AR 10-pi pair for sale on eBay

[r_laski]

Guys and gals get your bids ready. A pair of near mint condition AR-10pi's just came up for bid on eBay. Only "flaw" I see is diffraction foam is missing from one of the tweeters, probably a replacement tweeter. (left one in the pictures)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...&category=14993

No Reserve and S&H will be from SF Bay area.

Rich Laski

[roundhome]

looks like the woofer on that side is a different one to

the tweet looks like a 3a not fluid cooled one.

jim

[Guest Bret]

Thanks for the heads-up. I've been looking for months, ever since I let the Audiogon pair get by me (I'd have paid the shipping if I'd known so few pair were going to come around.)

Bret

[Guest Bret]

>looks like the woofer on that side is a different one to

the tweet looks like a 3a not fluid cooled one.<

I don't believe either woofer is original to the cabinet and I know that's a 3a/LST tweeter on the left, which makes me wonder about the way it was mounted. I haven't mounted/unmounted a 3a vintage tweeter in a long, long time. I hope he didn't drill extra holes.

So I guess they aren't as "clean" as the seller wants to think they are. I'll bet they sound like h_ll as they sit right now.

Bret

[r_laski]

Thought you, and maybe others, might be interested. They don’t come up very often, in fact AR-11s and -10pi’s come up on eBay/Audiogon less than LSTs and 9s. Closer than the pair in Sweden, and these have foam grills. Rally can get some idea of what his –10pi’s are worth from this auction.

With 8 AR speakers in various stages of restoration, I have all I can handle right now.

That pair on Audiogon, were they the ones the guy had put hooks on and had them hanging from the ceiling, or am I thinking of the last pair that was on eBay?

Rich Laski

[r_laski]

Bret,

About the tweeter -- Very respectfully, I disagree. There are three mounting screws 60 degrees apart, so no extra holes there. The lead wires are 180 degrees apart, also standard to these tweeters. Also, looking at my AR-11, there are no “cutouts” in the tweeter mounts on the cabinet like there are for the midrange. It may be a very late version of the 3a tweeter or an early version of the “AR-11” tweeter. It looks like the tweeters in my Dad’s AR-11s (early version, brass logos). These never had the diffraction foam. In fact, It looks just like the AR-11B tweeter (200011-1) I’m looking at. It’s from my AR-11B. I had to remove the diffraction foam because it was so dry and flaky, it was getting all over everything when I starting restoring them. With the foam removed, this tweeter looks exactly like the one in the eBay pics.

About the woofers – Ok, so the seller committed the ultimate faux pas. Even worse that stating 11 inch woofers, he states 10 inch woofers instead of, as we all know – 12 INCH WOOFERS.

I agree at least one of those woofers is suspect. I’ve taken another look at the pics and I’m thinking the one on the right might be a replacement, reconed, refoamed, and/or regasketed, Here’s why – 1) The basket flange is black behind the foam gasket (where the screws are, outside the surround). 2) The foam gasket is neatly trimmed around each screw. and 3) The dust cap looks poly/paper, (it may not be, but in the picture, it doesn’t look like an AR cloth dustcap to me, but what do I know anyway). This woofer might be correct for the -10pi since the driver mounting area is veneered and that invites you to display these sans grills. You’ve seen AR-10pi’s recently, neither woofer looks right to you?

Jim may be right about the one on the left in the pics. However, I have nine original AR 12 INCH WOOFERS in my house right now. Yesterday, I had ten, I just took one in to a local repair shop for a recone estimate. The only black flanges are on the woofers in my brother’s LSTs, but they don’t look like the woofer in the -10pi. They look like the woofers Tom Tyson recently listed on eBay. Besides the two in the LSTs, four of these are from my brother’s and my AR-11Bs I’m restoring, and four are in my Dad’s AR-9s (I’m refoaming/restoring them for him). All of these have silver woofer basket flanges, and have untrimmed foam gaskets. The woofer on the left AR-10pi looks just like these 8, including what happens to the foam gasket when it gets dried out and someone uncovers the screws.

Irregardless, of all our nit-picking above, this appears to be one very nice pair of AR-10pi’s, and they don't come up very often. Drivers are replaceable. Auction doesn’t end until April 22. If you are still interested at all, it might be worth your while to ask seller several questions and see if you can get good answers and get some pics of cabinet sides. A legitimate concern is no feedback on this seller.

