Need advice about packing and shipping AR-1 speakers

[Guest shogold]

I'm getting ready to offer my dad's AR-1s on ebay. I need the space & the cash.

I've read and reread Tom's instructions of how to package speakers properly but never having done this before I still have some questions. Would appreciate learning from your collective experience.

Bubble wrap - small bubbles or big ones or does it not matter?

What dimensions should I get for the inner and outer boxes?

How thick should the styrofoam between the two boxes be? I found some styrofoam at Home Depot but it's only 3/4" thick. Where do you get thicker foam?

As a last resort - do any shipping companies like Fedex or UPS do an adequate job of packing speakers?

Any other advice about packing and shipping these speakers appreciated. I really want to get this right. I hate to intrude with ebay selling questions, but you guys are the experts & I wouldn't trust anyone else's advice!!! Thanks in advance.

[ar_pro]

Packing those speakers for shipping is a huge challenge. With ebay's popularity, a number of packing & shipping professionals have sprung up, and you might consider using their services.

Alternatively, the winner of your auction might not even want those heavy AR boxes, preferring to ship the Altec drivers on their own.

No kidding, you'd probably make as much if you parted the AR-1s out, because that's what's going to happen, anyway. :-)

[johnieo]

>Bubble wrap - small bubbles or big ones or does it not

>matter?

I have not found any difference, but maybe others have?

>What dimensions should I get for the inner and outer boxes?

Personally, I have used 1.5-to-2 inches between speaker and first box and ditto for second.

>How thick should the styrofoam between the two boxes be? I

>found some styrofoam at Home Depot but it's only 3/4"

>thick. Where do you get thicker foam?

My personal recommendation is: NEVER use styrofoam. It is hard; when a speaker is dropped, it shows little forgiveness. I receive a pair of AR-11 with styrofoam contacting speaker fronts and the imprint of the midrange mesh was deeply visible, it needed to be bent back to its proper shape with we think, little damage. Bubble wrap works well. I have received speakers that were double boxed using rug padding; they arrived in superb condtiton. Often one can obtain scraps free from a carpet store.

For further information please search this forum for threads relating to packing and shipping. Tom Tyson had some comments regarding preventing the woofer cone from popping out when the cabinet was dropped. And they will be dropped! I watched as the driver delivering to my house pulled the corner of the second box from a shelf in the truck and let it drop to the floor -- I only heard the first one -- then suggested that he please not use the same method from truck bed to ground!

Cheers,

[Guest shogold]

Thanks! I know the foam can damage the speakers with direct contact, so I was planning to use them only in the outer box. Do you think that's still dangerous? Thanks for the suggestion of carpet remnants - that's certainly cheaper!

[johnieo]

Hi Susanna:

My advice is only insured for the price of a cup of coffee! However, foam packing between outer and inner box sounds reasonable. AR-1 and older spare parts are often purchased by Asian collectors. Old x-o parts we sold last year were shipped to an Asian firm's So. San Francisco address. One presumes they were bulk air shipped from there.

Good luck selling and shipping!

Cheers,

[dynaco_dan]

Hi there;

These two photos are of an AR speaker that I received from a seller with well over 1,000 transactions.

The AR cabinets are about the best example of sturdy construction there is.

These were not the first ones that seller packaged and shipped to a customer.

Package for the worst possible shipping problems and that is the best you can do.

Having a company like UPS pickup, package and ship might be your very safest and best way for liablity purposes.

If you are bound and determined to ship yourself, use foam, the same as you might use for a bed mattress or camping mattress.

Because of the speakers value even a foam lined wooden crate would not be out of line for me to suggest.

Bubblewrap alone would most certainly guarantee disaster.

At least 3" thick foam.

I would suggest a quality cardboard carton around the entire speaker first, with a layer of 3/8" or thicker plywood to protect the front at the very least.

Then a layer of the foam totally around that carton.

Then another substantial carton overlay over the foam and finally a layer of 2" or 3" sterifoam sheet or better quality.

Finally an outer of cardboard layer extremely well taped or banded and two sets of identification minimum on opposing sides.

