever get past warm. I use another 700 Series II to power my AR-9’s and I’m happier than ever before regarding amplifiers and speakers. I hear music more clearly through my LST's, it is transparent and more realistic sounding than any system I've ever had.

 Due to time passing, aka, getting older, I left that world of fashion photography behind, retired and now enjoy my stereo system more than ever before. And trust me, I never look back as I’ve had enough of the photography world and NYC being born and growing-up there, I'm done with it!

 Tubes are an invention from the past also and knowing my prior experience, I have no idea why folks still like them, unless they feel they missed that old period of electronics and they’re feeling all warm and fuzzy about experiencing something they missed in their lives.

I still have my original Dynaco pre-amp and ST-35 amp though out of use and boxed away somewhere. Would I ever use tubes again? Maybe, only with my AR-4x’s but, I’m just too satisfied with my present system, no way would I back-track or make any lateral moves just to experiment, I’ve been there and did that many years ago. Technology and electronics are not like music that we may favor and play over and over again and lasts through the ages. With electronics, we simply throw it away and forget it but, music remains. It is my assumption that tube lovers either ‘A’ missed what I lived and enjoyed many years ago, or ‘B’ actually feel tubes sound better, I don’t agree. Except, maybe in an old tube guitar amplifier when we want to capture that old sound quality.

So, in closing did Bill Gates go through what I did? Perhaps, but he’s one of the richest men in the world, my luck was different and at least I still use transistors like he did when he started.

And like fellow raccoon lodge member 'AR surround' has previously mentioned, tubes usually will need replacing and that market is very limited in terms of options to buy. To me, they don’t offer the ‘bass-slam’ that I enjoy, are typically noisy with their inherent ‘tube-hiss’ even if new circuitry has minimized it to a degree. And for me, since I use high levels of power coupled with the living room being a little warmer because the central AC is getting old and the ducts need cleaning, I don’t need more heat in that room if I were to use tube amps. If I did they would have to be awfully big and ‘MACs’ are just too over priced. Besides, I enjoy sound quality that is exciting and because of that I need higher power amplifiers. 

Many newer folks here are experiencing that almost muted, wet-blanket over the speaker sound that the older AR’s are noted for and still think it sounds great, it isn’t realistic sounding and it’s not my perception of music. And no doubt probably use whatever tone controls they may have at the 'flat' setting which will further lessen the sense of reality. From the beginning to about 1994, I was always hesitant to use and equalizer, now an parametric-equalizer is an integral part of my system. Understand that speakers and amplifiers weren't designed with everyone's particular room in mind. Furnishings, windows, floors, rugs, etc. require the system to be sonically adjusted and tuned and so the equalizer is important. This elitist snobby attitude some have that their system is perfect right out of the box need to do some adjusting to themselves if they are sincere to proper music listening.  Music in person is not muted, it can be wild and thrashing about, sonically overwhelming you, splashing, thrillingly, exciting, and at times with peaks that can even be ear challenging with volumes right in your face. While at times music can be gentle and subdued, in either case the speakers and room have to be adjusted. Don't get me wrong, in my travels I've seen rooms where most of the room has been treated with an over-abundance of room acoustic treatments and such. I'm not in that camp either, as my approach is tuning the system to a realistic level while still preserving some degree of a home setting, well at least somewhat so.

I have moved on to using additional tweeters and have been doing so since 1975. Since I have sonically furthered my pleasures to utilize exuberant sounding and transparent phono cartridges along with clean vinyl records bringing my listening pleasure to new heights.

 I have never had any of that in the beginning and now I certainly have what is resembling the ‘real-thing’ to my ears and mind.

I do have AR-9’s also that blushingly admit that even AR finally realized the truth by upping the high and mid frequencies as did their AR-LST to improve the sound degree of realism overall. 

The early AR speakers were developed in a time when mostly every speaker sounded harsh and midrange biased while suffering from an unrealistic bass response. Luckily years ago AR brought bass to new heights of realism but, somehow elected to stay away from the exaggerated highs and mids, though they did improve sound radiation which certainly helped. That muted sound in of itself was their trade-mark sound and sadly I have to admit wasn’t reality to future generations of speaker buyers by the later 1970's on.

In my opinion, I feel that tube equipment, unless one is willing to spend big money is not the way to go with AR speakers. 

FM

P.S. Please be reminded that I am not endorsing the 'west-coast' bright sounding speakers that have enjoyed the major segment of the past and present markets maybe they might utilize a softer tube sound?

[AR surround]

That's a great story, Frank.   It would not surprise me if a lot of members started our in their late teens first building Dynaco Pre-amps/amps and then adding AR speakers.   That was the path I took.

[DavidR]

Frank you forgot to add the 'big, fat, boomy bass' of the west coast ported speakers.

[frankmarsi]

AR surround, no doubt you are correct, and you my son, may be knighted at some point. You see my son, even though there were thousands of people walking around just like I was, for some reason I felt that I was the only one there dealing with the clerks behind the counters asking the questions I asked.

Let me get back to listening as I've exposed myself too much here.

