Allison on Soundfields

[Zilch]

You seem to think that a bunch of internet hits is a big deal, but those hits are the hamburger of the audio world.

Two more systems were completed by others today, as well.

Look out, now, they are closing in on you!

You are one heck of a dancer, Zilch, but nobody here with an ounce of sense believes that you have a decent listening space.

The "Colonics 'R' Us" courtesy van awaits you out front to provide the necessary relief for your apparent difficulties with this, Howard....

[Zilch]

And showing photos of your listening and measuring space would give participants an idea of just how much real-world listening experience under ideal conditions you have had.

Check again, Howard, and I believe you'll discover that I've never said anything about how stuff sounds; that's the realm of subjective opinion and largely irrelevant to this discussion. Your stock and trade is off-topic here, despite your persistence in spamming the thread (and the site, generally) with your alleged "expertise."

Nobody should give a whit what I like, what I have, or where I listen. Ken has told you how he listens; go dump on him.

My reviews and commentaries are also more straightforward than any you have done, with opinions and conclusions that readers can actually make practical use of.

Nothing practical in what I do, nope.

It's a short bus you drive, Howard; you need a more substantive ride.

Begin here:

http://howto.wired.com/wiki/Rev_Up_Vintage_Speakers

Go here:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Boar...-1242944372.jpg

[Zilch]

First, we now know what you look like. I assume that is you in the video. I'd prefer a shot of your listening area, however.

Wrong assumption, Howard, like most of those you've made, including what Allison & Berkovitz proved.

Second, thanks to the video and that photo you posted some time back, elsewhere, we have a better idea of your environment.

Wrong again; that's the WIRED magazine west coast workshop.

Third, a generic crossover network like what you were putting together might work with some speakers just fine. However, it might not work with others that had ostensibly similar parameter ratings.

Wrong also; read what it says on the back of the board in the video.

The networks I used in my construction projects were not done on printed boards at all, but were built up with regular old point-to-point wire connections, with the components screwed and glued to wooden boards. And after building them I had to do considerably tweaking to get them to dovetail nicely with the selected drivers. A generic circuit will only be a starting point.

Read the thread and get a clue, Howard. Much as you'd like it to be otherwise, not everything is about you.

Fourth, we know now that you are in the selling business, and its sucess "may" hinge on you badmouthing items that upset your theoretical apple cart.

You're four for four now; if you were paying attention, you'd have been well aware that I designed and sold custom circuit boards to facilitate others' building EconoWaves and Indignias. RoyC showed them weeks ago in his "Mods & Tweaks" Avid upgrade thread. I'm not "selling" anything more than DIY opportunity, and anyone with the skills to do so can build the crossovers themselves as many have done; they're fully documented.

Fifth, how "stuff sounds" is what audio is all about. If person (researcher, designer, writer) does not discuss how "stuff sounds" just what good are they? If all you do is measure stuff you are missing out on a lot of interesting things in audio.

Oh, I KNOW how it sounds, Howard, but I also know that what most matters is how it sounds to others. You can find out for yourself for under $200.

Attached are some interior shots of that shop you illustrated at the end of your message. Note that it is a woodworking shop and not an audio lab, although audio work can be done out there.

Cool, Howard, now get busy and DO something (I've given you plenty of cues) lest the sum total of your legacy be "Ferstler liked Allisons better than ARs." You apparently have the skills, expertise, and facilities to contribute far more substantively to the art than mere subjective opinion here, and learn (and share) about audio in the process....

[soundminded]

Zilch, after looking and reading your input, I have several observations.

First, we now know what you look like. I assume that is you in the video. I'd prefer a shot of your listening area, however.

Second, thanks to the video and that photo you posted some time back, elsewhere, we have a better idea of your environment. Crowded, but of course maybe you have a good listening room off to the side somewhere. Show it to us as evidence that you know what good stuff sounds like in a good room.

Third, a generic crossover network like what you were putting together might work with some speakers just fine. However, it might not work with others that had ostensibly similar parameter ratings. The networks I used in my construction projects were not done on printed boards at all, but were built up with regular old point-to-point wire connections, with the components screwed and glued to wooden boards. And after building them I had to do considerably tweaking to get them to dovetail nicely with the selected drivers. A generic circuit will only be a starting point.