My suggestions will cost the buyer some money but is nothing compared to a damaged speaker, unrestorable and badly damaged forever.

[dynaco_dan]

Hi again;

I believe Tom Tyson had one of his speakers crated by an organization for shipment to a show last year.

I do hope that Tom has some photos of the packaging.

I would not get into removing any drivers or grille cloth even, not for anyone!

If you try to remove the grille cloth, you may damage the tweeter which is worth mega bucks.

Other than an informal sound check do not remove any portion the speakers, not even one grille cloth.

[Guest shogold]

Vern,

Thanks for the cautionary tale photographs. Those are scary.

I would love to hand this whole project over to the UPS guys but I just don't trust them. See some of the horror stories over at audiokarma.com about shipping stereo components via UPS.

I did call the local mailboxes etc. to see what they would usually do with an item this size & weight. They said their standard procedure (which is the UPS recommendation) would be bubble-wrap and use 2 inches of peanuts inside a double-walled box. I think they figure, this will probably do it and on the odd chance it doesn't we'll insure it. I just don't want to take any kind of chances.

They did seem amenable to following my instructions (as long as I pay extra) so I will try to come up with "best practices" recommendation and bring it to them to follow. I just can't see myself managing to bubble-wrap a 50-pound speaker, never mind slide the whole thing into a cardboard box. How does ANYONE do that? I'd probably end up missing a toe or two.

Obviously this will get pricey but as you mentioned worth it in this case. Anyway, thanks again for the advice (& thanks to you too John) & hope your next speaker purchase goes better than the one in the photos!

Shoshanna

[dynaco_dan]

>Vern,

>Thanks for the cautionary tale photographs. Those are scary.

>

>I would love to hand this whole project over to the UPS guys

>but I just don't trust them. See some of the horror stories

>over at audiokarma.com about shipping stereo components via

>UPS.

>

>I did call the local mailboxes etc. to see what they would

>usually do with an item this size & weight.

They said

>their standard procedure (which is the UPS recommendation)

>would be bubble-wrap and use 2 inches of peanuts inside a

>double-walled box.

A speaker the weight of an AR-2 or larger is pretty good.

Peanuts are a joke in my opinion for speakers.

In my honest opinion you are asking for damage here.

If they mean a heavy walled carton, I mean two separate cartons with padding between.

I think they figure, this will probably do

>it and on the odd chance it doesn't we'll insure it.

I just

>don't want to take any kind of chances.

>

>They did seem amenable to following my instructions (as long

>as I pay extra) so I will try to come up with "best

>practices" recommendation and bring it to them to follow.

> I just can't see myself managing to bubble-wrap a 50-pound

>speaker, never mind slide the whole thing into a cardboard

>box.

Each cabinet should be double cartoned at the very least.

How does ANYONE do that? I'd probably end up missing a

>toe or two.

>

>Obviously this will get pricey but as you mentioned worth it

>in this case.

I did not make a note about the shipping cost to Asia but it is around $200.00 - 300.00 each, if not more, which the buyer is responsible for.

I would package them for the worst possible accident and that includes shipping only within the North America's.

Anyway, thanks again for the advice (&

>thanks to you too John) & hope your next speaker purchase

>goes better than the one in the photos!

>

>Shoshanna

Sorry Shoshanna, but I would risk UPS rather than you packing them.

At this point I would rather see what Tom Tyson has to show and say about his specially crated speaker experience.

[Guest shogold]

Thanks Vern,

I think you're right that I should let UPS pack these & save my toes, but I will use your advice to instruct them how to do it.

And thanks for the comment about international shipping. I had already figured I would only ship within USA as I am concerned about damage/cost with overseas shipping & it is not worth the extra stress in my opinion. From what you tell me that's the way to go.

Take Care

Shoshanna

[dynaco_dan]

>Thanks Vern,

>I think you're right that I should let UPS pack these &

>save my toes, but I will use your advice to instruct them how

>to do it.

>And thanks for the comment about international shipping. I

>had already figured I would only ship within USA as I am

>concerned about damage/cost with overseas shipping & it is

>not worth the extra stress in my opinion. From what you tell

>me that's the way to go.

