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Upgrading crossover caps in Large Advents


Guest esmachers

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Guest esmachers

This thread was originally started in #377, "Advent experiment - mod - much better sound IMO" and was taking it off track. This is really more about problems I'm having with my large Advents after replacing my electrolytic caps with Polys.

Below is where this picks up from over there. I hope others find this useful.

Hi Pete,

Thanks for the great suggestions and offer to check out my network. I live in Maryland near Annapolis so doing this in person won’t be possible. Let me try your suggestions and see where it gets me. If I get lost perhaps I can mail some parts to you. I don’t have a good supply of resistors so it’ll take me a little while to come up to speed.

I’ll draw out a schematic and post it to make sure I’ve got things right before starting.

I REALLY appreciate your help with this. I really am having fun.

Steve

>Hi Steve,

>

>The 2.2 ohm reading is just fine, mine measured 2.35 and

>Advent says approximately 2 ohms. If your curious it is good

>to also measure each of the drivers to see if they match and

>far off readings can indicate a problem. One thing to note is

>that the tweeter connections, on those old tweeters go through

>screws that you might want to make sure are clean and making

>good connections. You might have also noticed my comments

>about the switch:

>

>http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/dcbo...g_id=&page=#707

>

>Remember that cleaning all these connections will bring the

>tweeter level up if there was corrosion and high resistance.

>

>The most likely issue is that the ESR of the electrolytics has

>gone up with age and it is likely that the polys make the

>system sound more like it did when new.

>

>First I suggest that with the speakers as currently wired you

>put your system in mono, put the speakers side by side, and

>use your balance control to switch between the two.

>Do they sound the same?

>

>If they do we can leave one as is and wire the poly back up

>but with a 1 ohm resistor in series to simulate the ESR that

>you prefer. It would be best to bring out the connections so

>that you can try different resistor values in order to match

>the reference speaker. Use music that your familiar with,

>interstation FM noise, or test CDs. Try the poly alone but

>this time compare against the other speaker with the

>electrolytic still in place - do you still hear a large

>difference?

>

>New electrolytics typically have about .2 to .3 ohms of ESR

>and this is just about 10% of the 3 ohm decrease resistor, so

>it is not that significant but probably is barely audible.

>

>I'd be willing to measure the electrical frequency response of

>the network with the electrolytic, and the poly in order to

>determine the best way to address your question, are you in CT

>or nearby by any chance?

>

>Let me comment that you now have a hybrid of Rev1 and Rev2, to

>complete the Rev2 upgrade you need a low DCR, .45 mH inductor

>in place of the old 2.2 ohm red dot type. It is true that the

>difference is only in the extended position and even the

>hybrid is better than the original.

>

>Pete B.

>

>

>>Hi Pete,

>>

>>I replaced the capacitors in my large Advents with Bennic

>>polys from Madisound: 16uF for the C1 capacitor and 8uF for

>>the C2 “increase” capacitor that was previously 16uF. While

>I

>>was in there I disconnected the tweeter and measured the DCR

>>of the L2 shunt inductor. It read 2.2 ohms in each speaker.

>>Note: I don’t have the most accurate DMM so that could be

>off,

>>but L2 is definitely not shorted.

>>

>>I replaced the caps in one speaker first and thought I liked

>>the sound so I did the other speaker. After that is when my

>>ears started to hurt. The speakers were incredibly harsh in

>>all 3 switch positions. This setup truly sounded like a

>>transistor radio with a subwoofer. And, if I was listening

>to

>>a weak FM station, i.e., one with a little background

>static,

>>it was unbearable.

>>

>>Undaunted, I left the caps in place over the weekend to see

>if

>>it was just me being overly sensitive. By last night my

>>soldering iron couldn’t heat up fast enough. I put my

>original

>>16uF electrolytics back in. I left the 8uF caps in place for

>>now since I usually listen to these speakers in the “normal”

>>position.

>>

>>Anyway, I’m at a loss. I don’t have a capacitance tester so

>I

>>can’t verify the Bennics but they are marked as 16uF and

>>physically they are about twice the size of the 8uFs.

>Further,

>>after heating up the electrolytics twice now to

>>desolder/solder them I’m really concerned about their

>>reliability.

>>

>>Ideas and comments are appreciated.

>>

>>Thanks,

>>Steve

>>

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Steve,

Just $0.02 comment. I used some 400V Solen capacitors to replace electrolytics with much the same result. They got only very slightly better over the course of a weekend.

It took literally hundreds and hundreds of hours of play to get them to settle-down and stop sounding like nails across a chalkboard. Weeks of near-continuous play.

They eventually formed and mellowed-out to a great degree.

