Jump to content

Capacitor's re-visited


Recommended Posts

Hi there;

There is a link to another site regarding a review for crossover capacitors.

The link is:

www.humblehomeadehifi.com/cap.html

(Do not click on it, re-type the entire line.)

I am not badmouthing this person's efforts and results, up front.

I went there a few times, I even printed out the results.

I am more confused now than before I read the report as to which cap to use in replacing in my Dynaco A-25 or Larger Advent, for example.

Confused as in what caps to use, at least in my case.

There was 27 different caps used in the various and combination tests.

In my opinion, if that person was to do a review of a 2 way classic speaker, I at least would have a better grip as to which cap to use.

For example, a single Larger Advent, Dynaco A-25, A-35, A-50, AR-4X, EPI 100, or other acceptable 2 way speaker, but only one, with a simple crossover network.

I sort of had the feeling he was checking mid ranges and newer tweeter drivers as well.

There was even the occasional secondary cap bypass, which adds to my confusion.

The tester did a lot of work and I admire him for the job done, very time consuming and expensive.

It reminded me of Stereophile test reports of a speaker system and they list all of the associated test equipment and cables used.

Heavens if you owned other equipment or cables.

When a new members posts the question, "which cap should I use", we have lot's of posts which list's primarily Solen and from Parts Express.

I went to Parts Express last night to download a few of their pages of caps, very interesting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Bret

Yeah, Vern, I feel your frustration.

In all my rantings about capacitors I haven't tried to answer the question "why" which is all-important. I just don't have the facility to generate an L-R-C graph for every capacitor I've tried or any way to tell if there is any noise caused by the capacitor. And as the engineers amongst us will certainly note, I don't even have the capacity to "form" new electrolytic capacitors before I use them. How do I know when that process is complete?

Because I wasn't and am not trying to re-design our old speakers, my comments are at the level of "which brand of jeans shall I buy" rather than "to what can I attribute the fact that brand x wears like this and brand y wears like that?" I'm going to buy a pair of jeans based on the question, "Have I been happy with these in the past and does this pair fit?", not by analyzing how many stitches per inch are in the seams.

While I'm sure that L, R, & C are not all of what goes-on in a capacitor, I'm getting mellower and am more willing to accept that they are the most important things going-on.

It may well be that the Zens I like so well are just a little more resistive than the things I've compared them to. Maybe not. Don't know, don't care. I just want to find a combination of things that does not obviously "cloud" the signal.

I'm becoming more interested in the least expensive way to get there.

With regard to the review; it would be really interesting to know what all the "warm" capacitors have in common that causes him to describe them that way. Ditto his other adjectives.

I'd hate to have to pick-out the "warm" capacitor in anything other than an A/B test anyway. Get them home and install them in a pair of speakers, walk away for a few hours, come back and turn on your system and you can't tell which capacitors are in there. You really have to have something to compare against to get a descriptor going because these observations rely on relationships.

This capacitor is "bright" (compared to what?) or this capacitor is "neutral," (again, compared to what?). If you change the capacitors you are tweaking the crossover, so even comparisons with live acoustic instruments aren't valid.

Even if you can honestly say, "The Stupendocap Ultra XL IV reproduced YoMaMa's Cello Concerto in E Sharp flawlessly when compared to the sister antique Telecaster Rastafari cello identical to YoMaMa's which I keep in my closet," you don't really know quite why.

Amazingly, I'd expect someone who wants to argue with me about which capacitor sounds good to also argue that they all "sound alike" which is clearly untrue. It would be nice if they did, but they don't. It isn't practical to ask "why" because, in the final analysis, we're going to go buy something and install it. The answer to the question, "What do I use?," needs to be understandable and clear. I've been very bad at being understandable, or clear, or brief.

The possible exception to my new-found humility and even apathy would be the observation that electrolytic capacitors are going to be more inductive and resistive than(good)film caps. I really don't want too much inductance on my tweeters, but maybe the ESR is a good thing in moderation.

I really am going to try by-passing an electrolytic with a film cap and see if that cures the trouble I think I hear with an electrolytic capacitor used alone on a tweeter. I just don't have a good test-bed speaker at the moment.