As I stated in another post, I have all the speaker projects I can handle right now.

Rich Laski

[Guest Bret]

>About the tweeter -- Very respectfully, I disagree.<

Nah, we aren't disagreeing. I didn't remember how 3a tweeters mounted. You are a scholar as well as a gentleman.

Evidently I don't know what early AR-11s looked like. I'll cop to my ignorance. I can tell you that that tweeter is definitely not a 10pi tweeter from any vintage, and I know you'd agree. I thought that by the time the 11s came there was no visable wire on the front of the driver even if it wasn't ferrofluid. But I'm perfectly willing to learn something here and so I'm just telling you what my impression was before you educated me.

The woofer in the cabinet with the "funky" tweeter might, on second look, be original. The photograph makes it hard to tell if I'm seeing "dope" on the cone or if that's a shadow. On the other hand, if the other woofer had been mildewed and cleaned, well, it might look like that. I'm with you on the screw-holes.

Bret

[Guest Bret]

>That pair on Audiogon, were they the ones the guy had put hooks on and had them hanging from the ceiling, or am I thinking of the last pair that was on eBay?<

This isn't ringing any bells for me, so it must have been ebay, or maybe I missed a pair on Audiogon. In either case, I think I might be just as happy I didn't see a pair of 10pi's with hooks in the top.

Bret

[r_laski]

>Evidently I don't know what early AR-11s looked like. I'll cop to my ignorance. I can tell you that that tweeter is definitely not a 10pi tweeter from any vintage, and I know you'd agree.<

Well, I was about to agree with you and then I started to do some more research (see below). Trying to overcome my ignorance is a never ending quest.

BTW, I have to correct something on an earlier post – the mounting screw holes on the tweeters are 120 degrees apart not 60 as I stated. (360/3 =120) The point I was making was correct, even if my math wasn’t.

>I thought that by the time the 11s came there was no visible wire on the front of the driver even if it wasn't ferrofluid. But I'm perfectly willing to learn something here and so I'm just telling you what my impression was before you educated me.<

No visible tweeter lead wires started with the AR-9 series with its solid tweeter front and “Velcro” dots for the diffraction foam. If you haven’t already, go to the ADD/Truth in Listening page of the AR Classic speaker pages. Download and unzip the AR-10pi brochure. Look at page 2. These are early AR-10pi’s, note the brass logos and black, not veneered, driver area. See the tweeter close up. The real early tweeters had the off white cloth dome (One of my Dad’s AR-11s is exactly like the one in the picture. The other is just like it only black cloth). You can see in the close up picture of the AR-10pi / AR-11 tweeters, the lead wires come out the dome and go under a piece of thin plastic. They are soldered to connectors near the outer edge of the mounting flange. The connector passes through the flange and exit as spades for the wires from the crossovers.

Now here is the problem I have with the “funky” tweeter in the eBay –10pi. The thin plastic piece that covered these early tweeters covered the connectors the lead wires are soldered to. When AR added the diffraction foam to this tweeter, no changes were made to the lead wire. It still comes out the dome and goes under the plastic to the connectors. However, the plastic was cut out around the connectors and the diffraction foam covered the connector. My evidence is the 4 AR-11B tweeters I have here right now – two with foam, (I peeked under the foam) and two I recently removed the dry rotted foam from.

Based on all this, without asking the seller to pull the tweeter and give me the PN off the back, my guess is it’s a 200011-1 tweeter with the diffraction foam removed, exposing the connectors. When you take delivery of these and pull that tweeter, let me know if I’m right.;-)

>The woofer in the cabinet with the "funky" tweeter might, on second look, be original. The photograph makes it hard to tell if I'm seeing "dope" on the cone or if that's a shadow. On the other hand, if the other woofer had been mildewed and cleaned, well, it might look like that. I'm with you on the screw-holes.<

I saw the darker area on that woofer cone and agree with you. Can’t tell if it’s a shadow (initial thought) or some kind of treatment.

Back to the AR-10pi brochure. Look at the woofer -- Black flange! The picture gets too distorted as I zoom in, but it appears there is either no foam gasket or it has a trimmed gasket like to one in the eBay pictures. The screws are definitely visible.

If you download and unzip the AR-11 brochure, also the early version of this model, the tweeter and the woofer look exactly the same as in the –10pi, and again it gets too distorted to get a clear look at the woofer flange.