Fourth, we know now that you are in the selling business, and its sucess "may" hinge on you badmouthing items that upset your theoretical apple cart. Hence, your take on the AR-3a and those notorious Villchur live-vs-recorded concerts with the AR-3. Those two topic areas automatically undermine your entire approach to speaker sound. You have a vested financial interest, which explains your debating tenacity.

Fifth, how "stuff sounds" is what audio is all about. If person (researcher, designer, writer) does not discuss how "stuff sounds" just what good are they? If all you do is measure stuff you are missing out on a lot of interesting things in audio.

Attached are some interior shots of that shop you illustrated at the end of your message. Note that it is a woodworking shop and not an audio lab, although audio work can be done out there. I do the listening work inside my house, of course, within either of my two large AV rooms. Pictures of those have been posted elsewhere.

Howard Ferstler

Anything kept that tidy, neat, and orderly can't possibly be getting used. I think such organization would make me queasy just being there. A neat desk is a sign of a sick mind.

[Zilch]

PS: obviously, you are selling more than just stuff, but maybe that multitude of internet interactions you have bragged about are all you have in life, with you being the audio version of a reclusive, but still data-spouting computer geek or guru on a mountain top.

I have bragged about nothing, Howard. You asked, I answered, and you have since made an interminable deal of deriding it. The merit of what I do is in the content, which will forever remain a mystery to you, alas. I am imminently accessible to all whose interest is genuine; that ain't you, obviously....

[Zilch]

Sorry, Howard, I'm busy showing Geddes he's wrong in another forum.

[Perhaps you'll come back me up.... ]

[Pete B]

Zilch, after looking and reading your input, I have several observations.

First, we now know what you look like. I assume that is you in the video. I'd prefer a shot of your listening area, however.

Second, thanks to the video and that photo you posted some time back, elsewhere, we have a better idea of your environment. Crowded, but of course maybe you have a good listening room off to the side somewhere. Show it to us as evidence that you know what good stuff sounds like in a good room.

Third, a generic crossover network like what you were putting together might work with some speakers just fine. However, it might not work with others that had ostensibly similar parameter ratings. The networks I used in my construction projects were not done on printed boards at all, but were built up with regular old point-to-point wire connections, with the components screwed and glued to wooden boards. And after building them I had to do considerably tweaking to get them to dovetail nicely with the selected drivers. A generic circuit will only be a starting point.

Fourth, we know now that you are in the selling business, and its sucess "may" hinge on you badmouthing items that upset your theoretical apple cart. Hence, your take on the AR-3a and those notorious Villchur live-vs-recorded concerts with the AR-3. Those two topic areas automatically undermine your entire approach to speaker sound. You have a vested financial interest, which explains your debating tenacity.

Fifth, how "stuff sounds" is what audio is all about. If person (researcher, designer, writer) does not discuss how "stuff sounds" just what good are they? If all you do is measure stuff you are missing out on a lot of interesting things in audio.

Attached are some interior shots of that shop you illustrated at the end of your message. Note that it is a woodworking shop and not an audio lab, although audio work can be done out there. I do the listening work inside my house, of course, within either of my two large AV rooms. Pictures of those have been posted elsewhere.

Howard Ferstler

I'm waiting to see pictures of your cars!

Do you have a Rolex? LOL!

You know what they call people who flaunt their "stuff" now don't you ... sorry it seems that you don't!

[soundminded]

Looks like there was so much heat, everyone got out of the kitchen (I've been waiting to say that from the moment the kitchen was opened.)

Yes lots of heat...but how much light?

[Zilch]

It is preposterous for a guy like Zilch, for instance, who almost certainly (given his refusal to post pictures) lives in a junk-filled closet-sized area, to make statements about how things sound.

Thy Jacuzzi runneth over, dood!

Worse, the drapes are crooked.

Looks like there was so much heat, everyone got out of the kitchen

Naw, dinner is served, is all.