Bret

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have tweeters - I've even got a pair of 14s and a pair of 2axs laying around. I've "experimented" on a pair of 14s already and I found them to be of questionable help. I thought they would be good because the crossover is so simple. It was frustrating.

I think I've come to a different conclusion about that. I think the best way to isolate any differences that might exist is to ask those differences to show themselves within the tightest range possible; meaning that a tweeter that "goes low" might be showing me too much ESR effect (which I accept is important). I'm fairly sure I'm not good enough to isolate one change from another.

The problem I'm having philosophically, and I'm relative sure Roy has already experimented with this to the point of finding a scheme to get a satisfactory result, is that a capacitor with an "average" ESR of .2 ohms is not the same as a .2 ohm resistor. A .2 ohm resistor is going to resist everything at .2 ohms. A capacitor with a .2 ohm average ESR is going to have frequencies where the ESR is essentially zero and frequencies where it is much higher than .2 ohms.

I *think*, Vern, and I could be very wrong about this, that what I object to with NPE capacitors is their inductance at high frequencies. I have no way of confirming that except by ear and we know how suspect and even fickle subjective listening can be.

Some of us really do prefer *something* about poly capacitors. I hope most of us, here, would not simply prefer them because they allow the system to be brighter. If we wanted speakers with tweeter glare we wouldn't choose AR and KLH etc.

I was hoping to get my hands on the pair of AR-11s in Birmingham and use those to try a little something. I wanted to recap them with NPEs (probably some "brand" like Jensen or another "premium" NPE just to make me feel more secure about it) and run a very small value "by-pass" capacitor on a switch. I want to see if it's really as simple as preferring brightness. I hope not, but I would own up to it if that were the case.

We know, as Ken has said, that changing the capacitors alters the crossover. What if just doing a tweeter capacitor by-pass would leave well enough alone, but take care of the "issue" with NPEs?

You know, it has even occurred to me that maybe I have the entire relationship backward. What if (I'm not saying this is so, just what-if-ing) it could be shown that the poly capacitors are, for whatever reason, noisy?

You know that the *addition* of noise can *enhance* our ability to hear "clearly" if it is done just right. I don't pretend to understand the mechanics of that or its corollary in imaging, but it is accepted as true. While I know that experts who do this are very careful about what noise they add, it seems reasonable to me that we might be experiencing an accidental application of it.

Maybe the "noise" way, way, way up high that I might not even really know I hear that isn't even really signal makes things I can hear more intelligible. Doesn't it stand to reason that if I discern a triangle's ring better that it *might* be because of some noise allowing it to stand-out better?

They inject noise with telephone transmissions (or used to) to make human voice more easily understood, maybe something akin to that is going-on when we swap these passive components around. That might possibly point to a reason that different capacitor types in a preamplifier (a very low-noise environment with steady voltages) cannot be identified by even careful listeners, but a crossover capacitor (in a much noisier place with wildly swinging voltages) can sound different.

I want to believe Pete when he says that capacitors are all alike, and I want to believe Ken when he says that changing capacitor types will change the crossover, and I have to believe my ears which tell me that Ken is right but that something is "wrong" with NPEs vs poly caps. It doesn't mean throwing the baby (improvement) out with the bathwater (tonal balance change being a thing we strive to avoid). I have to believe that Pete is either wrong, or perhaps is being a bit too rough-spoken and absolute about the "kind" but I know he's right about the need to attenuate the high-end if you use nothing by polys.

On the other hand, you already know that I felt the Solens I used were awful. Yeah, those speakers definitely needed the tweeters and mids attenuated so I could stay in the room with them. But the Zens on the same drivers transformed the same CD on the same system into something entirely different. There it is and it is what it is and I can't change what happened to accommodate anybody else's opinion of what should have been and I can't prove a negative (that I wasn't fooled by my expectations, especially since I didn't have any). But even the Zens, as Ken predicted, changed the balance of the speaker. This could probably be somewhat remedied by Pete's suggestion of adding resistance.