If you open the “Truth in Listening” ad (I love that picture) you see all the “B” models (last versions). Note black/silver logos, SN stickers in front, and diffraction foam on -10pi, -11, and -12 tweeters. AR-10pi (veneered driver area) is bottom right. AR-11B is only speaker on its side, on top of the AR-10pi and the AR-12. Picture is very grainy. This same picture is on cover of AR-11 – 18 owner’s manual (pdf file) and it is cleaner. Woofer flanges look like they are silver on both the –10pi and –11 in this picture (but don’t hold me to that). Zoom in on it and you can see solid foam gasket on AR-11 woofer and WOW trimmed foam around the AR-10pi woofer screws. Looks like trimmed foam on the 12 INCH WOOFER in the picture on the contents page also.

Regarding the woofers in the AR-10pi’s up for auction. Is at least one a replacement - almost definitely. Are they both AR 12 INCH WOOFERS – Yes. Does the color of the flange and trimmed vs. untrimmed gasket make the woofers sound different – Absolutely Not. Should it be part of the decision making process on whether or not, and how much to bid -- Probably. Is any of this (woofer/tweeter) a show stopper and cause to not bid on this pair of AR-10pi’s – That’s a personal decision.

This pair of classic AR speakers is typical of almost every pair of speakers that comes up for auction on eBay. Not in mint/new condition, and some obvious discrepancies in the drivers (or in many cases some rotted foam – surrounds, gaskets and/or diffraction rings). That has to be somewhat expected of speakers that are 25 +/- years old (Truth in Listening era). It would be a heck of a lot easier if foam surrounds, gaskets, diffraction rings, and grills that break down over time had never been invented or used on AR speakers.

Sorry for this dissertation, but isn’t that one of the things this forum is for? It’s so rare to see pictures of the AR-10pi and AR-11 that allow us to do this kind of analysis on a speaker we are so fond of.

Rich Laski

[Guest Bret]

I’m sorry this is so long and complicated. Maybe we’ll come to some new conclusions from all this. I had to re-read our original posts and start from “I think; therefore I am” to get to a good starting spot.

I said: “I don't believe either woofer is original to the cabinet.” Based on your observation, “The basket flange is black behind the foam gasket (where the screws are, outside the surround,” I think we both might be wrong. Let me explain at the risk of being tedious: The 10pi woofers I sent to PA for reconing/re-surrounding are black as the ace of spades and were absolutely original to the cabinets they came from. They also had the feature of, as you put it, “The foam gasket is neatly trimmed around each screw.” Then you went-on to say that the dustcap on that speaker is not stock. I agree completely that this speaker has been re-surrounded and sports a new dustcap. But, I also suspect that the color of the cone is screaming, “I’m original!” because the 10pi woofers I just sent-off have a “compressed felt” sort of paper on them, almost like the old, old 2ax woofers. They discolor easily and if the re-surrounder tried to clean them up he/she/it almost certainly would have discolored them with whatever they used. If the cone were mildewed the primitive but effective method of trying to kill it would be a dilute bleach solution.

So despite us both thinking something else, the one on the right looks very much as though it might be original and repaired. HOWEVER - the thing that is “funny” about this is the aluminum badge and that black woofer. Except, as you point-out, the “Truth in Listening” add shows the same thing; aluminum badge, black woofer basket, exposed screws. So, we have our answer - the prettier woofer on the left is not original to that cabinet. First, it isn’t black. Second, the cone does not appear to be the “softer” paper. Third, it doesn’t have the neat cut-out for each screw in the gasket.

You said, “These are early AR-10pi’’s, note the brass logos and black, not veneered, driver area.”

Yeahbut - Don’s 10pi’s we’ve been fooling with are brass-logo-ed, early production models (with factory-mounted fuse-holders which were deleted. . . looks like it was deleted in May, 1975 but the month is sorta fuzzy) *and* have veneered driver areas.

The suspect tweeter, the 11 or whatever it is tweeter, cannot possibly be original to the cabinet. Why? As you point-out, in the 10pi lit (Don’s literature I copied and uploaded) there is the “off-white” tweeter. This was a hard tweeter. I don’t know what they coated it with, but it was hard, like a horn diaphragm. I’m almost certain it was paper. I don’t know that AR used one before or since. I’m almost certain it was not ferro-fluid filled. Now look at the “Truth in Listening” ad again. Uh oh. Another incongruity.