>Take Care

>Shoshanna

Hi again;

You probably will obtain maximum dollars on your sale by a worldwide sale, rather than just N &/or S American sale for example.

Whether you sell to the next city to you, or Taiwan, you need to spend the same money on packaging to assure as best as possible that they will arrive intact.

If my two damaged speakers had been insured, I would only have received $9.99 in total, not the $120.00 S&H charge.

If you should list to continental USA only, you will maybe receive 1/2 the dollar value, if that.

If you are asked to part them out, by the winner only, there should be payment made first!

Then someone the buyer authorizes to do all of the parting.

Do not attempt to remove the grille cloth, even for the winner.

You can do a lot of damage in just a second of carelessness.

If you feel that you are going to use UPS for the international shipment for example, ask them for an estimate with your packaging request and if acceptable, have them pickup, pack and ship.

I would take some photos of the cabinets at each view and confirm with the driver the pictures.

Include one set with a sealed envelope with the packing slip.

Email or mail a set to the buyer and keep at least one set for your records.

Include serial numbers and model information.

You can also use the photos for your ebay listing.

Lot's of nice closeup's.

An informative write-up is a great point too.

Please, no driveway shot's, with the cabinets sitting on blacktop.

[Guest 1080i]

People have said that styrofoam is not good for padding speakers for shipment. I tend to agree, but AR thought otherwise.

When I purchased my AR-5 pair new in 1975, they were held inside the heavy cardboard box (not double boxed) with eight shaped styrofoam corner pieces only. Isn't this using hard styrofoam as packing/padding material which some say is a bad practice?? Using the foam on the corners sure cuts down on the amount of packing material needed. I still had the boxes, corner pieces, and cardboard grill cover until a few years ago when I decided I was "never moving again..." (ha ha) and wouldn't need them.

I think someone's suggestion of carpet padding is excellent.

[dynaco_dan]

>People have said that styrofoam is not good for padding

>speakers for shipment. I tend to agree, but AR thought

>otherwise.

>

>When I purchased my AR-5 pair new in 1975, they were held

>inside the heavy cardboard box (not double boxed) with eight

>shaped styrofoam corner pieces only. Isn't this using hard

>styrofoam as packing/padding material which some say is a bad

>practice?? Using the foam on the corners sure cuts down on the

>amount of packing material needed. I still had the boxes,

>corner pieces, and cardboard grill cover until a few years ago

>when I decided I was "never moving again..." (ha ha)

>and wouldn't need them.

>

>I think someone's suggestion of carpet padding is excellent.

>

Hi there;

A number of speaker companies used the 8 corner sterifoam pieces.

Amps, tuners and preamps were also packed in molded sterifoam.

Or one slab for the top and one for the bottom with in indent for the cabinet so it wouldn't shift around.

As well as the classic AR speakers were packed, wrapped in brown paper, thick top and bottom cardboard, a cardboard piece to protect the grille cloth area, and 4 multilayer folded corner edge uprights.

We used to have furnaces here that used a waxed type surface folded cardboard uprights, for shipping protection, I threw all but 3 away.

I wish Tom Tyson had some photos of his specially packaged speaker from a year or so ago.

My thought today for shipping an AR-1 speaker in particular, mainly because of it's great value, is 3 - 4" (preferred) foam lined plywood coffin type box with at least a cardboard grille area shield for protection.

The speaker must be cushioned not just packaged.

Actually just about any speaker is worth this effort, in my opinion.

There is a cost to this and the buyer would need to be prepared to pay for this service.

A $2,000.00+ speaker pair with $100.00 - $200.00 crating charge, not out of proportion, in my opinion, for wherever they will be shipped.

Across the city or the world.

I don't forsee any similar damage to a speaker packaged like this as I had with my AR-2's, and these were from the USA.

Forget bubblewrap, sterifoam, peanuts, and flimsy cardboard.

I believe that when classic AR shipped to their dealers, there would have been many pairs and perhaps the trucking companies hired gentle drivers and swampers back then.

