* * POLL **

[Guest rickcee]

Hi don't know how to set this up

What would be your near 'fantasy' Hi Fi piece ? Say you have a new neighbor, who happens to be in hi fi, turns out he's always wanted 'classic AR' but never got . . . and happens to have the item YOU"VE always wanted, never got - arrange a 'trade' for a month

You'd want -? ? Speakers, diff amp, fancy turntable . . .

Me I've always sortof wanted Bose 901 ( wouldn't set up properly, too much other stuff . . . a little expensive for me) or the big ESS Heil spks with tweeter that blasted forward and back . . .

[Guest Bret]

I'd love to borrow a pair of Apogee Duetta speakers.

I always wanted to try the big Infinity QR from the late 70s, too.

BTW - I've seen both the ESS AMT-1_ and the ESS Monitor for sale on ebay fairly cheap. And the diaphrams are still available. Foam rots on them, too.

The specs were slightly better on the monitor (the passive radiator is on the front, the cabinet sides go up past the top of the Heil AMT), but I always preferred listening to the AMT-1b's even though they were funny-looking.

Bret

[Guest Sean]

Bret: You've got pretty good taste. As long as you're fantazing, you should also wish for some STURDY amplifiers to drive those speakers with : )

Rick: Bose 901's are nothing to write home about. I've owned them and would never consider going back to them under any circumstances. That is, unless i was completely broke, had NO speakers at all and someone gave them to me. Even then, i would probably sell them and buy something else.

As far as the ESS speakers go, the tweeter is a gem and the woofers could never keep up. The fact that they tried to take a large woofer and have it blend with such a fast tweeter well into the midrange frequency region always had me scratching my head. To top it off, passive radiator's are about the slowest type of low frequency alignment that you can get, so that was yet another step backwards when trying to match the speed and finesse of the Heil tweeter.

As such Rick, i would suggest finding some other fantasies. You are probably dollars ahead by having them not come true : )

[Guest Bret]

>As long as you're fantazing, you should also wish for some STURDY amplifiers to drive those speakers with : )<

Ah HA! Surprise surprise, Sargent, I just got one.

Well, I hope I did. Tonight will be my first experimenting with my Sunfire Symphonic Reference amplifier with the downtracking dowhatsits power supply. Very interesting concept.

250watts/channel into 8 ohms, 500w/ch. into 4 ohms, 1,000w/ch into 2 ohms. . . and supposedly stable. Apogee, where is thy sting? Now we just gotta see what it sounds like.

Bret

[Guest Bret]

>The fact that they tried to take a large woofer and have it blend with such a fast tweeter well into the midrange frequency region always had me scratching my head. <

I don't remember the model number of the smaller ESS speakers, but we couldn't give them away. They were "thin-sounding" and the version of the Heil they used in them was just. . . a tweeter.

I wondered why why why they went to that polyprop woofer and a passive radiator. I guessed they were looking for cone stiffness, not for the bottom, but for the top. It didn't make much sense that they would do that and then use a passive radiator. But they advertised the passive radiator like it was a big deal.

By the way, I would think that being a participant here on the Classic Speaker Pages would be prima facia evidence of "good taste," wouldn't you? ;-)

Bret

[ToastedAlmond]

Waking up to a pair of Allison IC-20 speakers wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

[soundminded]

Tell you what, Rickcee, since we are dreaming, you can have my original Bose 901s in perfect condition in exchange for my fantasy. JBL D44000 Paragon. OK, I may be crazy but if money were no object, this would be the toy I'd go for. And to power it, while we're dreaming in retro-color, a McIntosh Mc275 Power Amp and a C22 Preamp. I already own the Empire turntables so that would complete MY dream system. Of course, one day, when I am being particularly foolish and ready to get into something way way way over my head, I will probably try to build a Paragon myself. It will undoubtedly be a futile and naive attempt and the results will be a disappointment or a disaster but that won't stop me. I'd probably be better off just biting the bullet buying one used if I can find one and be willing to part with $10,000 to $20,000 it usually takes to get it. You can't easily reverse engineer these. They were apparantly extremely complicated to build and of the 1000 or so ever built, there were probably no two exactly alike. And what would I do if I had them? Tweak them until they sounded as good to my ears as my enhanced AR9s. Nothing is sacred. At least not to me.

