AR-91, what is a reasonable price?

[Guest Sweden]

I have the opportunity to buy a pair of AR-91 for about 280$. Is that a reasonable price. The woofers has been refoamed and all the original stuff seems to be there. The cabinet is in good condition. I have not had the possibility to listen to them before I buy.

What can you say about AR-91?

Thanks

[Guest Nigel]

About 2½ years ago, I paid $300 for a pair of AR91.5, the cabinets are vinyl veener (vs wood) and they don't have the top corners clipped. My ex-wife has the AR91 set.......

IMHO the AR91 (and 91.5) are the next best thing to an AR9, I prefer them to the AR90. This is just my opinion though.

A powerful amplifier that handles low impedance well is critical.

[Guest Brian_D]

I wouldn't pay more than $300 for them... You can get 9's that need only refoaming for around $400, and that's a superior speaker if you have the space to spare.

$280 sounds very good for a "like new" speaker. (refoamed) The cost of replacement drivers for this line for a pair would certainly exceed that figure.

-Brian

[Guest Sweden]

Thanks for your input Brian.

Where I live (Sweden), vintage AR don't come around that much, esp. not 9's.

I would gladly like to have a pair of those, but my wife wouldn't. She thinks that they are to big. I therefor think that the AR-91 is a good compromise. But if a pair of 9s for a reasonable proce would come out to the market, I would consider buying them.

/Rickard

[Guest Sweden]

I also thank you Nigel for your input.

I have a Luxman A-312, integrated amplifier. It's a simple amplifier, but it's built to drive heavy speakers at low impedance.

But since this is only a 2 channel speaker, I'm looking at buying a 5.1 or a 7.1 receiver (perhaps a NAD or a Denon).

Then I will use the AR-91 (if I get to buy them) and the AR-6 I already have.

Rickard

[Guest Brian_D]

I've never played a set of 91's for any length of time, but considering the similarity of drivers/arrangement in the upper reigon, and the use of that 12" woofer everyone loves so much, I can't say that this wouldn't be a great comprimise when space is an issue.

Remember, though: lots of power!

[Guest Nigel]

>I also thank you Nigel for your input.

>

>I have a Luxman A-312, integrated amplifier. It's a simple

>amplifier, but it's built to drive heavy speakers at low

>impedance.

>

>But since this is only a 2 channel speaker, I'm looking at

>buying a 5.1 or a 7.1 receiver (perhaps a NAD or a Denon).

>

>Then I will use the AR-91 (if I get to buy them) and the AR-6

>I already have.

>

Hi Rickard

Neither NAD or Denon HT receivers are up to driving AR91 speakers properly. They just do not have the power supply to do it. I suggest you keep your Luxman to drive the 91 speakers...

[Steve F]

The AR-91 and AR-92 were introduced just after the AR-90, which came out in 1979. These speakers, along with the original AR-9 from 1978, comprised the original "Vertical" series of floorstanding speakers. When the 91 was introduced, AR’s introductory literature said something along the lines of, "We expect it to become the standard of comparison for speakers of its size and type." It was obvious that AR was hoping for another 12" 3-way standard-bearer in the tradition of the 3 and 3a.

The 91 never did attain the 3-3a level of notoriety, but, along with the 92 and 90, it solidified AR’s new comeback reputation that had been established by the 9. It was an excellent speaker, and quite clearly, the best overall performer of the Vertical Series when price and size were factored in.

I bought my 91’s in July 1980, driving them quite nicely with a Kenwood KA-8100 integrated amplifier. The Kenwood was a twin-transformer, solidly-built unit, conservatively rated at 105/ch into 4 ohms. It never broke a sweat or skipped a beat all the time I had my 91’s. It was an excellent combination.

The 91 had tough shoes to fill, since they replaced my long-standing 2ax’s, speakers that I had become quite accustomed to and were always quite satisfying to me. However, the 91 was a tremendous performer—smooth, deep, natural—in the very best tradition of AR 12-inch 3-ways of the past. I can remember playing the Telarc recording of "Pictures at an Exhibition" (the LP, not the CD!), and having my upstairs neighbor in my apartment building stomp quite unpleasantly on his floor during the climatic sections of the piece!

A few months later, I ran across a pair of rare, mint-condition LST-2’s at a stereo store that was one of my accounts. (I was a factory-direct salesperson for Panasonic at the time). Of course, I bought them on the spot, I took them home and had both the 91’s and LST-2’s connected for quite some time, performing delightfully enjoyable A-B’s in my living room. Although the 91’s were more "accurate" and had less of that slightly "woody" coloration that characterized the 3a-5 generation 1 1/2" dome midrange, I came to actually prefer the LST-2’s overall—partly because of their wide, spacious sound (my listening room was wider than it was deep, so the LST-2’s angled panels were particularly well-suited to my acoustic environment), and partly because of my fascination with their relative rarity.