No matter who is the most-correct, I would like to find a method of cheaply nearly replicating the original function of the original NPEs while avoiding giving myself the "sensation" that things are slightly out-of-focus; which is what I get using NPEs by themselves.

Eventually a pair of 3as, 11s, 10pi's, or 90s will find their way to me and I'll do my little experiment even if it is taken seriously by no one but me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Bret;

As usual a great write-up.

My question here is, how long did you burn-in the Solens?

Not that only the cap was at issue, at Stereophile Magazine, some testers used to burn them, woofers, tweeters and crossovers, in, by facing the enclosures face to face, with the wiring out of phase and turning up a test tone or other test and let it run wild for a few days or a week.

After all of that, I don't really know what was burnt in, caps, woofers or tweeters or everything?

There always seemed to be a comment on how they are sounding different, for better or worse, usually for the better.

Then the reviewer would go on to write-up his test report.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

>Hi Bret;

>

>As usual a great write-up.

>

>My question here is, how long did you burn-in the Solens?

>

>Not that only the cap was at issue, at Stereophile Magazine,

>some testers used to burn them, woofers, tweeters and

>crossovers, in, by facing the enclosures face to face, with

>the wiring out of phase and turning up a test tone or other

>test and let it run wild for a few days or a week.

>

>After all of that, I don't really know what was burnt in,

>caps, woofers or tweeters or everything?

>

>There always seemed to be a comment on how they are sounding

>different, for better or worse, usually for the better.

>

>Then the reviewer would go on to write-up his test report.

In written correspondence privately with John Atkinson, editor of Sterophile magazine, he told me he always 'breaks in' speakers before undertaking a review. He does hear an amprovement.

He and other reviewers at Sterophile have spent most of their lives, day in and day out listening to audio gear. So, I have to take their comments as being at least partly valid.

For what it's worth.......

It's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

>My question here is, how long did you burn-in the Solens?<

Vern, I guess all this is deep in the forum somewhere, and I may get the details wrong here, so know that I'm going to answer "truthfully" although I may have a fact a little wrong.

The Solens I used were the higher voltage variety (500v??) as opposed to the 200 or 250v versions.

They were "burned in" for weeks (many hours each week - many, many, left playing but at low volume most of the time). They were at a friend's house and he listened to them as his main speakers there. I only "visited" from time to time and I felt there was a difference over a couple of weeks. (but you know that auditory memory really sucks; really sucks; we remember our impression, we don't have DAT decks in our heads)

When we ran the A/B with Zen and Solen the Solen was harsher weeks later. After hearing the Zen (it could have been anything, but it was a Zen) the "offense" in the Solen could be identified as "grain."

John O'Hanlon has enlightened us with a very good explanation for "why" but I understand him to say he admits that nobody has proven that his explanation is the right one. It's possible I misunderstood him.

I was able to "tame" the Solens, months later, with a by-pass capacitor across *all* of them. Now, years later, I have no idea how close they may be to the Zen capacitors.

But again, this whole "brand thing" is a losing proposition and a slippery slope. I only assert the differences because some people assert that there is no difference. Poppycock. I'm sure 6uf is 6uf is 6uf, but the ESR is different and the inductance is different and I would imagine that the capacitance is not uniformly constant across the bandwidth of interest.

Heck, the resistance in the LEADS is different. Is it reasonable to think that someone can hear the resistance in the leads? Probably not. That's probably within the tolerance of an "exact" match. Something, though, is different. Would any of the possibilities pass QC? Probably.

Going back to what we saw in the AR-11, there were speakers put together with a single value capacitor. There were also speakers put together with that value reached by paralleling capacitors. We KNOW that doing that drops the ESR of that capacitor value but no other thing was changed in the crossover; therefore, either AR didn't care (I doubt that), or AR did not consider that change to be important to the overall design.

But Vern, this is much ado about very little. I would like to find a solution that is simple to repeat, like, "Buy NPEs from Madisound and by-pass the ____ capacitor with a _____."

But let me tell you the thing that makes me less optimistic about doing that: In my 9s I ordered capacitors using values found in the library. The values were wrong, so after re-capping most of the upper cabinets I found I needed two capacitors I didn't have.

