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use of classic AR's with surround sound


Guest Pamannagloria

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Guest Pamannagloria

I have a couple pairs of older AR speakers .....AR14's , 16's , 94's that are not in use . Has anyone used older AR's with a surround sound for a TV ? If no one has tried has anyone have an opinion weather it's a good idea or not ?

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I have never used anything but "old (decent) stereo speakers for the TV sound so there would be no reason at all not to use any speaker you want. I don't know anything about the particular AR models you mentioned, having only owned AR4s, 2ax's and 3a's (and only 3a's now). But I would expect your ARs to sound a LOT better than the speakers in typical system sold today for tv surround sound.

However, modern speaker systems sold for tvs are very efficient compared to classic ARs. So if your ARs are also acoustic suspension speakers, (again, I don't know those models) you will need a LOT more amplifying power than that required by a current system available at Best Buy or wherever. That may or may not be a consideration depending on whether you have a spare amp(s) around or are willing to pick up something suitable.

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I have never used anything but "old (decent) stereo speakers for the TV sound so there would be no reason at all not to use any speaker you want. I don't know anything about the particular AR models you mentioned, having only owned AR4s, 2ax's and 3a's (and only 3a's now). But I would expect your ARs to sound a LOT better than the speakers in typical system sold today for tv surround sound.

However, modern speaker systems sold for tvs are very efficient compared to classic ARs. So if your ARs are also acoustic suspension speakers, (again, I don't know those models) you will need a LOT more amplifying power than that required by a current system available at Best Buy or wherever. That may or may not be a consideration depending on whether you have a spare amp(s) around or are willing to pick up something suitable.

Hi there;

A concern you should have, is physical placement of the front cabinets.

If you have the front left, right and center speaker cabinets too close to a TV, you will interfere with the picture, these speakers are not shielded.

For this type of system and inefficient AR speakers, maybe 25 watts per channel or more would be in order, for normal listening levels.

If you have a subwoofer, that is a speaker in need of slightly more wattage, depending on your listening needs.

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I have a couple pairs of older AR speakers .....AR14's , 16's , 94's that are not in use . Has anyone used older AR's with a surround sound for a TV ? If no one has tried has anyone have an opinion weather it's a good idea or not ?

It's a great idea IMHO. I'm usig a pair of AR4x speakers I bought in 1969 as the fronts with my 2006 plasma TV (no worry about shielding with plasma or LCD--only with CRT). I have some real nice solid oak Cambridge Soundworks for the rear, but may substitute some AR7s just to keep a consistent vintage feel.

If your speakers are good (no foam rot for example) and you like the sound and the look--go for it!

Kent

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I just completed work on a surround system consisting of AR-3a's in the front, and AR-7's in the rear. There is no center channel speaker or sub-woofer. My DVD player has the option to matrix the center channel into the left and right channels, and to route all sub-bass to the left and right as well. Given the superb imaging characterists and deep bass performance of my vintage AR's, this arrangement works wonderfully. Output of the DVD player is routed to an old Sony SQ-1000 4-channel add-on adapter (from the ealy 70's) which has discrete 4-channel inputs. The Sony in turn feeds a pair of vintage Marantz and Harman Kardon receivers for front and back channels. The SQ-1000 allows me to control the volume for all 4 speakers without having to constantly adjust the front and the back volume levels individually.

This system has exceeded my expectations in every way. Along with a 46" Sharp Aquos LCD TV, the experience of watching and hearing the beginning of the 5.1 remastered version of "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" with the orchestral crescendo culminating a great C major chord (where visually you go from black to the blinding sand storm in the desert) is absolute proof!

One advantage of using the Sony decoder is the ability to derive back channels from a two channel stereo source, either via the SQ decoding or the equivalent of what used to be known as the "Dynaquad" system. Since I listen primarily to Classical music this arrangement works very well, as most classical recordings have plenty of "out of phase" information, perceived to the ear as hall ambiance, and routed to the rear channels.

So, after my long-winded response . . . Yes, absolutely. Vintage AR's work great in surround!