The LST-2’s less overwhelming bass response was actually an advantage, at least insofar as my relationship with my neighbors was concerned. I gave the 91’s to my Dad, where I was able to go over and listen to them whenever I wanted. (Sort of like giving away a beloved family dog to a good home, but retaining frequent visitation rights.) The 91’s replaced my Dad’s 2ax’s, and seeing as he was as much of an audiophile as I was (and my Mom was much more tolerant of high playback levels than were my neighbors), it was a perfect fit.

The 91 may not get the attention and adulation 24 years after the fact the way the 9 and 90 still do, but it was a solid performer in the very best tradition of great AR speakers.

Steve F

[Guest Sweden]

Hi Nigel,

that was interesting to hear. Do you have any recommendations regarding a 5.1 or 7.1 receiver for the AR-91 + AR-6 combination? (I haven't a center yet, but that will be the very last thing I buy)

One reason for buying a new receiver/amplifier is that we have some problems with the Luxman-amplifier. The sound is sometimes disappearing, a common defect with the volume-output that this model had. I think it's oxidation.

Perhaps there aren't any good 5.1 or 7.1:s around?

By the way, I have now agreed with the seller and I will pick them up next weekend.

Thanks

Rickard

[Guest Sweden]

Thanks for your exhaustive explanation. I think that you summarizes it in two sentences:

"prize and size ..."

"smooth, deep, natural ....."

The above is the main 2 reasons why I even consider buying the speakers. Especially the sound aspect. The speakers of today can't compete with the sound of the vintage speakers when considering prize and size. I think that the sound aspect started to deteriate already during the 80s when Jamo and such came along with a clear focus on playing loud. Today we have Cervin wega. Sure there are speakers around with the same capas as AR-91, but they cost from 1000$ and up (almost always the latter).

Thanks

Rickard

[Guest Nigel]

Hi Rickard;

I would suggest purchasing a HT receiver with pre-out connections for attaching a seperate amplifier. That is what we have, it is currently a Marantz unit, with a very weak amp section, but the price was right. The main speakers are AR9 each driven in vertical bi-amp mode with the amplifier section of an Onkyo TX8500 receiver (ca 1977), and the surrounds are AR91.5 with the pair driven by an Adcom GFA 545 II. It is okay for the smaller room that the system is in.

In my opinion, the Onkyo HT receivers are the best mid priced units. The TX-SR701 and the TX-NR801 in particular.

We are planning on replacing the Marantz with a NR801 in the not too distant future.

[Guest Sweden]

OK, so I bought and collected the speakers yesterday and a very brief soundcheck shows that the speakers work fine (puh!). I'm going to London today so I don't have time to test them more thorougly. I can also conclude that my simple Luxman seems to be able to drive the speakers. The cabinets and grills are in excellent condition. Some minor scratches here and there, but they are 20+ or so.

The final price was about 265$.

cheers

Rickard

[Guest Brian_D]

Good price, and congratulations!

A note about amplifier size...

Depending on the type of music you listen to, and the size of your room, your amplifier may indeed be capable of driving these speakers to a level that you are happy with.

When I had my 9's upstairs in my (12 x 9) living room, they were attached to a rather anemic Aiwa HT receiver which only provided 100 watts to that 4-ohm load and it sounded fine, even at great volumes. For the room, that was plenty. I did notice some shortcomings in clarity and low-bass extention in some music, and I upgraded to a very nice AudioControl Amp1. Much more power, and it cleaned it up, but the amplifier was capable of much more than I could stand in the way of volume.

Now that the speakers are in the basement (or the bass-ment as I call it) neither of those amps would come close to the levels I like while maintaining the quality I like. I now have the 9's hooked to a Mackie M800, 250 watts/channel at 4 ohms. This amp is plenty for the room. and the wattage wasn't much of an increase.

Another comment about HT receivers. Most of these receivers are capable of 100 watts or more while driving 5 or 6 channels. The power supply needed for that kind of output is pretty large. As long as the main outputs are designed to fully utilize the available power from that supply when running in stereo, an HT receiver just might be the ticket. (Like my Teac reference receiver, 80 watts x 5 or 150 watts x 2)

Enjoy your loudspeakers!

[Guest Sweden]

Hi Nigel (and the other ones in this thread).

I have now spent yesterday evening connecting the speakers via better (thicker) cables and have done a more thorough soundcheck and I'm still impressed with the sound. I have some thoughts though:

- The bass is not as pronounced as I guessed that it would be (but it is of course way better than my AR-6's).

- The sound is not as deep as I would like it to be. We haven't started adjusting the equalizer though (we have an equalizer connected to our amplifier). WHat my wife thinks is that the midrange is a bit to pronounced.