Bret

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Guest Ken Perkins

Bret,

You have described EXACTLY why I don't care for Solen caps. This has been my experience in virtually everything I've used them in from vintage upgrades to my own DIY projects over a six year period. Words like harsh, too forward, shrill, nail dragging...these are all words I've used to describe them.

I takes for EVER for those caps to smooth out and even then I found I could live with them more if they were bypassed by a small film and foil. I've determined to simply never use them again and stick with Dayton/Bennics for regular upgrades and DIY and I use Sonicaps if I'm using a premium tweeter like a Scanspeak 9500 (my fav. 1" dome) or Hiquphons (my fav. tweeter, period).

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>Bret,

>

>You have described EXACTLY why I don't care for Solen caps.

>This has been my experience in virtually everything I've used

>them in from vintage upgrades to my own DIY projects over a

>six year period. Words like harsh, too forward, shrill, nail

>dragging...these are all words I've used to describe them.

>

>I takes for EVER for those caps to smooth out and even then I

>found I could live with them more if they were bypassed by a

>small film and foil. I've determined to simply never use them

>again and stick with Dayton/Bennics for regular upgrades and

>DIY and I use Sonicaps if I'm using a premium tweeter like a

>Scanspeak 9500 (my fav. 1" dome) or Hiquphons (my fav.

>tweeter, period).

Hi there;

Just adding my 2 1/2 cents worth to this topic.

I read somewhere in the last few months a comment, that with Solen caps, there was an initial sonic difference with the same capacitance, but with different voltage ratings.

I have noted, that almost every but not all capacitor replacements that I have ever read about, the person had used a Solen cap, and I don't remember all of the negative breaking in comments though.

Out of curiosity what do the Dayton/Bennic caps go for and also the Sonicaps?

This is a good and very interesting topic, thank you

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Steve is using Bennic polys not Solens, so would you please start a thread about "capacitor harshness" or whatever, rather than take this thread off topic.

I use Solens often and do not see this effect. Capacitor forming as the term is used by engineers and scientists only applies to electrolytic caps. Film cap break in is a concept fabricated by creative audiophiles.

I just got off the phone with a friend who also mainly uses Solen caps and he agreed, he does not see/hear this effect.

Please go start a thread about this subject if it interests you.

Pete B.

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>I use Solens often and do not see this effect.<

That's because you have to use your ears and not your eyes.

>Capacitor forming as the term is used by engineers and scientists only applies to electrolytic caps. Film cap break in is a concept fabricated by creative audiophiles.<

Wow, yeah, let's not have any audophiles around here. . .

Okay, so I mis-termed the healing of the pin-holes in the film "form" since it was quick and I thought we'd all know what I was talking about. But don't you find it odd that the very thing that makes the poly superior (the healing) is something that doesn't happen in a new cap? I would think that an engineer would take this into account.

>I just got off the phone with a friend who also mainly uses Solen caps and he agreed, he does not see/hear this effect.<

That makes a worldwide majority of two? What is he using them IN? Can't even do a decently scientific ABX test with two people.

>Please go start a thread about this subject if it interests you.<

I was interested in seeing if there was some way I could help a fellow-traveler. I assumed you needed no help. He did what was suggested and hated it.

And as I don't want to clutter, sully, or ever trash-up this forum the way that people who assert things they haven't tried manage to do with flame-wars in public forums, I will go now.

I promise henceforth to stay out of your way provided you show me the same courtesy.

[You are aware that highly educated, prize-winning, scientists and engineers wrote scientific papers on why we would never break the sound barrier, aren't you?]

Bret

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Bret,

Please continue your input. Every personal impression and bit of information is valueable. Isn't that why we have this forum?

I replaced the caps in my AR3as with Solen. I do find things harsh but I don't know if it's totally the caps.

Since I own a second pair of AR3a's and have been meaning to re-cap them anyway, I will go with Bennic or Dayton and "see" if I can hear the difference.

I know this is an Advent thread but I also have Large Advents and while I'm ordering for the AR3a caps I might as well get my Advent re-capped. The Advents are definitely harsh.

With shipping and handling being fairly expensive, it's worth making one order out of it.

Also, I'll run a break in track over and over from a test CD I have. It's a track that runs the whole frequency response with noise. I don't think I have hundreds of hours on those Solen caps yet.

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Guest Ken Perkins

The Dayton/Bennics are slightly less expensive than Solens. The Sonicaps are slightly higher but not priced as high as so called "boutique" caps. Danny Richie at GR Research measures all of his Sonicaps and writes the value to two decimal places on the outer skin so you know exactly what values your are getting.

Since we all hear and are sensitive to treble differently, I don't doubt some may not have had problems with Solens. Lot's of people use them with no problems.