[Dessert will be a surprise.... ]

[Zilch]

Case in point:

[Zilch]

Not just technical info from post to post, but photos that show that the pontificator actually listens to good gear in a good room.

A clue, Howard, a clue....

[Shacky]

Howard,

Like the bikes! Especially the Yammy Virago's. I always wanted to get the 1100 Virago. I use the have (bought new) '78 Yamaha 650 Special. Road it to college in Riverdale NY and work in Yonkers from home in Croton.

I now ride a Midnight Star. Picked it up last year as '07 leftover at great price. Of course everything is "better" price today.

My son and I just saw a mint turbo MR2 - red. Gorgeous.

You have beautiful home and wife.

[speaker dave]

A clue, Howard, a clue....

Ooh, a Paragon!

When I worked at JBL, years ago, they were still making these for Sansui (our distributor in Japan) at about 1 a month. I remember the Asian guy who was the assembler, in a corner of the factory. I asked in the lab if anyone had ever heard one and nobody had. We all suspected they sounded pretty bad (sorry) but we were too lazy to drag a pair(?) over.

Good bones though and I suspect you could make something out of it. (Any measurements?)

David

[speaker dave]

Hey, cars - and other wheels. Here goes.

Also illustrated are a few of our motorcycles - also years ago, before we got too age bent to ride safely. All have also been sold off.

Have a nice day.

Howard Ferstler

Nice stable of Yamahas. Was it his and hers and his and hers?

Attached: my Honda 750 (just sold) and a new (1973) Schwinn Super Sport. I'm enjoying bicycling a lot now. Good for you and easier on the pocketbook.

Regards,

David

[Zilch]

I asked in the lab if anyone had ever heard one and nobody had.

Now that there is funny!

Good bones though and I suspect you could make something out of it. (Any measurements?)

It's got "spaciousness" knocked, certainly.

[Kinda hard to tell listening here in this closet, tho.... ]

[Zilch]

We have to assume that you consider that "space" shown in the photo as a good listening area - else why would you post it at all.

That's the other end of the ZilchLab Loudspeaker Recycling Center, Howard.

Those "some speakers" are what, do you suppose?

Would you guess they have enhanced ASW?

You certainly are full of assumptions.

Regarding that shot of your that shows us one small part of a piece of furniture that could be located anywhere, including a dealer showroom.

Consider yourself summarily trumped, Howard.

[OH, and close the door on your way out, please; your reverberant field is leaking.... ]

[genek]

When I worked at JBL, years ago, they were still making these for Sansui (our distributor in Japan) at about 1 a month. I remember the Asian guy who was the assembler, in a corner of the factory. I asked in the lab if anyone had ever heard one and nobody had. We all suspected they sounded pretty bad (sorry) but we were too lazy to drag a pair(?) over.

The college I went to had one of these in the alumni center (a big, modern architecture space with lots of glass and wood walls and terrazzo floors), and I heard something played on it every week for some four years. Maybe there was something wrong with this one or its placement, but I never quite understood what the appeal of these was, aside from the undeniably gorgeous cabinetry. It seemed to sound less like a stereo speaker system and more like a single, monaural speaker several times larger than it really was. Many years later I learned that it was originally conceived as the center driver of a three-speaker system, and IMO it would have been tremendous in that role.

[Zilch]

It seemed to sound less like a stereo speaker system and more like a single, monaural speaker several times larger than it really was. Many years later I learned that it was originally conceived as the center driver of a three-speaker system, and IMO it would have been tremendous in that role.

It was designed to mimick concert hall realism, the curved reflective panel generating wide dispersion. How wide, I don't know; I've never measured it.

I believe your last statement is conjecture. Do you have a citation?

In any case, Everest was the next JBL flagship speaker, and I have already posted a pic of an assembly of the essential elements.

Next is K2, and if Howard had bothered to look, he'd have found my work with that.

Current is Everest II, but at $60,000 apiece and the components not available, the best I can do is a scaled-down implementation of its design principles, which is also posted in other forums.

Bottom line? I'll spare everyone that, but it's clear a major shift in perspective on the part of a particular party is in order here....