Best Regards,

Rich W

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Guest PhoenixRising
I have a couple pairs of older AR speakers .....AR14's , 16's , 94's that are not in use . Has anyone used older AR's with a surround sound for a TV ? If no one has tried has anyone have an opinion weather it's a good idea or not ?

I have a fully restored set of AR9's in daily use as front R&L speakers in my home theater setup (and obviously as my main speakers for 2 channel audio playback).

I use some wonderful BIC brand Venturi's as my center channel, front L&R presence channels, and rear R&L surrounds, along with a JBL 150 watt powered sub. This setup gives me full 7.1 channel audio for TV viewing.

I use a fairly inexpensive 100 watt per channel Yamaha receiver (the HTR 5860) to drive all the BIC's and the top end of the AR9's. I have a wonderful old Hafler 500 driving the sub's in the AR9's.

I've had this exact setup in an apartment back in my single days, and then in 2 houses in my married days. The only real issue that I had was balancing the tone and volume of the AR9's to the rest of the system. I added the Hafler 500 to deal with the power hungry nature of the AR's woofer section.

In my humble opinion, the setup sounds great. It's all I'm looking for, and I can knock things off the walls if I want to. One unfortunate side effect of running quality audio components for daily tv use is that it reveals the weaknesses of the audio in the cable tv feed. There is clearly audible signal noise in the audio. I'm considering upgrading to dish for this reason.

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(From a post of mine in May 2005)--

A few additional things to keep in mind regarding Home Theater in general, whether using AR speakers or any other brand:

The LFE channel (Low Frequency Effects) does indeed contain different bass information than the regular front channels. Even if the L/R speakers are selected as “Large,” they will be sent full-range material, such as music, that is different than the material contained on the LFE (the “.1”) channel if you are using a separate subwoofer. The LFE channel usually contains the explosions, crashes, earthquakes, etc. effects that are different than the normal soundtrack.

Now, when you select “Subwoofer—Yes” from your set-up menu, most receivers/processors gather up ALL the bass below 80Hz (or whatever electronic crossover frequency you’ve selected, if yours is selectable) from the LCR, surround, AND the LFE channels and then routes it to the “.1” subwoofer output. Therefore, the bass coming from your sub output (assuming you’ve selected “L/R speakers—Small”) is a combination of the 45Hz music tones in the LCR channels and the 22Hz warp engine rumblings on the LFE track.

Two things happen when you select “Subwoofer—No” from your set-up menu. First, you lose the ability to control (via the receiver’s or processor’s remote control) the LFE/Sub level from the convenience of your listening chair. One of the best things about using a powered sub is that your receiver’s remote lets you raise or lower the sub level remotely from your seat, while the program is playing. Very handy.

The other thing that happens when you select “Subwoofer—No” is that on Dolby Digital DVDs, the LFE channel is folded back into the L/R channel signal by the receiver's processor, at a –10dB level compared to what it would have been on the separate “.1” channel. Dolby’s rationale for this was that when using regular speakers (no subwoofer), the LFE level should be reduced so as not to damage non-subwoofer speakers, but still present nonetheless (at a –10dB level) so you don’t miss any content.

As far as HT requirements for low-frequency extension are concerned, THX’s manufacturer’s requirements originally called for a response of –3dB at 35Hz with a 12dB/oct rolloff below that. Coincidentally, this is exactly the response of the AR 12”-woofer bookshelf models. However, THX’s requirement is for 105dB at the listening position (which can easily be 10-15 feet away from the physical location of the sub—do your inverse-square law SPL calculations!) in a 3000 cu. ft. room (pretty darn large—25 x 15 x 8’) without objectionable audible distortion. That’s a VERY stringent requirement, and a VERY tall order for a pair of 3a’s or 11’s. THX’s latest “Ultra 2” standard calls for –3dB at 25Hz in a 6000 cu. ft. room, under the same listening distance and distortion conditions. I’m presenting the THX standards as an objective reference of performance level, not to be construed as an endorsement of THX one way or the other. However, this is representative of how loud some people expect their HT system to play.

