AR-3 tweeter issue

[simark]

Hello Gentlemen;

This is my first post on this site so please excuse me if I sound like a blathering fool.

One of my AR-3 tweeters has not shown signs of life for a while. I attributed this to a dirty pot, so they were cleaned out. The tweeter still doesn't work.

When I disconnected the black wire from the pot and tested for continuity it shows that there is continuity.

The pot is a replacement and shows up OK.

Are there any other test I can do with a plain multimeter that would tell me the problem? I don't want to replace the tweeter unless I know for sure that it is fried.

Attached is a picture of the crossover and of the tweeter from the back end.

Thanks for all your help, this site has been amazing.

[onplane]

You could try by-passing the pot entirely and see whether you can get any sound (see below).

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/2627.jpg

Then try the TPTT:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/dcbo...ing_type=search

If you still get no sound, try swapping the caps. If the cap is totally bad it could be open.

Hope this helps...

Regards,

Jerry

[Carlspeak]

Try putting a VOM acsross the thin aluminum leads on the front side of the tweeter. You should get an ohms reading in the 2-3 range.

If you get no reading, then a wire may be disconnected somewhere in or around the tweeter dome or the tweeter is fried.

If you get a reading but still no sound on input from the back connectors, check the connections under the black tape again the front side of the baffle board near the tweeter.

Or, try onplane's suggestion.

It's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

[simark]

>You could try by-passing the pot entirely and see whether you

>can get any sound (see below).

>

>

>http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/2627.jpg

>

>

>Then try the TPTT:

>

>http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/dcbo...ing_type=search

>

>If you still get no sound, try swapping the caps. If the cap

>is totally bad it could be open.

>

>Hope this helps...

>

>Regards,

>Jerry

OK, I'll try to bypass the pots.

How do I swap the caps? All I see is the big cardboard double cap under the inductor? I don't see anywhere the other 6Mfd cap.

Thanks for all your replies.

[simark]

I checked the resistance at the aliuminum wires and I get a reading of 0.012 ohms. Is this an indication of a buggered tweeter?

[onplane]

>I checked the resistance at the aliuminum wires and I get a

>reading of 0.012 ohms. Is this an indication of a buggered

>tweeter?

Sounds more like the pot is miss-wired. I'd by-pass the pot completely and then use to TPTT test to see if you can hear any sound. Naturally, you'll need a music source with high frequencies like a drummer's cymbals.

Regards,

Jerry

[simark]

>>I checked the resistance at the aliuminum wires and I get

>a

>>reading of 0.012 ohms. Is this an indication of a

>buggered

>>tweeter?

>

>

>Sounds more like the pot is miss-wired. I'd by-pass the pot

>completely and then use to TPTT test to see if you can hear

>any sound. Naturally, you'll need a music source with high

>frequencies like a drummer's cymbals.

>

>Regards,

>Jerry

Thanks for the reply Jerry, but the tweeter leads were totally unsolded from the pots and the resistance checked from as close to the tweeter aluminum leads as I dare get. 0.012 Ohms.

I'm hoping that this doesn't mean I'm out a tweeter.

Stan

[Carlspeak]

>>>I checked the resistance at the aliuminum wires and I

>get

>>a

>>>reading of 0.012 ohms. Is this an indication of a

>>buggered

>>>tweeter?

>>

>>

>>Sounds more like the pot is miss-wired. I'd by-pass the

>pot

>>completely and then use to TPTT test to see if you can

>hear

>>any sound. Naturally, you'll need a music source with

>high

>>frequencies like a drummer's cymbals.

>>

>>Regards,

>>Jerry

>

>Thanks for the reply Jerry, but the tweeter leads were totally

>unsolded from the pots and the resistance checked from as

>close to the tweeter aluminum leads as I dare get. 0.012

>Ohms.

>I'm hoping that this doesn't mean I'm out a tweeter.

>

>Stan

Yeah, I think it does. :-(

It's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

[onplane]

>

>Yeah, I think it does. :-(

>

That's an awfully low reading. Something is shorted and it could be the voice coil.

Any chance the aluminum leads are touching together prior to the tweeter?

Regards,

Jerry

[tysontom]

>Hello Gentlemen;

>This is my first post on this site so please excuse me if I

>sound like a blathering fool.

>One of my AR-3 tweeters has not shown signs of life for a

>while. I attributed this to a dirty pot, so they were cleaned

>out. The tweeter still doesn't work.

>When I disconnected the black wire from the pot and tested for

>continuity it shows that there is continuity.