- When adjusting the speaker-equalizer in the back of the speakers, the switch on the right side gives a considerable change in sound. When switching it to the right, we get a bit more deeper and clearer sound. For the other switch, I don't here a considerable change. Can you please describe what your speaker sounds like when you change the left switch? Could it be that this doesn't work properly?

A remark, I have a very small room right now, it's only 4*4 m. I have bought these speakers for my coming apartment/house where I aiming to get a considerable larger living-room (I live in a student-department right now, my wife is attending med-school).

Many thanks and a happy easter

Rickard

[Guest Nigel]

Hi Rickard;

>- The bass is not as pronounced as I guessed that it would be

>(but it is of course way better than my AR-6's).

>- The sound is not as deep as I would like it to be. We

>haven't started adjusting the equalizer though (we have an

>equalizer connected to our amplifier). What my wife thinks is

>that the midrange is a bit to pronounced.

The above symptom are consistent with insufficient amplifier. Several years ago, I discovered that a more powerful amplifier is more critical for low level (quiet) listening than for loud. This may sound contrary to logic. My theory is that when listening at a lower level you are better able to pick out the fine nuances, while at loud levels the details get overwhelmed by the shear volume.

An Adcom 545, 545 II, or 5400 are quite good for driving larger classic AR speakers in smaller rooms. In larger rooms the 555, 555 II or 5500 is a better match.

>- When adjusting the speaker-equalizer in the back of the

>speakers, the switch on the right side gives a considerable

>change in sound. When switching it to the right, we get a bit

>more deeper and clearer sound. For the other switch, I don't

>here a considerable change. Can you please describe what your

>speaker sounds like when you change the left switch? Could it

>be that this doesn't work properly?

AR91.5 don't have these, part of the cost reduction. If I recall correctly, one switch decreases the level of the tweeter and the other the midrange. There is a circuit diagram elsewhere on this site.

[Guest Sweden]

Hi Nigel,

thanks for your answers. They are in line with what my wife and I thought could be the case. I also think that could be the amplifiers capability that prevents us to hear a significant difference when adjusting the mid-range switch.

We have also noticed another sound-related problem. When playing music containing high frequencies, the speakers can't hold the tone. Instead of a crystal clear tone, it is a crackling, shattered tone. The good thing is that the phenomenon is evident on both the AR-6s and the AR-91s during the same part of the songs in questions, so I guess that it is the amplifier causing this? I truly hope that vintage speakers are able to carry high frequencies.

Thanks

Rickard

[Guest Bret]

>The good thing is that the phenomenon is evident on both the AR-6s and the AR-91s during the same part of the songs in questions, so I guess that it is the amplifier causing this? <

Can you borrow a friend's CD deck and see if the problem is still there?

Bret

[Guest Sweden]

>>The good thing is that the phenomenon is evident on both the

>AR-6s and the AR-91s during the same part of the songs in

>questions, so I guess that it is the amplifier causing this?

><

>

>Can you borrow a friend's CD deck and see if the problem is

>still there?

Hi Bret, I have an old CD from -86 (Fisher Studio-Standard) and a semi-new dvd from 2002 (Pioneer 343) an on both equipments the problems are there.

By the way (to all), I have spent some time on the mid-range equalizer on the speakers and there is a difference in the sound when changing the switch so basically, the only problem now is that none of the 4 speakers are able to carry a high tune. The amplifier that we need must have a "signal bypass" so that we can connect our equalizer to it. From what I understand, not that many amplifiers have that connection-opportunity today.

I must say that I really appreciate having someone to discuss these things with! There are a lot of knowledge here when it comes to AR speakers.

thanks

Rickard

>

>Bret

[Steve F]

Regarding the low bass performance of your AR-91's:

Room dimensions often play a significant role in determining the amount of uniform, smooth bass response that is delivered into the listening environment. You mentioned that your room is 4m by 4m (13.2 ft. x 13.2 ft.). Unfortunately, these dimensions are not conducive to uniform, deep bass propagation. Every room has what’s known as "standing waves"—resonances that correspond to the dimension of the room.

Ideally, it’s best to have each room dimension be mathematically unrelated to the other dimensions, i.e., no whole number factors, no even multiples, etc. In other words, the ratio of L x W x H of a room should not be 2 x 1 x 2, or 3 x 1 x 1, etc. The worst situation of all is to have three identical dimensions (a cube) but two identical dimensions, such as your 4m x 4m room, is almost as bad. The length and width of your room both correspond to a bass frequency and will tend to exaggerate (or cancel, depending on your listening position relationship to the speakers) the bass in that region.

Bear in mind this formula: You can determine the equivalent frequency of a particular room dimension by dividing 1130 by the dimension (in feet). So if you take 1130 and divide by 13.2 feet, you get 85.6Hz. (Or, in meters, take 342 and divide by 4m.) That is the frequency around which your room will tend to exaggerate the bass resonances. Both the length and width of your room are the same, so you’ll be apt to get a lot of reinforcement in that upper-80’s Hz region. That is the upper bass area, a full octave above low bass, so it’s apparent that your listening room is not helping matters with regard to low bass performance in your listening environment.