Today if you ship a pair of speakers, they may sit in opposite sides of a truck under steel bars or who knows what.

They may even lay them down face up, or down, irregardless as to up signs or even fragile stickers.

Months ago, I was emailed a bunch of photos of ships with stacked containers on board, well some were on board, some were in the ocean.

Scary.

There could have been a container there with some AR-1's aboard.

[johnieo]

>When I purchased my AR-5 pair new in 1975, they were held

>inside the heavy cardboard box (not double boxed) with eight

>shaped styrofoam corner pieces only. Isn't this using hard

>styrofoam as packing/padding material which some say is a bad

>practice??

No.

Styrofoam corner cubes are a different animal. They could be and are used quite efficiently to box large heavy speakers. I believe they are fabricated from a somewhat stronger springier form of plastic than used in wall insulation.

My concern is the use of 2-inch thick sheets of styrofoam insulation board next to the entire speaker surface. For example, the AR-11 midrange mesh projects beyond the speaker cabinet front (only the urethane foam grille is in front of it! Putting a 14x25-in-sq sheet of hard foam in front of the unit is a disaster waiting to happen. I prefer 2 inches of bubble wrap over the speaker (with a sheet of thin plywood in front of the woofer) then build a cardboard box around that. Then two more inches of bubble wrap (or styrofoam board) and push snuggly into a heavy outer box. This provides a cushion as well as protection. Bubble wrap or carpet padding work very well. Slaming a speaker front directly against hard styrofoam board is akin to slapping one's hand against water. Not much of a cushion.

Cheers,

[Guest 1080i]

>When I purchased my AR-5 pair new in 1975, they were held

>inside the heavy cardboard box (not double boxed) with eight

>shaped styrofoam corner pieces only. Isn't this using hard

>styrofoam as packing/padding material which some say is a bad

>practice??

>>No.

>>Styrofoam corner cubes are a different animal. They could be and are used quite efficiently to box large heavy speakers. I believe they are fabricated from a somewhat stronger springier form of plastic than used in wall insulation.<<

Understood, but in this case, the corner pieces from my ARs were plain old hard styrofoam, just like wall insulation to my eyes and fingers, and with the same properties. Nothing fancy or high tech. Or springy. The only packing material between the cabinet and the box in this case was still hard styrofoam, no matter what the shape was. That's all I was saying. I'm not defending or advocating any particular packing method. Just describing it for those historically interested because it's fresh in my memory and went to the recycling dumpster fairly recently. Few people are as stupid as me to save large empty shipping boxes for 30 years... Thanks.

[dynaco_dan]

Back again;

After giving more thought to the AR-1 packaging, I do have this suggestion.

As shipped, the AR-3A's were in a large carton, with a thick top and bottom piece of cardboard, a face cardboard and four corner edge uprights.

If your speakers had such a strongly designed carton arrangement, then I would suggest another even larger carton, with equal tops, bottoms and uprights.

Bouble boxing, if you will.

This would give you a larger shipping package but I am certain, a much more secure shipment as well.

You cannot expect thin cardboard to survive shipments.

[dynaco_dan]

>>When I purchased my AR-5 pair new in 1975, they were

>held

>>inside the heavy cardboard box (not double boxed) with

>eight

>>shaped styrofoam corner pieces only. Isn't this using

>hard

>>styrofoam as packing/padding material which some say is a

>bad

>>practice??

>

>No.

>

>Styrofoam corner cubes are a different animal. They could be

>and are used quite efficiently to box large heavy speakers. I

>believe they are fabricated from a somewhat stronger springier

>form of plastic than used in wall insulation.

>

.

.

>My concern is the use of 2-inch thick sheets of styrofoam

>insulation board next to the entire speaker surface. For

>example, the AR-11 midrange mesh projects beyond the speaker

>cabinet front (only the urethane foam grille is in front of

>it! Putting a 14x25-in-sq sheet of hard foam in front of the

>unit is a disaster waiting to happen.

.

.

.

My packaging suggestion can only be used for an AR-1/AR-2/AR-3/AR-4 series etc, style enclosure, where the drivers are front mounted but are not projecting beyond the cabinet frame.