In one of the 9s I left the original capacitor in that spot (parallel 8uF across the upper midrange), in the other I had already wrecked the original and had to use a new Solen. The new Solen was vastly better than the old NPE. As it turns-out, the old was bad. So when I got the right value of Zen and used that I reacted with a "Holy cow! How can that be that different?" Not only was it different than the old, bad, cap, but it was also different than the Zen.

These are ALL different even if the difference isn't all that important.

I realize that's a long answer to "how long did you burn-in. . ." but that's more or less the whole story. Months later the Solens weren't quiet, were made quieter by by-passing BUT I don't know if they ever settled down to "Zen-quiet." I'll say it again: Without a quick A/B, your auditory memory is just terrible and cannot be relied upon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Bret;

Thank you again for a great write-up, Bret.

Interesting about the, "grainy", Solens.

I read last year about someone elses impression that the different voltage rated Solens sounded different, for the same value capacitance.

So, my understanding is as of today, it is good Karma to use Zen capacitors. LOL LOL

Did I read correctly, recently, Zen is no longer available?

Are they expensive?

Compared to Solens at least?

Does the idea of a needed 6 uf capacitor best be served by a Solen 5uf cap bypassed by a 1 uf Solen to get the better sound results?

Or possibly even another type of capacitor?

Does adding a 1.0 - 3.3 ohm w-w resistor in series sound like a good idea as well, when replacing the old original NP electrolytic caps?

Your previous data may be lost deep in a topic somewhere else but I certainly enjoy reading your writings now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Vern,

I think the Zen is still available. I've been told it is.

BUT, yes, they are expensive. Not as expensive as other magical audiophile capacitors, but expensive none-the-less. I'm not sure, at all, that they are "necessary."

Go back and look at Rich Laski's AR-11 subjective tests. John tested some NPE capacitors for him and I think I remember that Rich couldn't tell an expensively re-capped speaker from one with Sprague NPEs once he used all tested, all known good NPEs. This was in one post, one time and really surprises me. But maybe it's understandable after-all. Maybe when you get the cabinets truly in-balance, octave-to-octave, that's all that's needed. I truly don't know.

I have confidence in the Zens to be extremely clean-sounding (even if, as I said before, it has nothing to do with cleanliness), but I'm not confident that this is the best way of getting that result. It certainly isn't an inexpensive way.

No, I wouldn't add resistance with new NPEs. I think you'll find it isn't necessary. Pete was talking about replacing the missing ESR when you substitute poly caps for NPEs.

3 BTWs.

First; the AR-9 "parallel bundle to reach 8uF" wasn't JUST a Solen, there were NPEs in that mess.

Second; While I don't understand how George Short intellectually explains the difference in capacitor builds, he does prefer one construction of "by-pass capacitor" over another BUT BUT BUT his choice changes with the specific tweeter being fed! What possible chance do we have of "figuring-out" anything from observations like that? None.

Third; John's explanation of why a poly might need a "break-in" period centered around the film's being manufactured with tiny holes in it which would heal over time with use, but that wasn't an explanation for the graininess. Explaining the graininess was a bit more esoteric. On the other hand, John as much as anyone, anywhere, is an authority on this subject and should have his assertions taken as gospel until proven otherwise.

Bret

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Vern/Bret:

When I recap a classic speaker with Solens, I play a repeating track of pink noise thru them for 16-36 hrs at relatively high volume (80-90 dB). Pink noise reproduces the entire audio spectrum with equal power density at all octaves. This starts the process of braking them in. I recommend to customers to continue the process when they take them home. I believe the relatively high voltage thruput also helps speed up the break in process.

Virtually all Solens are rated at 400 Volts. Typical MPP caps range from 200-400 volts. Although, I once upgraded an audiophile speaker crossover with Mundorf Supreme Silver oil caps that were rated at 1200 volts. They were big. Really big caps can sometimes become a problem of where to put them.

The size of the cap seems to be directly proportion to the voltage rating (more surface area in the windings of film and foil is required to raise the voltage rating).