Or am I still a product of those times and having difficulties accepting what I see on the internet, cable TV and in the news?

[frankmarsi]

DavidR, yes I did forget that, you're right. Though I can remember boomy bass being the norm until I experienced 12 inch AR bass which is one of the reasons I use big amps  in order to give me more of that AR bass that I love so much. It may also be that I went half or three quarters crazy stock piling all of these AR woofers that take up so much damn room here. Thank goodness I haven't blown a woofer in 3 years now, fingers crossed.

I'm feeling sometimes retirement brings out the neuroses in me to scary and previously unseen levels.

Somebody please, hand me a sarsaparilla. I don't know what I want to listen to now. I have this excellent 1986 LP remake of the "Duke's" greatest jazz pieces. It's so good being played by modern players using 1986 equipment I had to seek out 6 copies of it, 4 are sealed, maybe for the after life, or is that, 'after-party'? I find I really like upbeat swinging jazz as compared to subdued, Bob Evans type of stuff which I enjoy but, it's a different head space.. One thing for sure the piano is my favorite instrument used in jazz even though it's so populated by horn instruments and players.

And to think, until two years ago, I never really enjoyed most any jazz, only some of it. Now, I have at least a 70 or more vinyl disk collection of it and still looking for more. On vinyl of course!

Ya see, I can change my tastes, just not my speakers.

[AR surround]

4 hours ago, frankmarsi said:

...Thank goodness I haven't blown a woofer in 3 years now, fingers crossed...

Frank, are you implying that you have blown out an AR 12" woofer in the past?    If so, how did it happen as it seems like a difficult thing to do.

[DavidR]

Phase Linear has the infamous name "Flame Linear" as Carver hadn't perfected the magnetic field xfmr/triac system. People actually  had their voice coils burst in to flames. Me, I'm done with Carver amps. There's more to it than big wattage.

[frankmarsi]

7-26-17

 

This will address both AR surround and DavidR.

First any speaker if pushed beyond its design operating parameters, will fail.

Typically an over heated VC will give out in a short time if the signal is continually applied at high audio volumes causing the VC to have an 

open or either break or collapse and or the VC former being pushed past its designed distance of travel.

     AR speakers are not any more prone or devoid of this type of damage than any other brand of speaker. I have seen high-quality JBL musical instrument 15 inch speakers with some of the same ailments.

In my case, when I’ve blown woofers I was either listening with a touch too much of bass control applied at very high listening levels while using intensely powerful program-material.

 Being that my amplifiers are more powerful than what is used in most typical systems, at high volumes I’m leaving myself at the mercy of doing some damage also. I’ve had the rare occurrence while using what is called the ‘long-wire’ AR 12inch woofer because the wire actually being too short to accommodate the cone travel and the wire breaking away from the cone. On another occasion I made the error of accidentally dropping a tonearm with the volume turned up and the signal being passed through the amplifier was more than the speaker was able to handle.

So, typically a blown woofer is not a situation that is all that rare in the world of realistic and high listening levels.

 

Speaking to DavisR’s statements. What most people don’t know and or forget is that as far back to their introduction to the public, Phase Linear amplifiers were used in large numbers by sound-reinforcement companies because before that many of those same sound-companies solely had the Crown DC300 amplifier and few others to power their huge arrays of multiple speakers. The Crown, being only 150 watts per-channel was hardly suited for the job because of its low power. When the Phase Linear came out sound-reinforcement quality and volumes all across the world were improved and henceforth, the listening audience much more pleased.

The back-story was that the Phase Linear amplifiers were not designed for use in such grueling conditions, and not being abused by careless and inexperienced roadies and set-up people. In addition, PL amps were not able to survive sustained low ohm usage especially while not using the proper amount of cooling fans. I can bet any dollar that because of their large numbers of production and abuse PL amps were probably being reportedly blown less than AR tweeters have. Beyond that, PL amps were built a little light weight in terms of their chassis construction and that coupled by the high power transistors being used were at the time pretty much a ‘new’ untried commodity. Bob C’s use of such transistors was never done before as these transistors were actually designed for truck and automotive ignition module use and were never before used in audio applications. There was also the fact that many PL amps were repaired incorrectly and blew because the incorrect transistors were used in these repairs. PL amps have been and existing units still are very sensitive to having all of the output transistors being exactly matched. 

By using a transistor that is similar or ‘just-O.K.’ is not acceptable to this amp’s circuitry and although many ran seemingly O.K. on the test-bench, when pushed and used with inadequate fan cooling could fail. These errors of repair were made typically because like I said, the production and use of these transistors was still at the time, relatively new to the whole industry.

DavidR, you mentioned the ‘magnetic-field’ amplifiers and those were not the amps that garnered the reputation I’m addressing here. Those amps came later and typically were not used in professional applications such as sound reinforcement.

 

P.S.  Two of my PL-700 Series II amplifiers were rebuilt ten years ago by a very qualified and experienced technician who works alongside a retired true PL technician. All output devices were replaced, the driver-board rebuilt, the circuit was reconfigured to operate in a ‘full-complementary’ mode and the power-supply capacitors have been more than doubled in capacity. 