>The pot is a replacement and shows up OK.

>Are there any other test I can do with a plain multimeter that

>would tell me the problem? I don't want to replace the tweeter

>unless I know for sure that it is fried.

>Attached is a picture of the crossover and of the tweeter from

>the back end.

>Thanks for all your help, this site has been amazing.

On the front of the AR-3 is a tweeter-terminal strip, and there are three terminals -- one common and one hot to the midrange and one hot to the tweeter. Take a screwdriver or knife and carefully scrape the surface of the terminals. Take a flashlight 1.5v battery and connect a wire to both battery terminals (best to solder), then take the wire from one terminal of the battery and hold it on the center lug of the tweeter terminal strip; take the wire from the other battery terminal, put your ear close to the tweeter and quickly touch and release from the terminal lug going to the tweeter. This should cause a faint crackling sound from the tweeter if it has continuity, and this will give you an idea if the tweeter is open or still has continuity. It is very difficult to make contact with the aluminum tweeter voice-coil wire, and sometimes wire lacquer continues all the way up to the terminal strip.

The original level controls have been replaced by someone with something else, and there may be some problems here as well.

--Tom Tyson

[simark]

>>Hello Gentlemen;

>>This is my first post on this site so please excuse me if

>I

>>sound like a blathering fool.

>>One of my AR-3 tweeters has not shown signs of life for a

>>while. I attributed this to a dirty pot, so they were

>cleaned

>>out. The tweeter still doesn't work.

>>When I disconnected the black wire from the pot and tested

>for

>>continuity it shows that there is continuity.

>>The pot is a replacement and shows up OK.

>>Are there any other test I can do with a plain multimeter

>that

>>would tell me the problem? I don't want to replace the

>tweeter

>>unless I know for sure that it is fried.

>>Attached is a picture of the crossover and of the tweeter

>from

>>the back end.

>>Thanks for all your help, this site has been amazing.

>

>On the front of the AR-3 is a tweeter-terminal strip, and

>there are three terminals -- one common and one hot to the

>midrange and one hot to the tweeter. Take a screwdriver or

>knife and carefully scrape the surface of the terminals. Take

>a flashlight 1.5v battery and connect a wire to both battery

>terminals (best to solder), then take the wire from one

>terminal of the battery and hold it on the center lug of the

>tweeter terminal strip; take the wire from the other battery

>terminal, put your ear close to the tweeter and quickly touch

>and release from the terminal lug going to the tweeter. This

>should cause a faint crackling sound from the tweeter if it

>has continuity, and this will give you an idea if the tweeter

>is open or still has continuity. It is very difficult to make

>contact with the aluminum tweeter voice-coil wire, and

>sometimes wire lacquer continues all the way up to the

>terminal strip.

>

>The original level controls have been replaced by someone with

>something else, and there may be some problems here as well.

>

>--Tom Tyson

>

Ok Tom:

I just tried that. Nothing. I guess I'm looking at a tweeter repair.

What would be a reasonable price for a repair or is it better to hunt for a replacement?

I traced the wiring diagram versus the wiring in the speker and it all seems to check out, except the missing 6 MFd cap, which I understand is not in all AR-3's.

While I have your attention, there is a set of tweeters on e-bay right now (Item number: 200145088172) that are advertised as replacements for AR-3's and AR-3a's.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...:MEWA:IT&ih=010

What is your opinion of going this route versus getting the old tweeter repaired?

Thanks for all your helpful hints and suggestions.

[dynaco_dan]

Hi there;

You need to hunt down original AR-3 1 3/8" dome tweeters.

Rarely seen on ebay but every so often they are up for sale.

The tweeter you have linked us to is not an AR-3 replacement tweeter in all senses of of the word.

It may be suitable for you with AR-3A's or AR-LST's with additional crossover modifications done.

There is at this time, no drop in, sound exactly the same tweeters manufactured for the AR-3 speaker system.

My advice, wait for an opportunity to buy a used unit or two, for the most satisfaction.

[simark]

Ok, that is what I had suspected but this came up and I had to ask.

Is it feasible to have the tweeter repaired?

Thanks,

Stan

[Carlspeak]

Try Vintage-AR in Albany, NY. If thay can't do it - :-(

It will probably cost you as much to fix it as buy a new, equivalent replacment tweeter which they sell as well.

Gool luck!

It's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

[simark]

OK, I'll wait for a used tweeter do come along.

In the mean time is there a reasonably close sounding tweeter I can put in until an original can be found?

Thanks.