Notice the size of the “silver circle” around the tweeters. Big circle. Around every one. My 9's have “big circle” tweeters, but on the page in the library provided by Leon Treurnich we’ve got “little circle” drivers in all the speakers. AR 9 owner’s manual? Big circles.

I’m not trying to confuse things by bringing-up the 9. I’m only saying that I’m not sure we can rely on images to tell us the whole story. Except. . . I have this funny feeling that they are telling us a story - a mystery - a story of intrigue and “really wild things” about driver sourcing and materials availability and warranty problems - and possibly price.

I suspect if you and I knew, really knew, what went-on behind the scenes in terms of compromises after the engineering was done, we might both be a little disillusioned. Or maybe we’d find-out that it doesn’t matter what driver we put in what cabinet because there were revisions going-on all the time and there’s no telling which revisions might have been included in which particular speaker cabinet.

Sorta makes it less important as an academic pursuit to "Put 'em back the way they was!" (That's from the musical "Li'l Abner" in case you didn't recognize it. I'd hate for y'all to think Mississippians were really that bad at English.)

And, as you say, the real proof of that Ebay pudding is whether or not the cabinets are as pretty as they seem to be.

Bret

[Steve F]

All the ADD 3/4" tweeters were ferro-fluid filled and therefore they had much greater power handling than the older 3/4" tweeters.

That was the central, defining component change to the ADD line from the Classic line--the 1 1/2' mid and 12" woofer were the same in the 10 Pi/11 as they were in the last generation 3a's. The literature says so, I personally asked the factory people on a tour in 1975, and I have a letter from an AR marketing person dated August 1975 that confirms it.

It was that tweeter change that allowed the ADD crossovers to be re-designed for a higher voltage drive level to the tweeter section, and it resulted in a far more balanced power response from the 10Pi/11/12 compared to the 3a/5/2ax.

I'll leave it to you to sort out the different colors, circles, and iterations of the 3/4" ADD/Verticals tweeters. You're doing your usual great, thorough job. But they were ALL ferrofluid cooled.

Steve F.

[Guest Bret]

>But they were ALL ferrofluid cooled<

Okay.

Do you know why the 10pi received that strange tweeter it started life with? Was that also a feature of the 11 and the last-generation 3a?

I thought perhaps the discontinuation of the fuse coincided with the change to the ferro-fluid tweeter making the fuse less necessary. If not, then why the fuse in the first place and why discontinue it?

Bret

[Guest Bret]

>I'll leave it to you to sort out the different colors, circles, and iterations of the 3/4" ADD/Verticals tweeters<

Please don't leave it to me to sort this out if you know why the changes.

Bret

[tysontom]

>>looks like the woofer on that side is a different one to

>the tweet looks like a 3a not fluid cooled one.<

>

>I don't believe either woofer is original to the cabinet and I

>know that's a 3a/LST tweeter on the left, which makes me

>wonder about the way it was mounted. I haven't

>mounted/unmounted a 3a vintage tweeter in a long, long time.

>I hope he didn't drill extra holes.

>

>So I guess they aren't as "clean" as the seller wants to think

>they are. I'll bet they sound like h_ll as they sit right

>now.

>

Bret, and others,

It's difficult to know for sure from the pictures, but here is what I think is going on with these AR-10Pi's:

(1) These are "Series II" late-70 early-80 versions, with the changeover in the woofer to the foam ring around the outside of the surround (this was a cosmetic thing entirely, and began around the time of the introduction of the AR-9). It appears that the original surrounds are intact, which is very unusual. If you look at the surround edge closet to the cone, the AR adhesive line is still present -- never seen in the case of retrofitted surrounds, and the diameter of the half-round surround cross section appears to be the correct 3/4-inches rather than the surround-kit versions at 1/2-to-5/8-inches. The cone color is slightly different, which was normal with different vintages, but the dust cap is also different, so I think the woofers were a few years apart, and perhaps one was changed somewhere along the way or the serial numbers are far apart. I am fairly confident that these woofers have never been refurbished, which is a good thing if they are still intact.

(2) Both tweeters are correct and the same vintage, only one does not have the absorbant foam on the outside. This may be a replacement tweeter, and the person who did the change did not apply the adhesive-back foam piece (or it went bad) to the front of the tweeter. The domes are otherwise identical. AR changed from the orange-colored 3/4-inch tweeter to the black-colored version in the second iteration of the AR-10Pi and AR-11. As Steve pointed out, all were Ferro-fluid-cooled tweeters.