BTW, here's a site to look at them on.

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/paragon.htm

[Guest rickcee]

HOLY COW funny how the brain works ( sometimes) I actually remembered a mag. test of JBL paradam from early '60's . . .went back - looks like it was basically 2 Klipsh horn types in one large, pool table size furniture piece. got excel. review sound wise.

I tend to have a little passing curiosity about diff. types - ESS Heil, Infinity Electrostatic tweeters ( if that's even what they were.). pretty much ZERO interest in 'high end ', for exampe Wilson spks. enjoy Rick

[soundminded]

If you look at the web site I referenced and go to the landmark product just before the Paragon was introduced, you will see that the JBL Hartsfield was a two way horn loaded system for corner placement designed to go head to head against the Klipschorn but with the finest quality drivers available at the time, not the average quality drivers Klipsch was using. The Paragon was two 3 way horn loaded systems (but not corner horns like the Hartsfield or Klipschorn) which were laid on their side. it used the best drivers JBL had at any given time. The 15 inch woofers were mounted deep inside in the middle and the bass emerged through the openings at each end. The midrange horns were mounted at the ends firing at the curved center reflector and the 075 ring radiators were also burried deep inside firing crosswise through the end openings. The system is visually striking and quite unique. It weights about 850 pounds. The diffusion principle described in Richard Ranger's paper is also unique and undoubtedly caught the attention of other people looking at interesting ways to improve stereophonic sound presentation. How much would you like to bet Dr. Amar Bose considered that idea before developing his 901? The speaker was the most expensive consumer audio product of its day. When I first saw it, it retailed for $1800 and eventually got as high as $4000, a monumental sum of money at the time. I haven't heard one in many years but like other landmark equipment such as KLH9, Infinity ServoStatic 1 etc., it made quite an impression on me. Other speakers come and go and some of them may perform better, even much better, but these are the types of unforgettable products which stick with you. Whoever designs them throws the book away and writes his own brand new book. And isn't it wonderful that a company like JBL would not just dismiss it out of hand but would actually build it as their flagship product for 25 years.

[ToastedAlmond]

I believe I saw a JBL Paragon (I've also heard it referred to as "Ranger" Paragon?) when I took a tour of the Air Force Academy chapel way back in the 80's. It was up in the balcony by the choir and organ.

In the 70's, I worked selling hi-fi for a company called Record World. One of our lines was JBL. The Century series and all that stuff. L16,26,36,55,100 etc. The flagship JBL piece in our store was a pair of "Sovereign" speakers. I drove them with a HK Citation 11 and 12 combo, which I felt was the best stuff we had instore. The JBL's sounded absolutely terrible. Big, 15" woofers and bullet tweeters. Something else with a lens on it looked like some kind of Venetian blind or something. I always wondered if all these features helped to make them sound bad. Typical JBL sound from the top of the line to the bottom. Everything comes out sounding like electric guitar, which is fine if all you want to do is listen to guitar rock. Electric violin, electric flute, electric tuba, now that is a different kettle of fish.

I much preferred the sound of the KLH Model 6 or Bozak B302 "Century" speakers we also carried.

[soundminded]

It always seemed to me that JBL had a penchant for assembling the best drivers available in the industry into the worst sounding speaker systems. There is no denying the incredible quality that went into the manufacture of them. But you must keep in mind that they were designing speakers for that "west coast sound" which was targeted at the movie industry and they also tried to maintain a kind of corporate signiture sound. I agree that the century was an awful sounding speaker IMO to many of us accostomed to much more accurate reproducers such as AR, KLH, and Advent. I wondered if the east cost/west coast sound was just a myth until I read it in Sam's Audio Handbook, a very highly respected reference text for engineers. I still believe that the sound of these loudspeakers can be "salvaged" and made into something far better to my ears just the way I am experimenting with Bose 901s. Inside the boday of the Ranger Paragon is some of the finest made hardware to be had.

BTW, if you read the history of the Paragon, you will see that Colonel Richard Ranger was a consultant hired by JBL and was a pioneer in the development of loudspeaker systems. His "diffusion" principle used in the Paragon was unique at the time and must have been considered by Doctor Bose. The rejection of using reflected sound to advantage by most speaker manufacturers is IMO an unfortunate choice since it is inevitable. To understand it and exploit it to the greatest degree possible makes much more sense to me than to ignore it and hope it goes away because it never does.