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Guest Ken Perkins

My ears tell me I don't like Solens and if I suggest a cheaper alternative like Daytons, what's the problem? And do we ALL hear the same way? Is it not possible that some people are more sensitive to differences in treble quality than others?

In spite of the fact that the Advents don't use highend tweeters in them I used the Sonicaps. I did not choose Sonicaps based on an "audiophile" mentality. I chose them because I wanted my upgrades to use the best parts I could afford. If it was overkill, it was worth it. I'd do the same if it was my car or something that needed to be done to my house. That's how I do things. I trust my ears and experience.

You're remarks are just more evidence to me of what a polarized society we live in today. Left/right, black/white, red state/blue state, those who hear things differently/those who thing everything sounds the same. I just don't understand why opinion doesn't matter any more and it's more and more of a sin in audio to describe what something sounds like.

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Good for you Ken, good that you spend your money the way you want to.

And certainly you have a right to your opinions, but the fact is that your shoving them in peoples faces in a thread that does not involve you. In fact you've made reference to your crossover upgrades in an off topic way in my thread, why don't you start your own? I say this in a constuctive way.

This thread starts out addressed to me, it is about Bennic caps. Now do you have anything to say about Bennic caps? Do you have any concrete suggestion for Steve, note you've not made one so far.

Are you suggesting he burn them in? If yes, then say so, and suggest a method. For the record I don't believe in burn in and I know how to remove harshness from a design.

Are you suggesting he try another brand cap? Why don't you suggest one? You stated in the other thread which parts you selected by ear, do you have to keep repeating yourself?

Now I can't help but notice that you bring up your specific favorite cap, could it be because it is the one, notice I did not mention the brand, that was the boutique cap in the switch test that I wrote about here:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/dcbo...g_id=7361&page=

Do you expect to shove your opinions in my face, and have me sit silent when in fact switched tests by speaker builders and audio music lovers showed they could not hear a difference as compared to an inexpensive electrolytic? You should note that when I offered a contrary view, I did it in a new thread to allow readers to see both sides and make their own informed decision.

Now drop the character attacks, I find them offensive. The fact is, I don't care what caps you favor, or if you think they require burn in, those are your opinions and I'm fine to agree to disagree. It seems based on your actions here that it is you not me who is intolerant.

Pete B.

>My ears tell me I don't like Solens and if I suggest a

>cheaper alternative like Daytons, what's the problem? And do

>we ALL hear the same way? Is it not possible that some people

>are more sensitive to differences in treble quality than

>others?

>

>In spite of the fact that the Advents don't use highend

>tweeters in them I used the Sonicaps. I did not choose

>Sonicaps based on an "audiophile" mentality. I chose them

>because I wanted my upgrades to use the best parts I could

>afford. If it was overkill, it was worth it. I'd do the same

>if it was my car or something that needed to be done to my

>house. That's how I do things. I trust my ears and

>experience.

>

>You're remarks are just more evidence to me of what a

>polarized society we live in today. Left/right, black/white,

>red state/blue state, those who hear things differently/those

>who thing everything sounds the same. I just don't understand

>why opinion doesn't matter any more and it's more and more of

>a sin in audio to describe what something sounds like.

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Guest russwollman

Do remember, gentlemen, this is a hobby,so —"have fun, play nice, don' fight"—as my bubba used to say in English with a strong Yiddish flavor.

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I really do not want to have to exert "big brother" authority in these forums, but will if I have to.

Personal attacks and flame wars are not acceptable on The Classic Speaker Pages. I understand flame wars have become a tradition on lots of audio sites and newsgroups, but I won't accept them here - the content on this website, contributed by visitors, is too unique and valuable.

I need everyone to moderate themselves. Please take the higher road if you think you have been slighted, and chalk it up to agreeing to disagree and the nature of Internet communication.

I have been receiving email about how some threads have devolved and become very aggressive. I don't have time to keep on top of all the threads, and the time I do have I would prefer be spent on updating content and fixing bugs.

Hopefully this is the last time I have to post something like this. Again, I don't want to have to delete threads and revoke posting access, but I will if I need to - if simply to reduce the time I spend dealing with complaints.

Mark

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>Do remember, gentlemen, this is a hobby,so —"have fun, play

>nice, don' fight"—as my bubba used to say in English with a

>strong Yiddish flavor.

Hello Russ!

Good advice,

As my now long passed on Papou (Greek for Grandpa) used to say, if this was the biggest problem (capacitors) in your life you should be very happy. You might notice that I don't have a problem with capacitors.

Pete B.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi Steve,

I'd like to hear if you've solved this problem, whatever the solution.

Well, I've got some new poly caps to try in some Advents, however, I'm using the boxes to test/compare stuffing material at the moment. Don't know when I'll get to some cap listening tests.

Pete B.

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  • 2 months later...

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