(3) The foam grill cloth is the brown version, also indicative of the later version AR-10Pi (earlier foam grill and most replacement grills were black). The foam grills do appear to be the original ones as well.

(4) The "AR-10Pi" logos are, of course, the later versions as well, being made from aluminum rather than brass as in the case of the earlier ones.

I think I am correct with my observation, but it is certainly open to further discussion. Overall, I would think that this pair of AR-10Pi's are actually quite unusual, and in very-good to excellent condition.

--Tom Tyson

[tysontom]

>I agree at least one of those woofers is suspect. I’ve taken

>another look at the pics and I’m thinking the one on the right

>might be a replacement, reconed, refoamed, and/or regasketed,

>Here’s why – 1) The basket flange is black behind the foam

>gasket (where the screws are, outside the surround). 2) The

>foam gasket is neatly trimmed around each screw. and 3) The

>dust cap looks poly/paper, (it may not be, but in the picture,

>it doesn’t look like an AR cloth dustcap to me, but what do I

>know anyway). This woofer might be correct for the -10pi since

>the driver mounting area is veneered and that invites you to

>display these sans grills. You’ve seen AR-10pi’s recently,

>neither woofer looks right to you?

>

Rich,

I think I figured it out. The woofer on the right is the Tonegen OEM replacement woofer; the woofer on the left is the original-style Series II woofer, with the decorative-foam probably getting ready to crumble about now. The surround on that one appears to be okay -- it's hard to tell -- and it doesn't appears that anyone has done a surround job on it, because the adhesive foam decorative ring is still in place. Replacing a surround without damaging the foam ring is nearly impossible, and replacement adhesive-back foam rings are long gone. Since there is no close-up of that speaker as with the right-side speaker, you really can't tell the condition of that woofer's surround. Obviously, the seller chose the better woofer to photograph up close.

>Jim may be right about the one on the left in the pics.

>However, I have nine original AR 12 INCH WOOFERS in my house

>right now. Yesterday, I had ten, I just took one in to a local

>repair shop for a recone estimate. The only black flanges are

>on the woofers in my brother’s LSTs, but they don’t look like

>the woofer in the -10pi. They look like the woofers Tom Tyson

>recently listed on eBay. Besides the two in the LSTs, four of

>these are from my brother’s and my AR-11Bs I’m restoring, and

>four are in my Dad’s AR-9s (I’m refoaming/restoring them for

>him). All of these have silver woofer basket flanges, and have

>untrimmed foam gaskets. The woofer on the left AR-10pi looks

>just like these 8, including what happens to the foam gasket

>when it gets dried out and someone uncovers the screws.

>>

The silver color on the basket was another cosmetic detail that AR used on this second series AR-10Pi/AR-11 speakers. The midrange protective grill was painted silver and the speaker flange was also painted that way, or left natural-steel color, on some versions.

Incidentally, this was the third actual variation of the ceramic-ferrite AR 12-inch woofer. The first version -- as alluded to above -- was the orange-ring AR-3a/AR-LST (1969-1974) version, and by far, most compliant. The second version was the 1975 AR-10/AR-11 version (also used in the post-1974 back-wired AR-3a's and back-wired AR-LST's), with a stiffer skiver and different-density cone (increased power-handling at the expense of lower harmonic distortion, which was largely inaudible). The third version (came with the 1978 AR-9) was like the left one for sale here, with slightly stiffer suspension even yet and changes to the dust cap and cone density, etc. AR discontinued coating the surround with butyl-rubber on the second and third series. There were other iterations along the way, but in every case each woofer has the same basic parameters of voice-coil overhang, magnetic flux density, etc.

--Tom Tyson

[r_laski]

>I’m sorry this is so long and complicated.

Maybe we’ll come to some new conclusions from all this.

I had to re-read our original posts and start from

“I think; therefore I am” to get to a good starting spot.<

Bret,

I started this before Steve F and Tom Tyson added their expertise to this discussion. I edited it after reading their messages and posting here.

Absolutely nothing to be sorry about. When we started this, we were bliss in our ignorance. Our quest for knowledge has caused us to examine the evidence, and with the help of some experts, reevaluate and change our initial thoughts and conclusions.

>So despite us both thinking something else,

the one on the right looks very much as though

it might be original and repaired.