Bear in mind that the AR-3, 3a, 11, 10 Pi, and 9 woofers were designed to reproduce the lowest musical notes on commercially-available recordings of the day (vinyl LP’s), at SPLs that were logical to expect at the time (about 100dB max. in a normal-sized living room). While these products can be used in HT systems with very good results, they are ‘70’s-era musical reproducers first, and slam-bang special effects reproducers second. 3a-era tweeters are not ferro-fluid cooled and have somewhat restricted power-handling, especially at today's "home theater" loudness levels. Also, the 40-year-old adhesives and other materials in 3a tweeters and midranges have deteriorated quite a bit due to aging, so take that into account.

Unless you have some overwhelming desire to keep Carl or Bill Miller very busy re-building old AR woofers while making UPS even richer, I’d exercise a sane amount of caution and common sense when using 40-year-old classic AR speakers to play exploding Death Stars at deafening levels.

I use my restored 3a's only for 2-ch music at reasonable volume levels. They're extremely valuable to me, and essentially irreplaceable. I have some modern speakers that I flog for HT in another system.

Steve F.

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Guest bocoogto
I have a couple pairs of older AR speakers .....AR14's , 16's , 94's that are not in use . Has anyone used older AR's with a surround sound for a TV ? If no one has tried has anyone have an opinion weather it's a good idea or not ?

I use AR9LSi's for the mains, ARLSTII's for the surrounds, and a single AR3a for the rear channel (6.1). The ARLSTII's are ideal for surrounds because of the multi-angle tweeters and mids. Don't really need a sub with this system, but I've installed two 15" Dayton infinite baffle woofers in the floor behind my AR9LSi's. I drive the woofers and rear speaker with a Hafler DH500 and the rest of the system with a Pioneer VSX 1014, which does a great job and is flexible for this type of system. There are preamp level outputs for every channel, if you need them. I use the preamp level outputs only to drive the DH500.

There are no "boxed" systems that compare with the above AR system!!

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(From a post of mine in May 2005)--

A few additional things to keep in mind regarding Home Theater in general, whether using AR speakers or any other brand:

I use my restored 3a's only for 2-ch music at reasonable volume levels. They're extremely valuable to me, and essentially irreplaceable. I have some modern speakers that I flog for HT in another system.

Steve F.

Hi Steve;

I used AR-3A's in stereo mode with my tv until the LST's took over that special position.

Even my AR-4X's made a number of movies that much more enjoyable.

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I have a couple pairs of older AR speakers .....AR14's , 16's , 94's that are not in use . Has anyone used older AR's with a surround sound for a TV ? If no one has tried has anyone have an opinion weather it's a good idea or not ?

My lst surround system (before I moved, haven't set up a new one yet) consisted of a pair of AR-2ax's for front L&R and a pair of AR-6's for rear L&R. I didn't have a center channel set up, and didn't find a subwoofer necessary. Surround sound isn't any different from any other. As long as your speakers and amps are properly matched and you don't overdrive anything, there isn't really any difference between an exploding Death Star and the end of the 1812 Overture.

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I have a couple pairs of older AR speakers .....AR14's , 16's , 94's that are not in use . Has anyone used older AR's with a surround sound for a TV ? If no one has tried has anyone have an opinion weather it's a good idea or not ?

It has proved very successful in my case. I use classic AR-9's for the mains, AR-90's for the surrounds and an AR-2ax for the center. Larry of Classic AR modified the AR-2ax by replacing the tweeter with an AR-9 original. With a little tweeking of the AR-2ax pots, the front sound stage is seamless.

I am currently using Boston Acoustics A-70's for the rear speakers until I can find suitable AR replacements - however, I expect there might be diminishing returns at this point.

I do use big amps (Lexicon) to drive the speakers and I don't use a subwoofer. Despite routing the LFE channel to both the 9's and the 90's, the Lexicon amps seems to loaf along.

Remarkably, the salesman who sold me the Lex didn't think I was crazy using 30 year old speakers with new electronics. Everyone who has heard my rig has said, "Whatever you do hang on to those speakers." You may find that whatever flaws exist in these old AR speakers tend to blend themselves away in a surround sound system.

I don't post much on this site as I'm too busy enjoying listening to my AR surround system.

John

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