[roundhome]

Hello here is a sight to get a set of plans for the paragons for 300.00

http://www.audioclassics.com/brand.php3?brand=JBL

Jim

[Guest bob33]

I would want a pair of vintage altec model 19s paired up with a pioneer speck one amp speck four amp and a soundscraftsman amp maybe a mcontosh amp a sae two tuner. Correct my spelling if i got it wrong but i think this would sound great probably would be extremely loud though.

[Guest Bret]

I'd want a pair of the Pass Labs X1000 monoblocks, a Marantz SACD player with an SACD of "Master of Reality" (Black Sabbath), and a pair of Cerwin-Vegas I heard in the mid 70s at The Sound Gallery that had 15" woofers, 12" midrange drivers, and a couple of horns for the top. . . don't remember their model number.

Oh, and some suspension-bridge cable looking "audiophile" speaker wire.

No need for a volume control. After a minute or so you couldn't hear it anyway and it'd all be a Sensurround experience only. Many would consider the almost instant hearing-loss something of a blessing. 'Course. . . you might have to register that combination as a WMD.

And Vern - I wouldn't have to fuse my speakers because they have resettable circuit breakers!

Bret

[dynaco_dan]

>I'd want a pair of the Pass Labs X1000 monoblocks, a Marantz

>SACD player with an SACD of "Master of Reality" (Black

>Sabbath), and a pair of Cerwin-Vegas I heard in the mid 70s at

>The Sound Gallery that had 15" woofers, 12" midrange drivers,

>and a couple of horns for the top. . . don't remember their

>model number.

>

>Oh, and some suspension-bridge cable looking "audiophile"

>speaker wire.

>

>No need for a volume control. After a minute or so you

>couldn't hear it anyway and it'd all be a Sensurround

>experience only. Many would consider the almost instant

>hearing-loss something of a blessing. 'Course. . . you might

>have to register that combination as a WMD.

>

>And Vern - I wouldn't have to fuse my speakers because they

>have resettable circuit breakers!

>

>Bret

Hi Bret:

Whenever I read a funny, I always think about the beginning of, "Back To The Future", where Michael J. Fox strums on a guitar in the professors lab and I laugh.

[Guest MPPurcell]

>[Richard Ranger's]...

>"diffusion" principle used in the Paragon was unique at the

>time and must have been considered by Doctor Bose. The

>rejection of using reflected sound to advantage by most

>speaker manufacturers is IMO an unfortunate choice since it is

>inevitable. To understand it and exploit it to the greatest

>degree possible makes much more sense to me than to ignore it

>and hope it goes away because it never does.

Well, you sure captured my imagination, Soundminded. I don't remember the JBL Paragon, but I won't forget it now. Maybe if you build it,...they will buy it.

Anyway, the concept is not entirely foreign to me, so I must have heard about it back then with some part of my brain. Did no one else ever design anything like this or use the principle in their speakers? Seems like there must have been some other examples of this... I presume the horns are switched, Left & Right--right? Tweeters must be switched too, but probably not the woofers?

What strikes me is that one part of the story, the idea of using this as a kind of center channel, to prevent the rapid movement of sound sources across the stage as listeners move R & L, might still be viable today and fill a need. With the more and more active use of subwoofers today, you would not really require large speakers. I wonder if this concept could be used for a much smaller system, even as a "center channel" that would be in some way composed of R & L?

Michael

[draftingmonkey]

Bret,

Since you mentioned ESS, I happen to have the AMT-4 with the tri-sided heil tweeter and a 10" butyl surround woofer. Interesting in that the tweeter sits above the woofer enclosure and under the top, with the space open front to back.

I also have a pair of the ESS Performance Series Model 4 which are a tower speaker with I believe a 10" mid, 10" woofer and a surface mount heil tweeter.

I use the AMT-4's for my rear speakers on my main system, front speakers are dlk Model 4's, and the PS Model 4's may be hooked up to my Marantz 2225 or my Sansui AU-555 (still thinking).