HOWEVER - the thing that is “funny” about this is

the aluminum badge and that black woofer.

Except, as you point-out, the “Truth in Listening”

add shows the same thing; aluminum badge,

black woofer basket, exposed screws.

So, we have our answer - the prettier woofer

on the left is not original to that cabinet.

First, it isn’t black.

Second, the cone does not appear to be the

“softer” paper. Third, it doesn’t have the neat

cut-out for each screw in the gasket.

>Yeahbut - Don’s 10pi’s we’ve been fooling

with are brass-logo-ed, early production

models (with factory-mounted fuse-holders

which were deleted. . . looks like it was

deleted in May, 1975 but the month is sorta

fuzzy) *and* have veneered driver areas.<

Thanks for the info. And in light of some of your comments below, we don’t know when AR changed from black to veneered driver area in the –10pi, but apparently from the pair you have access to, it was before the “Truth In Listening” / “B” / “series II” / last versions. Nice to know.

>The suspect tweeter, the 11 or whatever

it is tweeter, cannot possibly be original

to the cabinet. Why? As you point-out, in the

10pi lit (Don’s literature I copied and uploaded)

there is the “off-white” tweeter. This was a hard

tweeter. I don’t know what they coated it with,

but it was hard, like a horn diaphragm. I’m almost

certain it was paper. I don’t know that AR used

one before or since. I’m almost certain it was not

ferro-fluid filled. Now look at the “Truth in

Listening” ad again. Uh oh. Another incongruity.<

I agree with you, they are unique to this series and physically different from the –3a era tweeters and also physically different from the verticals series (AR –9X) tweeters. According to the AR-11 lit, the same tweeter was used in the -10pi and the –11. Yes, again I agree, that dome is treated and it is hard. Maybe not as hard as plastic, but hard. It’s not a dust cover and if crushed it wreaks havoc with the tweeters voice. Would you like paper or cloth with that tweeter? Under a magnifying glass it looks like cloth to me, but let’s just agree, whatever AR made it out of it is heavily treated.

I’m writhing this after Steve F’s reply. He provides the definitive answer on ferro-fluid filled AR tweeters. See Tom’s reply also. I stand by my previous guess that, even if it is not original, it is the correct tweeter for the cabinet. If I had a digital camera I’d attach a picture of one of my tweeters that looks exactly like the “funky” tweeter. An AR-11 / -10pi tweeter with the diffraction foam removed. The only tweeter that could look like that that would not be acceptable is an AR-12 tweeter (8 ohm) with its diffraction foam removed. Let’s not go there.

>I’m not trying to confuse things by

bringing-up the 9. I’m only saying that

I’m not sure we can rely on images to tell

us the whole story.<

No harm, no foul. I brought up the AR-9 tweeters in my last reply. They are physically different from the “Truth in Listening” tweeters. You are entirely correct about not relying solely on images. Fortunately, you have Don’s 10pi’s to look at. Last week I was in Omaha and took a real close look at my Dad’s early version AR-11s. I have 4 AR-11Bs in my house right now. Mine and my brother’s. I also have my Dad’s AR-9s here (little circles on his tweeters, everything in both AR-9s is absolutely original). Enough about AR–9s in this thread.

That “silver circle” around the Truth in Listening series tweeter is a white paint circle on the diffraction absorption foam that covers the front of the tweeter. This foam was added to the tweeter at some time during the production of these speakers. The diameter of the circle is the same diameter as the thin plastic piece that covers the tweeter lead wires under the foam. This foam (and the white circle) was not on the earlier versions of the tweeters. Like those in Don’s AR-10pi’s and my Dad’s AR-11s. I’ve always used the diffraction foam on the tweeter, the serial number label in the front of the speaker, and the black/silver logo to distinguish the “Truth in Listening” or “B” models from the earlier (ADD?) “brass logo” versions of this series of AR speakers. Maybe the line of demarcation between these two versions was smudged a little on the production line.

What are the chances of finding an AR-10pi / AR-11 tweeter with pristine diffraction foam for sale or buying one from AR? (Another rhetorical question)

>I suspect if you and I knew, really knew,

what went-on behind the scenes in terms of

compromises after the engineering was done,

we might both be a little disillusioned.