There have been a lot of articles written over the years about room resonances, standing waves, "ideal" dimensional ratios, etc. Now you can see how it’s best to have mathematically unrelated room dimensions, as this will tend to spread out and randomize the bass reinforcement/cancellation issues as they relate to room size. I suggest you do a little research on it, and you’ll gain a much better understanding than this brief overview has given you.

Good amplification, clean source material, good interconnects (if you believe in that sort of thing), etc., all help improve the sound of your system. But all are essentially powerless to overcome a really difficult listening room.

Steve F.

[Guest Bret]

Rickard,

What's a high tone? Give us an example of something that crackles. Triangle? Upper piano? Voice? Does it start cleanly and then crackle or just start crackling? At any volume?

It is entirely possible to have a "blown" tweeter or midrange that still makes noise.

I assume you've swapped sides with the speakers and it happens on all your speakers?

Bret

[Guest Sweden]

Bret,

when we have notice the problem, it has been (what we think) a synthesized sound. For example a violin. It mostly occurs when there are several "instruments" playing at the higher frequencies at the same time (when it gets somewhat an overwhelming sound). And it's "on top" of the sound where we here the scratchy sound, like it can't carry the last bit. When it happens, the "high tone/pure tone" is basically lost directly and it sounds almost like playing a scratchy vinyl (or a blown tweeter for that sake). What also can happen, is that the sound disappears.

We have switched speakers and channels. I can plug in 2 pair of speakers. All speakers sounds the exact same way, so either all 4 tweeters are blown or it is the amplifier that doesn't send out a good signal.

This morning, when I was investigating which instruments causing the sound-problem, I was not able to reproduce the sound-problem. This on a record and a song that consistently has had the same sound-problem all the time. Then I let the amplifier run for a while playing that record and after 30-40 minutes, the problem is back. So when the amplifier is "cold" everything seems OK, but when it get's "warm" the problem is occuring. I guess that it is a circuit or resistance or something like that in the amplifier that is starting to deteriorate?

I hope I have been clear, it's hard to explain in technical terms on another language.

Thanks

Rickard

[Guest Sweden]

Hi Steve,

thanks for a very clear explanation (I will certainly look this up on the net). My wife agrees 100% with your description. We have always had "poor" listening rooms and she has always been adjusting the midrange section of the stereo-equalizer downwards to compensate that.

But I wan't to say that we are pleased with the bass-performance. It's not a big issue. Overall, we think that the AR-91 is superb and as soon as we get a better amplifier and a better room, it will give better justice to the speakers. Then we expect to get that little extra bass from the speakers.

Thanks

Rickard

[ar_pro]

It's almost certainly a problem with your amplifier, but you should eliminate each possibilty first. Switch your speakerrs off, and using a pair of dependable headphones, connect them directly to your CD player, and listen for the problem. If the CD player sounds good, repeat the procedure with your amplifier when it's *cold*. If it's still good, just keep listening until the amp warms up, and you should become aware of the distortion as it appears.

[Guest Bret]

>All speakers sounds the exact same way, so either all 4 tweeters are blown or it is the amplifier that doesn't send out a good signal.<

It is hard to diagnose anything without being there and sometimes it is hard to diagnose even when you are there, but this definitely sounds like an electronics problem.

Can you borrow another receiver or amplifier and "test" this theory? Might a friend let you bring your speakers over for a test-listen?

As I say, I think it is almost a metaphysical certainty that this is your amplifier causing the problem, but better to test than guess.

Bret

[Guest Sweden]

Hi Bret,

I agree. I am currently looking at a new amplifier (what you americans call HT) since we have had some sound-issues with the present one since a long time (the volume output).

I will get back to this thread as soon as I have either borrowed someones amplifier or purchased a new and let you know if the issue is gone.

thanks all on this thread, with your help I think that we have pinpointed all my questions:

1. Not as pronounced bass-performance -> probably the room and the amplifier. With some adjustments to the stereo-equalizer, the bass is better though than during the first try-out.

2. Equalizers on back of the speaker, the midrange doesn't seem to give a significant improvement -> I tested by using another CD and here I could hear a significant difference so I guess it was the CD-recording on the first one that fooled me?

3. Crackling sound -> Most probably the amplifier since it occurs on all speakers during the same song/part of song.

Now it's time to find a HT-receiver that fits our needs. Important requirements:

- Powerful (ampère)

- HT (5.1 or 7.1)

- Possibility to connect the equalizer (many Ht's doesn't have this capability)

- Good overall sound (of course) with an emphasize of sounding good when playing music

- Nice design (yes, I also want it to look good)

Thanks

Rickard