IMO, NPE's have limited lifetimes, similar to foam surrounds. They will tend to leak over time and eventually, the ESR rises and subsequently, the SPL falls which is exactly why the original caps (most vintage 60-80's speakers used NPE's) have failed - resulting in our need to replace them.

Pete B. had a good idea to put a low value resistor in series with a new MPP cap. Something in the range of .25 to .5 ohms. The reason for this is so the tweeter has a similar level of resistance ahead of it as it did with the original NPE's. Modern, audio-grade MPP caps have lower ESR's than NPE's - hence more power is delived to the tweeter resulting sometimes in slightly higher SPL's. There is one other option to consider also for taming that brighter sound. It's that tweeter level control on your preamp or receiver.

Bundling of NPE's seemed to be standard practice of Peter Snell. However, I don't think he did this for voicing reasons. After having worked on a numbe of Snell xovers, I found he used the same value as much as he could in different arrangements to get the uF values he wanted. I suspect he got a better volume discount by buying large quantities of the same value cap. 4 uF seem to be one of his most popular NPE's.

Which cap sounds best? My answer is the same as I've written before: sonic beauty is in the ear of the beholder.

I'd say don't take anybody's word as gospel. So, loosen up that wallet a bit and try a few different brands and DECIDE FOR YOURSELF!

It's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

>In written correspondence privately with John Atkinson, editor

>of Sterophile magazine, he told me he always 'breaks in'

>speakers before undertaking a review. He does hear an

>amprovement.

>

>He and other reviewers at Sterophile have spent most of their

>lives, day in and day out listening to audio gear. So, I have

>to take their comments as being at least partly valid.

>

>For what it's worth.......

Yes, for what it's worth, keep in mind Atkinson and his reviewers are in the business of selling advertising space to those who would have you believe exactly what most audiophiles believe about capacitors. I'm not saying you should take Pete B's observations to the bank (I've had more than one sharp exchange with him) but this is one area I believe he is probably correct about. However, if you really really want to know the truth, my suggestion is to contact a very large industrial manufacturer of capacitors such as Mallory or CRC. Their customer support engineering department or product applications department will give you the truth with no baloney. If you ask the small guys who sell to audiophiles, you already know what they are going to tell you, their super duper capacitors do everything short of curing cancer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

>In written correspondence privately with John Atkinson, editor

>of Sterophile magazine, he told me he always 'breaks in'

>speakers before undertaking a review. He does hear an

>amprovement.

>

>He and other reviewers at Sterophile have spent most of their

>lives, day in and day out listening to audio gear. So, I have

>to take their comments as being at least partly valid.

>

>For what it's worth.......

Yes, for what it's worth, keep in mind Atkinson and his reviewers are in the business of selling advertising space to those who would have you believe exactly what most audiophiles believe about capacitors. I'm not saying you should take Pete B's observations to the bank (I've had more than one sharp exchange with him) but this is one area I believe he is probably correct about. However, if you really really want to know the truth, my suggestion is to contact a very large industrial manufacturer of capacitors such as Mallory or CRC. Their customer support engineering department or product applications department will give you the truth with no baloney. If you ask the small guys who sell to audiophiles, you already know what they are going to tell you, their super duper capacitors do everything short of curing cancer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Much of the discussion both here and at the AR area about caps has been about apples and oranges.

On the one hand, we have the 'break-in' debate. Does it really help any given cap?

On the other hand, we have the 'NPE/mylar' vs boutique cap debate.

a) Will they sound any different new?

and :) Secondly, will they sound any different after a few hundred hours of break in?

Perception is everything, regardless of the science and statistics.

Maybe there is some truth to the 'brain break-in' hypotheses?

If a builder, restorer or DIY'r is happy with his/her sonic outcome at the end of the day, it doesn't matter which cap or amount of break-in was used.

Has anybody closely analyzed .wav file traces regarding the above a) & B) to see if there are any answers?

It's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

fyi

Here is another review of audio grade capacitors. Most reviewed are very high end. Although, Solens are included as well as some other cap constructions used in original classic speaker crossovers.