Or maybe we’d find-out that it doesn’t matter

what driver we put in what cabinet because

there were revisions going-on all the time

and there’s no telling which revisions might

have been included in which particular speaker

cabinet.<

Yes, exactly. We’ll never know what mix of drivers were put into which cabinets as changes in vendors and engineering revisions were made during the entire production run of these speakers. All we can rely on is the part number. Its the same with computers, automobiles, and almost all other consumer goods.

>Sorta makes it less important as an

academic pursuit to "Put 'em back the

way they was!" (That's from the musical

"Li'l Abner" in case you didn't recognize

it. I'd hate for y'all to think Mississippians

were really that bad at English.)<

As far as I’m concerned, this has been a very engaging and stimulating academic pursuit. One I have thoroughly enjoyed participating in. More importantly, as I contemplate speaker restoration as a serious hobby this has helped me realize some of the issues that will have to be addressed and resolved as to how accurately can one be reasonable expected to “put ‘em back the way they was!” given the age and availability of authentic replacement parts of these speakers. More on this in another thread.

>And, as you say, the real proof of

that Ebay pudding is whether or not

the cabinets are as pretty as they

seem to be.

Rich Laski

[r_laski]

Tom,

Thanks for adding your expertise to our discussion. You saw things we didn't in the pictures and added valuable pieces of information.

Absolutely correct about that adhesive backed foam on the woofers. It only lasts about as long as the surrounds. Since you point out it is only decorative, I don't feel so bad about having to removing it completely to do a surround refoam. I certainly don't want any bits and pieces of it getting into the voice coil area when the dust cap is off.

Happy Easter

Rich Laski

[Guest Bret]

1) These are "Series II" late-70 early-80 versions, with the changeover in the woofer to the foam ring around the outside of the surround (this was a cosmetic thing entirely, and began around the time of the introduction of the AR-9).<

This is how my 9 woofers are/were. Always bugged me that I can't get another of those trim rings which were apparently just there for looks. Once they stuck to themselves it was almost as bad as trying to unwad Saran Wrap.

>It appears that the original surrounds are intact, which is very unusual.<

Unless they recently fell through a rip in space-time, I'd say it's finitely improbable.

>If you look at the surround edge closet to the cone, the AR adhesive line is still present -- never seen in the case of retrofitted surrounds, and the diameter of the half-round surround cross section appears to be the correct 3/4-inches rather than the surround-kit versions at 1/2-to-5/8-inches.

>I am fairly confident that these woofers have never been refurbished, which is a good thing if they are still intact.<

Which is almost unbelievable. On the other hand, my dad's 3a woofers (replacements in the mid 80s) are still intact.

I realize questioning you about this is about as wise as arguing the length of a yard-stick with the Bureau of Measures and Standards, but still, don't you think that right-woofer dust cap just doesn't belong there?

"(2) Both tweeters are correct and the same vintage,<

Okay. . . I'm being educated again.

The first 10pi's had the yellowish domes, no foam. (brass AR logo) That changed in what year?

In 1978 the 9 came-out with the tweeter you sold me - finished, hard cover plate, large silver ring, no foam. By 1980 we had a hard finished cover-plate, small silver circle bearing the same number as the large silver circle driver. This was the "standard" replacement driver for that driver number. I know because in late 79 or early 80 I replaced one driver in my 9's - sent 'em one aesthetic, got a different one back. About that time the 9-series developed foam inserts to the acoustic blanket, the big silver circle units were gone by then, and the 9-series used the little silver circled hard shell tweeters with the acoustic blanket foam inserts. And all replacement drivers went to a hard cased-small silver circle design but inclueded Velcro dots to hold the new foam inserts in on the 9-series speakers. Right or wrong?

Now, do I understand that we had two different tweeters going at that time (circa 1980)? The solid, small-circle, very finished-looking tweeter with-which you'd get dots, and the unfinished-looking,large-circle, stick-on foam ring version you'd get without dots for the 11, 10pi, etc?

Or was this the "standard" replacement version AFTER all the hard-cased versions were gone?

If that's the case, then it is possible to have this foam cover version in say. . . a late AR 90, and have that be correct?

Bret

[r_laski]

>AR changed from the orange-colored

3/4-inch tweeter to the black-colored

version in the second iteration of the

AR-10Pi and AR-11.<

Tom,

A question for clarification only about AR-10pi / AR-11 tweeters. I've seen what I'm calling off-white (maybe its yellow) and black versions. Were there orange-colored ones as well? I know some of the -3a tweeters where orange.