The AR-11 and LST and others require extra special consideration in their special packaging requirements.

It certainly does not hurt to have many ideas, rather that just one, in how to safely ship our toys.

Only when a shipment goes awry, can we learn from others, how not to pack speakers.

.

.

.

I prefer 2 inches of

>bubble wrap over the speaker (with a sheet of thin plywood in

>front of the woofer) then build a cardboard box around that.

>Then two more inches of bubble wrap (or styrofoam board) and

>push snuggly into a heavy outer box. This provides a cushion

>as well as protection. Bubble wrap or carpet padding work very

>well. Slaming a speaker front directly against hard styrofoam

>board is akin to slapping one's hand against water. Not much

>of a cushion.

>

>Cheers,

>

[JKent]

here's an interesting packing method. Used as shown for electronics, not speakers. Probably has its advantages, but where is the cushion? (also--I don't think you can re-use those cans of foam. Could get expensive)

http://gssound.com/pack

btw--the tech I use for radio repairs says he has to remind people to NEVER put ridgid styrofoam in contact with equipment without first wrapping the equipment in plastic. That stiff styrofoam will scratch expensive faceplates.

Kent

[dynaco_dan]

>here's an interesting packing method. Used as shown for

>electronics, not speakers. Probably has its advantages, but

>where is the cushion? (also--I don't think you can re-use

>those cans of foam. Could get expensive)

>http://gssound.com/pack

>

>btw--the tech I use for radio repairs says he has to remind

>people to NEVER put ridgid styrofoam in contact with equipment

>without first wrapping the equipment in plastic. That stiff

>styrofoam will scratch expensive faceplates.

>Kent

>

Hi Kent;

It is interesting to see what someone will do to ship a fine piece of electronics.

I would have liked to have seen a soft foam layer around the perimeter of the piece first.

Another suggestion, do not ship Dynaco tweeters with sterifoam or peanuts without a bag or wrapping first.

The wire mesh turns the sterifoam into dust and it sticks to the dome and destroys them.

Never package 2 clamshell AR-2 tweeter arrays with bubblewrap between them, it destroys the tweeters as they are fastened together.

I lost 4 single tweeters just that way last year from one seller in one shipment.

It is best to fasten single clamshell units to either real thick cardboard, plywood or similar, using no bubblewrap inside the clamshell.

If bubblewrap is used, it sticks to the surround compound and also presses on the cones, causing near disaster, depending on the size of the bubbles.

[Guest shogold]

Thanks all for your advice and suggestions. The auctions are up and running, and I've incorporated everyone's input into my directions to the UPS store in my area. I'm not going to even try to roll these things in bubble wrap on my own. Just spoke to the manager today, he seems experienced and willing to follow my instructions. If it works out I will let you know.

I saw a similar page on that gssound website that shows how to pack speakers:

http://gssound.com/speakerpack

But that one only shows single boxing.

I think the very heavy weight/size ratio makes these vintage speakers different for shipping than the more modern ones. I find that packaging services are very quick to say "Oh yes, we ship speakers all the time" but when you say "50 pounds each" they seem VERY surprised.

Thanks again!

[dynaco_dan]

Hi there;

Good luck with the auction.

I feel strongly about the damage caused by poor packaging and even moreso by rough handling by the transport companies.

The AR-1, for a focus on a very rare and valuable speaker system.

The heart of this speaker is it's tweeter, which is not all that great, as I understand it.

If you were to obtain $2,500.00 US for the pair, the tweeters would be about $2,200.00 of that income.

If one was to drop a screwdriver into one tweeter, by accident, there goes about $1,100.00.

If only a single layered cardboard box was used and something punctured the carton and tweeter cone, even just slightly, there goes a minmum of $1,100.00.

If someone was to successfully remove and package the tweeters in one package and ship them separate from the cabinets, with the woofers still enclosed and they got lost.

Well there goes $2,200.00 or more.

The cabinets with the woofers only in them probably wouldn't fetch $200.00 - $400.00 for the pair.