There seems to be about as many different cap constructions as there are opinions about their sonic performance characteristics. IMO, that says something in itself.

I liken this area of audio to the automobile marketplace. There are many different makes of automobiles and they all basically get you from one place to another. However, there are also many different levels of quality and features that attract consumers who, upon purchase, are generally satisfied with the choice they have made (ah, here's that subjectivity factor raising it's ugly head again).

IMPORTANT NOTE: THE REVIEWS ARE BASED SOLELY ON A SINGLE PERSON'S PERCEIVED PERFORMANCE IN AN APPLICATION USING A 0.1 uF VALUE IN A PREAMP. THE REVIEWER CLEARLY STATES THE RESULTS SHOULD NOT BE EXTENDED TO SPEAKER CROSSOVER APPLICATIONS, TUNED CIRCUITS OR HIGH FREQUENCY FILTERS.

Get ready for some 'sticker shock' regarding pricing.

What is also worthy of note here is the reviewer seemingly heard differences between capacitors and broke each evaluation sample in using white noise for 500 hours!

Now, that's dedication.

It's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"If a builder, restorer or DIY'r is happy with his/her sonic outcome at the end of the day, it doesn't matter which cap or amount of break-in was used."

It does when the cost differences are enormous. Real engineers understand value for money, diminishing returns, and invest the cost of making products in things that actually provide their customers with useful improvements, not merely fodder for advertising hyperbole. Tinkerers on the other hand will swear water is wine if that's what helps them sell their products.

Speaking of cost Carl, I couldn't help but notice that the most expensive SEAS 27 mm tweeter I could find in my 2004 Madisound catalogue was $30 and the most expensive 5" midrange was $46. For two AR3a upgrades, that's a total cost of $152 yet with that and nothing else more than a couple of 9 element crossover networks and a few other cheap parts you charge $450 or more. I know prices may have gone up since 2004 but c'mon, not by that much. Why are your kits so expensive or do you buy the parts retail and then mark them up substantially again?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't get the wrong impression. I am NOT trying to promote high end anything. Just providing another perspective on this ongoing, seemingly never-ending discussion.

With regard to my Super-Mod kit, you'd better update your 3-year old Madisound Catalog and at the same time figure in the cost of 4 new Ohmite rheostats and, by the way, the cost of a couple of hundred hours of personal development time that a customer will avoid by simply assembling the kit which will include a full warrantee and instructions. Additionally, two tweeter adapter plates and mid enclosures will have to be fabricated for each new order = more time. Economies of scale are non-existent as well.

Yeah, there are a number of technical/DIY types that visit here who want to get the most value for least cost. There are also a number that aren't technically inclined that could use a kit like this if it meets a need...time will tell.

Check the price on Layne Audio's AR3a kit of similar scope. It's been out there for quite a while. Mine has been introduced only recently and costs less.

Another customer benefit - I actually do respond to the inquiries they make via e-mail or phone!

It's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems to me one could far more easily and cheaply buy an already built pair of high quality two way speakers in small enclosures, turn the AR3a upside down so that the tweeter end becomes the stand placing the woofer about a foot from the floor, and place the two way on top of it. A passive subwoofer crossover or bi-amplification using an active crossover or an equalizer for the midrange/treble section would serve as well. Many of us have lots of extra amplifiers hanging around given as how much high quality used equipment has become dirt cheap.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

>It seems to me one could far more easily and cheaply buy an

>already built pair of high quality two way speakers in small

>enclosures, turn the AR3a upside down so that the tweeter end

>becomes the stand placing the woofer about a foot from the

>floor, and place the two way on top of it. A passive

>subwoofer crossover or bi-amplification using an active

>crossover or an equalizer for the midrange/treble section

>would serve as well. Many of us have lots of extra amplifiers

>hanging around given as how much high quality used equipment

>has become dirt cheap.

Have at it Soundminded - you always know best!

It's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"and, by the way, the cost of a couple of hundred hours of personal development time that a customer will avoid by simply assembling the kit which will include a full warrantee and instructions."