Stan

[RoyC]

Stan,

Larry Lagace (aka Vintage AR) lives about 10 minutes from my residence, and we have often discussed this issue. Unfortunately, there are no equivalent tweeters to any of the old domes. Some folks will replace both tweeters at once with the AB Tech replacement tweeter (he sells it as well) and find it acceptable, but it will NOT sound like the original without a crossover change.

Larry may have an original AR-3 tweeter, however, and is well worth contacting. (I know he doesn't have any 3a tweeters at the moment because he hit me up for one yesterday :-).)

Roy

[tysontom]

>

>Ok Tom:

>

>I just tried that. Nothing. I guess I'm looking at a tweeter

>repair.

>What would be a reasonable price for a repair or is it better

>to hunt for a replacement?

>I traced the wiring diagram versus the wiring in the speker

>and it all seems to check out, except the missing 6 MFd cap,

>which I understand is not in all AR-3's.

>While I have your attention, there is a set of tweeters on

>e-bay right now (Item number: 200145088172) that are

>advertised as replacements for AR-3's and AR-3a's.

>

>http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...:MEWA:IT&ih=010

>

>What is your opinion of going this route versus getting the

>old tweeter repaired?

>Thanks for all your helpful hints and suggestions.

>

Stan,

Most of the suggestions that have come forward are good ones, especially regarding finding another AR-3 1-3/8-inch dome on eBay. They appear from time to time, and to get the correct sound balance, an original-equipment AR-3 dome is your best bet.

You can also try one more thing: locate a section of the aluminum lead wires (under the black tape) and take a knife and carefully and gently scrape away any insulation. Then try the battery test to this again and listen close to the dome for any sound. Inspect the lead-in wires where they loop up and then back down into the edge of the dome itself: this is a place where fractures often occur and the wires can break at this point. Sometime this can be repaired, but it is difficult.

If the tweeter has been burned out or has "popped," it cannot be repaired, regardless of any claims to the contrary. Unless one of the leads going into the dome has fractured and separated, repairing the dome's voice coil is a lost cause. The four foam pads that "suspend" the dome will be destroyed once opened, and there is no way to "pour" foam back into the gap; even if you could re-wind the aluminum-wire voice coil, which is nearly impossible itself, keeping the voice coil a uniform size without the original production-alignment jigs would be extremely difficult if not impossible. Even Acoustic Research had difficulty making this dome: about 50% of the production-line dome tweeters wouldn't meet spec, were rejected and had to be rebuilt.

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/2660.jpg

AR-3 1-3/8-Inch Tweeter "Popped" out of its gap

--Tom Tyson

[JKent]

Hi Tom

Actually, that particular tweet was from a 2ax. See this thread:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/dcbo...id=13818&page=2

I have TWO "popped" ones! It was heartbreaking to "part out" a really nice pair of 2ax's purchased from CSP member George, but the popped tweeters left me with little choice. Good luck to you, Roy, John, anyone else working on the replacement tweeter issue!

Kent

[johnieo]

>I checked the resistance at the aliuminum wires and I get a

>reading of 0.012 ohms. Is this an indication of a buggered

>tweeter?

As others mentioned, yes. Provided that there is no chance of an external shorting path. Did you, for sure, disconnect one tweeter lead from the terminal block before the battery test Tom described, or before measuring its resistance with a low resistance, say 200 Ohms or less, full-scale meter? That would eliminate any possible outside shorting path. It would be worth checking again before hunting for a replacement. As in woodworking; measure twice, cut once!

Cheers,

[tysontom]

>Hi Tom

>Actually, that particular tweet was from a 2ax. See this

>thread:

>http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/dcbo...id=13818&page=2

>I have TWO "popped" ones! It was heartbreaking to

>"part out" a really nice pair of 2ax's purchased

>from CSP member George, but the popped tweeters left me with

>little choice. Good luck to you, Roy, John, anyone else

>working on the replacement tweeter issue!

>Kent

Kent,

Yes, I had that image saved as a "popped" AR-3 tweeter, but I failed to put the proper credit on the image! Thanks for letting me know; I will update the description. The AR-2ax (1-3/8-inch) tweeter is identical to the AR-3 tweeter except for the impedance.

Incidentally, that tweeter in that image was possibly a "popped" tweeter that had been pried open an additional amount. When one does actually break out of the gap, the movement of the dome is not as dramatic as that picture demonstrates. It is the pressure of the fiberglass pad under the dome, pushing against the suspension, that causes the break in the suspension. In most cases, the dome gets tilted to one side somewhat and the end result is increased distortion, buzzing noises or complete loss of output.