I have pushed them by using AR-LST speakers whose 4 ohm rating can drop to 2 or less at times and I have never experienced any problems at all while they operate at very cool running temperature even when driven hard for many hours at a time as I have done repeatedly. They are continually cooled by 4 inch fans as any amp driving difficult loads like the AR-LST speaker should be. 

My third PL-700 Series II was partially rebuilt replacing driver-board capacitors and resistors only and is driving my AR-9’s with-out ever a hiccup.

Like another machine or device, car or truck, bus or plane, horse or goat, you or me, if pushed beyond what it was designed to do, it will experience problems and at times it will even be fatal.

P.S. When I first blew out my first PL-400 amp driving two AR-3a's at high volumes it was four years old, encased in a wood cabinet with limited ventilation. When I brought it to the highly and popular recommended repair facility in Manhattan, I saw on their shelves just as many PL amps, BGW amps, Crown amps and other big monster amps waiting for repair. The second time my amp blew it was discovered that the repair was performed with mis-matched out-put transistors and like I mentioned above, that is a recipe for disaster. Other than that, clearly, most of the earlier PL output devices were a disaster because of their relatively weak and underdeveloped design and capacity.

DavidR, I thought you purchased a "WOPL' 400?

FM

[DavidR]

What's a WOPL ?

[frankmarsi]

My mistake. I thought you had purchased a Phase Linear "'white-oak-phase-linear". I know someone here did if it wasn't you.

It's a company that makes all new design circuit boards for the older PL amplifiers adding to their already spectacular performance.

From what I understand the products are so well designed that after installation the amps are virtually boiler-plate tough.

The cost seems reasonable and the performance results increase the power by more than 10 percent or so.

I was going to try them out but, I have 6 PL400's and my 3 PL-700's  have been conventionally restored already.

Check out this site if interested as the designer appears here often:   http://forums.phxaudiotape.com/

FM

[DavidR]

Nope, not me. I have had several Carver amps both original and modified. The only thing I have hung on to that's Carver is my MXR150 The Receiver which I recapped the power supply and tone controls and gave it to my son. (2) TX-11a and an 11b Tuner. Amps: M1.5t - brittle sounding, a couple of M1.0t both modified and original and M500t both modified and original. They are all gone and not missed. The new stuff is so much better.

[stan461]

"Long story short". You're a riot, Frank!

I had a maroon 63 impala for many, many years. Lots of earrings wound up under the front seat. Great times and fond memories.

I have owned 3 sets of AR3s & one set of AR3s and have always been very satisfied with 'solid state'. For almost all types of music. My problem has always been that I listen to mostly orchestral music and that is probably the toughest genre to replicate. Still looking for a better solution. My never get there but loving the journey. 

[frankmarsi]

7-27-17

Stan461, I too listen to tons of orchestral music on vinyl, that is.

Like many who enjoy vinyl and who know how to the most out of it, it should which include:

Thorough and complete vinyl cleaning facilities, such as ultrasonic-cleaner and or VPI vacuum and brush machine, very good turntable that is balanced, level and properly isolated, an accurate stylus pressure measuring digital scale, the correct use of accurate cartridge protractors, a quality cartridge shell, high quality tonearm, quality signal cables, an anti-static brush, “In the Groove”  sticky roller, a high quality moving-coil cartridge, a tried and test quality table mat, all operating adjustments checked and rechecked and of course, good condition vinyl disks.

If you work up to and assemble these few prerequisites as I have done, you’ll have an excellent vinyl play-back.

I know I had to research, try-out and assemble all of these items to have what I feel, is an excellent vinyl play-back system. And speaking for myself, I’m in awe of how great my system actually sounds and it’s because of vinyl.

Mind you, I didn’t start doing this last Tuesday, I was born into the vinyl generation of those before me and really never left it.

 So, when vinyl allegedly made its ‘come-back’, I was there, ready, willing and able to accept all and any new devices, instruments and tools to make my listening pleasure even more enjoyable.

Besides all of the above mentioned tools and practices, cartridge selection is a key factor.

Although I love my Lyra Delos cartridge playing pretty much any type of music, I have found that I completely enjoy using a Ortofon Cadenza Blue cartridge as I feel it presents stringed instruments in a more balanced way than the Delos does. Of course this my estimation, there are many variables that come into play though like: Disk label and manufacturer, disk condition, disk pressing run number, recording age, and ones personal mood, etc. Then there’s the listener’s ability and desire to either achieve the best and or simply settle for mediocrity.

Additionally, in order to enjoy the vinyl-world to its fullest, one must have a disciplined regiment of cleanliness, gentleness, carefulness, a tuned cultivated ear and certainly the love of music. Above all else, one must have a strong desire to hear their vinyl the best it can be heard on their system.

P.S. And Stan, I even found panties under my front seat.

FM

[DavidR]

who's panties?

[frankmarsi]

Why, did you loose a pair?

Describe yours and I'll check to see if they match before I'll return anything.