It seems to me over the years customers have paid for about a hundred billion hours of "research" and after 75 years the perfect speaker is nowhere in sight. How hard it must be to make a merely fair one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bret, your observations seem to be pretty much in agreement with mine, but you've missed a few things.

First of all, Solen's ( and most all other high voltage caps ) REALLY do need to be "formed" prior to installation. This makes a HUGE difference in terms of transparency and speed.

Secondly, the "grain" that you were hearing was due to not forming the caps AND the legs of the cap resonating. While i don't know if i've mentioned it here, i know that i've talked about keeping the legs of the caps as short as reasonably possible AND damping the leg as it enters the body of the cap. This gets rid of the metallic ringing or "harshness" in the upper frequency range that you were hearing.

Thirdly, once the crossovers are completed and the speakers are re-assembled, you need to feed them a steady state signal for an extended period of time. The Ayre Acoustics disc entitled "Irrational But Efficacious" works wonderfully for this as it has several different types of noise ( pink, white, brown, etc... ) along with a full bandwidth ( 5 Hz to 20+ Khz ) "Cardas sweep tone".

The longer that you can feed them continuous signal, and the higher the amplitude ( without damaging the drivers and / or annoying the piss out of your wife and neighbors ), the more thoroughly the speakers will break in. The audible differences after 3 days of 24/7 mid to high level signal can be pretty amazing, let alone what one gets after 2+ weeks of doing this.

Be careful with the Ayre disc though, as it starts off with 5 seconds of silence and then feeds a 5 Hz signal to the woofers. Needless to say, vented woofers will be flopping about like mad if they can respond down this low.

Outside of all of this, keep experimenting and learning on your own. Most here will never know or hear what you are experiencing. This may even include some "experts" on the subject. As you've come to realize, some of what we can hear can easily be measured, whereas some of what we hear can't easily be quantified.

Best wishes and good listening... Sean

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

>The longer that you can feed them continuous signal, and the

>higher the amplitude ( without damaging the drivers and / or

>annoying the piss out of your wife and neighbors ), the more

>thoroughly the speakers will break in. The audible

>differences after 3 days of 24/7 mid to high level signal can

>be pretty amazing, let alone what one gets after 2+ weeks of

>doing this.

Assuming your ear drums are still fully functional, I imagine ANYTHING would sound pretty good after listening to that for 3 days, let alone after 2+ weeks :-).

Roy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is easy to do if you have a system in a remote part of the house or one is rarely at home. Obviously, if there are multiple people residing in a single system dwelling, you have to try and do the best you can. That is, playing the system using the aforementioned disc or music at mid to higher levels when nobody is home and turning down as necessary. For most people, that means a good 8 - 10 hour workout per day when they are at work and lower volumes when everyone is home.

In my experience, this "break in" or "settling" of components is necessary even if one has "formed" the caps prior to installation. I know that many will scoff at this, but it is my belief / experience that all conductors ( wire, solder joints, electronic parts, etc.. ) all take time to come to their "electronic sweet spot". Drastically altering the operation of a device, even after an extended period of operation, can alter said sweet spot. By drastically altering the operation of the device, i'm talking about pushing the system and / or individual component thermally or electronically into a realm where it normally does not operate.

My Brother did not believe the above and told me that i was a nut many times over. When he helped to re-engineer my Father's speakers, he was stunned to say the least. He became a believer based on the observed results, which were phenomenally audible to say the least. In that specific situation, i really wish i would have documented the before / during / after parameters of operation, but i didn't. The fact that my Brother, who was a complete skeptic, agreed with my assessment is good enough for me.

Several others, who were also quite familiar with my Father's system before / after the speaker rebuild, were also quite convinced. One gentleman, who owned the same brand of speakers, asked if i could "fix" his speakers too. Before this, he never realized just how "broken" they really were. The fact that these were newer, highly reviewed speakers that cost appr $7K a pair might tell you something :) Sean

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sean:

For another perspective on the subject of loudspeaker and capacitor break-in, check out the 7/28 post in the 'capacitor myth' thread in the AR area and learn about psycho-acoustic masking.

It's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...