[speaker dave]

The college I went to had one of these in the alumni center (a big, modern architecture space with lots of glass and wood walls and terrazzo floors), and I heard something played on it every week for some four years. Maybe there was something wrong with this one or its placement, but I never quite understood what the appeal of these was, aside from the undeniably gorgeous cabinetry. It seemed to sound less like a stereo speaker system and more like a single, monaural speaker several times larger than it really was. Many years later I learned that it was originally conceived as the center driver of a three-speaker system, and IMO it would have been tremendous in that role.

The design comes from a fellow named Ranger, not a JBL employee. It all stems from the early days of stereo when there were a lot of "interesting" ideas floating around. Since the main elliptical horns (and 375 compression drivers) would bounce off of the center curved surface they would form an image even narrower than the horn spacing (kind of like having a pair of Bose 901s, but the reflective rear wall was just a narrow patch in the middle between the speakers) so I'm not surprised by your "wide mono" appraisal. There was a pair of 075 bullet tweeters outboard of the horns and back in the woofer horn's mouth to widen the HF end a bit. The woofer horn dimensions didn't look big enough for much bass either.

I never heard about the center channel story but we were told about a Texas dealer. Hard as he tried he couldn't convince the oil baron that this was a stereo speaker in one cabinet. No problem, he just sold him two!

Highly sought after and collected, especially in Japan, but I think the modern Everests have a much greater chance of sounding good.

I can say all this over here on the AR site. If I said it at Lansing Heritage I would be as reviled as a JBL fan would be over here (eh Zilch? )

Regards,

David

[genek]

It was designed to mimick concert hall realism, the curved reflective panel generating wide dispersion. How wide, I don't know; I've never measured it.

I believe your last statement is conjecture. Do you have a citation?

I heard it word-of-mouth years after my experience with it. It is repeated on the site linked below, but I don't know how authoritative it is, either:

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/paragon.htm

I expect you probably know of this site.

[Zilch]

I can say all this over here on the AR site. If I said it at Lansing Heritage I would be as reviled as a JBL fan would be over here (eh Zilch? )

Nah, everybody knows the score over there, except one holdout who listens to Howard Stern on his every day....

[Zilch]

I heard it word-of-mouth years after my experience with it. It is repeated on the site linked below, but I don't know how authoritative it is, either:

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/paragon.htm

Don is the most authoritative resource on JBL history. If he says it, it is so. He's certainly correct about the Bell Labs work. Not many know that stereophony included a center channel from its very beginnings.

The Ranger article anticipates the subsequent development of Everest I.

I expect you probably know of this site.

To the dismay of many, I am a major contributor there.

Ultimately, they relented and created a new forum for my "stuff...."

[genek]

About 25 years ago I had to pass on the opportunity to buy one of these for $5000. It had been sitting unused in its elderly owner's home for decades, oprating condition unknown and in need of refinishing, but even though I had never been impressed by its sound, if I had had the $5000 I would have bought it just for the way I remembered the one at college looking in its original well-maintained glory. It was like a piece of Noguchi sculpture. Some things just look so good it doesn't matter whether they work or not.

[Zilch]

I'd be decenly happy if we could see all of this stuff set up in your listening room. If your space was decent you would have posted photos long ago. No photos means no good listening room; not a particularly good situation for an audio guru.

Not gonna happen, Howard, get over it. Rest assured, mine's bigger than yours, both of them combined, even, and the setting is spectacular. There's also a separate Media Room on site, and ZilchLab for experimenting, of course, equipped with the current industry standard loudspeaker measurement system.

Go beat on Geddes to show you his listening room so you can tell him and everyone how yours and everything else about you is better.

Clearly, others here recognized the Paragon immediately, just from a shot of one of its legs, and have heard one, even. You're in catch up mode again here; I thought for sure as the loudspeaker expert you profess to be, you would be well familiar with the world-famous modernist icon which graces my living room. Alas, they are rare and quite expensive, which likely explains your ignorance of them....

[speaker dave]

Nah, everybody knows the score over there, except one holdout who listens to Howard Stern on his every day....

So, the only speaker that makes Howard Stern sound good. Now if we could only find one for Rush...

Are we off topic yet?? No comments on the Schwinn??

David