Just curious.

Rich Laski

[tysontom]

>>AR changed from the orange-colored

>3/4-inch tweeter to the black-colored

>version in the second iteration of the

>AR-10Pi and AR-11.<

>

>Tom,

>

>A question for clarification only about AR-10pi / AR-11

>tweeters. I've seen what I'm calling off-white (maybe its

>yellow) and black versions. Were there orange-colored ones as

>well? I know some of the -3a tweeters where orange.

>

>Just curious.

>

>Rich Laski

Rich,

The first AR-10Pi (it was originally called the AR-Pi-One but quickly re-named AR-10Pi before production) had the black front baffle with the AR-3a-style woofer with butyl-rubber coating on the surround. The tweeter was the new treated-fabric dome, tan or yellow-orange in color. The color may have had some variation, and it changes in time, but basically it started out as a tan color with possibly shades of orange or yellow. The very first 10Pi's had slide switches for the Environmental Control, but these were quickly changed to the tiny mil-spec toggle switches. The AR-11, incidentally, followed pretty much the same pattern of development as the AR-10Pi.

Subsequently, and before the "B" versions with the new aluminum logo plates, the AR-10 got the wood veneer on the speaker baffle in lieu of the black-painted surface of the original ones. The tweeter was changed to a black-fabric material sometime thereafter, but otherwise had the same magnet, etc. When the "B" series was introduced, all tweeters were the black color.

The new-style tweeter's only resemblance to the AR-3a hard-dome tweeter was the diameter of the voice coil and the magnet structure, which were the same. The new tweeter was more efficient, and could handle more power than the AR-3a tweeter. On-axis output was flatter, but off-axis dispersion was for some reason not quite as good as the 3a. Yet since the 10Pi had greater output on axis, its acoustic-power response was a bit better than the AR-3a.

--Tom Tyson

[Guest Bret]

>If not, maybe the next pair that comes up on eBay/Audiogon will be an original owner pair someone bought and never took out of their boxes. We can still dream can’t we?<

Yes. To proffer, perchance to dream. . .

I agree with you - our "speculating" stimulated not only your sharing what you knew, but also the appearance of the pros and I learned a few things. 1) The 10pi always, always had ferrofluid even when it had the crackable tweeter. 2)The "silver basket" drivers were not original to even the last version of the 10pi.

But it left me with a question or two also.

1) What tweeter immediately replaced the yellow tweeter on the 10pi and why?

2) When did the black baskets appear and disappear on the 10-pi?

3) What sonic difference is there in the soft and hard woofer-paper?

Happy Easter to you, too, Rich, and to every one of our founts of knowledge or casual enthusiasts here.

And a special "Happy Easter!" to Mark for giving us a place to gather and share our obsession.

Bret

[Guest Bret]

I hope whoever paid $510 for them enjoys them. They would have cost me another $100 or more to ship them. Wow.

They're worth every dime of it, too.

Oh well, I have a pair of cabinets on their way to me and I've already bought midrange drivers for them and have some "spare" 12" coming and even have one circa 1979 tweeter.

I was thinking of doing *all* the crossover "upgrades" to the bare cabinets and using the Tonegen replacement woofers in them, then A/Bing them against a "stock" pair.

Maybe another time.

Bret

[Guest]

Bret,

I could not let these slip by,been looking to long to add to my AR collection.

regards,

troubleshooter aka rjr513

[Guest Bret]

>I could not let these slip by<

I'm glad a contributor here got them. I'm very curious to hear your impression of how they sound sitting just like they were when you bought them.

Looks like you got some beautiful cabinets. Congratulations!

Bret

[r_laski]

>Oh well, I have a pair of cabinets on their way to me and I've already bought midrange drivers for them and have some "spare" 12" coming and even have one circa 1979 tweeter.<

Bret,

Those cabinets you have coming to you wouldn’t be coming from Sweden would they?

>I was thinking of doing *all* the crossover "upgrades" to the bare cabinets and using the Tonegen replacement woofers in them, then A/Bing them against a "stock" pair.<

Can you elaborate on “ *all* the crossover “upgrades”” you are talking about.

We can move this to another thread if you like. I am interested in others' comments on upgrades they have done that retained / "improved" / ruined the AR sound of their classic AR speakers, particularly crossover capacitors in the ADD / Truth in Listening series.

Rich Laski