--Tom Tyson

[tysontom]

>>I checked the resistance at the aliuminum wires and I get

>a

>>reading of 0.012 ohms. Is this an indication of a

>buggered

>>tweeter?

>

>As others mentioned, yes. Provided that there is no chance of

>an external shorting path. Did you, for sure, disconnect one

>tweeter lead from the terminal block before the battery test

>Tom described, or before measuring its resistance with a low

>resistance, say 200 Ohms or less, full-scale meter? That would

>eliminate any possible outside shorting path. It would be

>worth checking again before hunting for a replacement. As in

>woodworking; measure twice, cut once!

>

>Cheers,

John makes an excellent point here: there could be a short on the backside of the tweeter terminal strip somewhere which would negate the "battery test." It is unlikely to be completely shorted, but it is certainly possible, especially since someone else had wired in different level controls! Disconnect one lead and then scrape the tweeter wires gently and either do a continuity test or use the battery test for sound output.

--Tom Tyson

[JKent]

>Incidentally, that tweeter in that image was possibly a

>"popped" tweeter that had been pried open an

>additional amount. When one does actually break out of the

>gap, the movement of the dome is not as dramatic as that

>picture demonstrates. It is the pressure of the fiberglass

>pad under the dome, pushing against the suspension, that

>causes the break in the suspension. In most cases, the dome

>gets tilted to one side somewhat and the end result is

>increased distortion, buzzing noises or complete loss of

>output.

Hi Tom

I don't think so. I bought the pair from (csp member) George, who had bought them from the original owner and knew their history. He had told me the tweets did not work and I "assumed" it was a pot issue. The speaker grilles were stapled on and appeared never to have been removed (in fact, I cracked the thin dried-out fiberboard trying to remove them). btw--BOTH tweets were equally popped!

Kent

want a couple of popped tweeters?

[tysontom]

>

>Hi Tom

>I don't think so. I bought the pair from (csp member) George,

>who had bought them from the original owner and knew their

>history. He had told me the tweets did not work and I

>"assumed" it was a pot issue. The speaker grilles

>were stapled on and appeared never to have been removed (in

>fact, I cracked the thin dried-out fiberboard trying to remove

>them). btw--BOTH tweets were equally popped!

>Kent

>want a couple of popped tweeters?

>

Kent,

I seem to keep backtracking! I have two or three such tweeters that haven't dislodged to the extent of your tweeters, so perhaps mine just haven't traveled to the end of the road of self-destruction. If the grills were on with the staples to the extent you describe, it is clear that for real the "popped" tweeters popped out further than I realized!

Nope, I'll pass on your kind offer. Have you thought of trying to somehow glue the domes back down in place? If the voice coils are still good, you might be able to replace those domes since the foam piece broke cleanly.

--Tom Tyson

[simark]

Ok gents, thanks for all the suggestions.

I ordered a tweeter from Larry at AR-Vintage. I was wondering how do you join the tweeter leads to the termminals or splice the leads together. I've tried solder, but this did not work. Right now one of the leads is barely making contact, if I breathe on it, it goes intermittent.

Thanks

Stan

[johnieo]

>I ordered a tweeter from Larry at AR-Vintage.

Stan:

You will receive an AB-Tech tweeter. Ken Kantor has been taking some measurements on this driver, and in a few days will be posting a suggested crossover change to make it sound much like the original.

>I was wondering

>how do you join the tweeter leads to the termminals or splice

>the leads together. I've tried solder, but this did not work.

>Right now one of the leads is barely making contact, if I

>breathe on it, it goes intermittent.

Your speaker has front-wired connections. The replacement will have back-wired push-connector tabs. You will need to drill or cut out a bit of the backbore rabbet in order to make room for each of the two tabs. 0.187" StayCon female connectors can be crimped to the ends of new wires coming from the X-O board to the tweeter tabs. The yellow and green wires must remain connected to the front three-wire terminal strip as they supply signal to the mid- you can leave the black wire also; it will no longer connect to anything once the old tweeter is removed.

If you replace your damaged tweeter with a viable original front-wired tweeter, you will need to splice its thin aluminum wires to copper wires. Several suggestions- including wrapping and dabbing with silver ink and crimping Al and Cu wires inside a small hollow push pin from a multipin connector have been made, but that does not look like your problem.

Looks like you have removed the potentiometers and replace them with L-Pads? If so, remember this size L-pad is rated at 15 W, whereas the original pots were rated at 25 W.

Cheers,