Very nice sounding speakers. Just wanted to throw that out there.

James

[soundminded]

JBL Paragon D44000 was unique. Only about 1000 were made and they took over a hundred hours each to make, much of the time taken to finish the exquisite cabinet. No two are exactly alike.

As a functioning speaker, it was a pair of 3 way folded horns laid sideways in a mirror image configuration. The 15" woofers were burried deep in the system and their sound emerged from large openings at each end. Also burried deep in these openings were the ring radiator tweeters which fired diagonally across the front. The midrange horns were mounted externally in front almost pointing sideways towards the curved reflector in the middle which redirected their sound, hence the "diffusion" concept. The total integrated system was about 9" wide and weighed about 850 pounds. A smaller version called the Metrogon was also available. This is the first speaker system I am aware of which gave special consideration to the problems of stereophonic sound reproduction and the first to deliberately use reflected sound not counting possible full way dipole electrostatic models like KLH model 9.

I don't know if this was particularly much more accurate than any of JBL's other superhorn models but it was both visually striking and impressive to listen to. Bass response was strong down to 26 hz making it among the top LF reproducers of its day. The high efficiency and vast power handling capacity of the drivers made speakers of this type suitable to fill almost any space with sound including a large theater.

If I built or owned such a speaker, like everything else in audio I own, it would become a toy to tinker and play with. In the nearly two years I have been experimenting with original Bose 901, it has evolved into an excellent speaker of very wide range and accuracy. I've managed to not only preserve its direct/reflecting principle but improve it by providing a 12:1 reflected/direct radiating ratio at high frequencies. Its perceived frequency response is now very flat, extended, and accurate and I am highly pleased with it. As with my other speakers I've altered, it sounds substantially different from what other speakers sound like to me including the way the manufacturer indended these models to sound like. Now my ideal toy at least in terms of loudspeakers would be one which has the timbre of my enhanced AR9s and the direct/reflecting radiating pattern of Bose 901. I want everything in one package.

[Guest bubslewis]

Back when I bought my first "real" speakers, I got 4 BOSE 501 series II speakers with 4 Microstat high frequency units to sit on top of them. Those were the days when I was searching for true quadraphonic sound.

But... the best speaker I heard was a large Altec Lansing speaker. Can't recall the model but it was about six feet tall. A pair of them were still considerably more than the BOSE's and Microstats put together.

In the late 80's I added a pair of Bang&Olufsen Pentas for about $3,000. A hefty output for my budget.

But... the best speaker I heard was a Magnaplaner(sp)which had absolutely beautiful sound (again can't recall the model). But it was a little out of financial range plus it required a monster high current amp.

Looking back, I should have sacrificed. I guess it's too late tocry now.

[soundminded]

The Altec speaker may have been the A7 or A7-500 Voice of the Theater used as studio monitors by many large recording companies in the mid to late 1950s and 1960s. I have speculated that their upper midrange lower treble peak may have been responsible for the characteristic sound of many vinyl phonograph records which made more accurate speakers like AR3 sound dull because records were equalized to mitigate that peak during final editing. That speaker was far more suitable to theaters than home use.

The Magneplanar speaker you refer to may have been the Timpani IV, a three panel per channel floor standing magnetodynamic speaker which required enormous amplifier power and a subwoofer. I heard them several times once used with a Janis subwoofer. They need to be at least three feet from the wall behind them which can mean drastic compromise to room decor and unusable in small rooms. They also have severe limitations in dynamic range and may have a characteristic upper bass/lower midrange FR dip which so many "audiophile" speakers have giving them the perception of greater clarity. Their successor is probably the MG 3.6 current top of the line unit. I attribute the characteristic sound of planar type speakers including electrostatics to their radiating pattern, not lower distortion which is what most of their proponents claim. If I'm right, you can build an equivalent system using conventional drivers. I think that is what speakers like Mirage M-1 are about.

Developments over the last 2 years using HF supplementation and re-equalization of Bose 901 have improved performance to the point where I would no longer trade them for a JBL Paragon. The only possible new goal for me would be to design a speaker/amplifier combination which combines the best attributes of Bose 901, AR9, AR LST, and my own ideas. The only thing stopping me right now is the cost, I've been toying with various design possibilities and they are daunting.