And my AR-3a tweeter settings are...

[genek]

...On the decrease side of the white dots. Surprised the hell out of me after reading what everyone else is doing with theirs.

During my first tests using classical music I ended up with mids and highs at full increase, but when I put on some contemporary stuff, the highs started sizzling holes in my eardrums. Turning down the treble control on my amp brought the sizzle down but dulled the vocal regions of the midrange as well, and after some fiddling the optimum setting turned out to be mids at full increase and highs about 45 degrees on the decrease side of the white dot, amp controls flat for contemporary music and treble turned up to about two o'clock for classical.

Anybody got any idea what Edgar Villchur was listening to when he decided that recording engineers were boosting highs excessively and AR speakers needed controls that mostly attenuated them? Can't be what I was listening to, these recordings are too new.

[onplane]

...On the decrease side of the white dots. Surprised the hell out of me after reading what everyone else is doing with theirs.

During my first tests using classical music I ended up with mids and highs at full increase, but when I put on some contemporary stuff, the highs started sizzling holes in my eardrums. Turning down the treble control on my amp brought the sizzle down but dulled the vocal regions of the midrange as well, and after some fiddling the optimum setting turned out to be mids at full increase and highs about 45 degrees on the decrease side of the white dot, amp controls flat for contemporary music and treble turned up to about two o'clock for classical.

Anybody got any idea what Edgar Villchur was listening to when he decided that recording engineers were boosting highs excessively and AR speakers needed controls that mostly attenuated them? Can't be what I was listening to, these recordings are too new.

That emphasis on high frequencies was an observation made on the record companies at that time. So, it's primarily a source issue.

We'd expect to get a flat response from modern digital playback devices, but ... but you never know how the sound engineers are balancing the sound on any one CD. There is a fair amount of variability in sound balance from CD to CD.

Someday try the test below:

There is so little music in those higher frequencies and most of us old f**ts can't hear it anyhow. If you've never done the toilet paper tweeter test (TPTT) on your 3-ways (AR-3, AR-3a, AR-2ax, AR-5, etc), you are in for a treat.

Put on your favorite music and get a roll of tp. Now, place one end of the open core over the tweeter (center the tweeter as best you can). Then put your ear up to the other end. (The soft fibers of the tp will help absorb some of the unwanted frequencies.)

What you hear is the tweeter and it's simply amazing how little sound it actually produces!

Then move the core to the mid-driver and it's just about overwhelming how much sound it produces.

Naturally, it's not as simple as that. Both drivers should be capable of putting out equal level of spl. It's just that the distribution of frequencies in music greatly favors mid-range over tweeters.

What I found is that the tweeters in my AR-3a's are way, way behind my newer TWS-610's. So I totally by-passed the tweeter pots to get as much sound out of them as I could and ... they are still way behind the output of the more modern speakers.

In addition to by-passing, I also bi-amp so that I can more easily balance the resulting sound on changes in both source and CD.

Hope this helps ...

Regards,

Jerry

[genek]

That emphasis on high frequencies was an observation made on the record companies at that time. So, it's primarily a source issue.

We'd expect to get a flat response from modern digital playback devices, but ... but you never know how the sound engineers are balancing the sound on any one CD. There is a fair amount of variability in sound balance from CD to CD.

Someday try the test below:

Been there, done that, the TP roll test (actually, I use paper towel rolls so I don't have to bend this aging back down so much, I should probably just check eBay for a stethescope) has been my 3-way tweeter test tool for years. In the case of these speakers, it tells me that one tweet is going like gangbusters while the other is shattering just a tad on sibilants, so I think it may not be long for this world.

I checked the CDs I was listening to, and they're all "ADDs," so I'm thinking that they were probably made from masters intended for LP and not tone-corrected when transferred to digital. Most of my contemporary (i.e., not classical) music is actually quite old, dating from the 40's - 80's. I may have to go out and look for something new that's all digital if I ever want to hear a "modern" recording through these speakers.

[genek]

What I found is that the tweeters in my AR-3a's are way, way behind my newer TWS-610's. So I totally by-passed the tweeter pots to get as much sound out of them as I could and ... they are still way behind the output of the more modern speakers.

This brings up an interesting question. The 3a's frequency balance originally represented what Villchur and his crew believed was a "flat" and "natural" sound. The TSW series was after all of them were gone (although Ken Kantor left the year before they came out, so he may have had some hand in their design). So if the 3a's HFs are "way, way behind" those of the TSWs, is that because 3a tweeters, caps, etc., are all aging and their performance has degraded from their original specs, or because AR under its new management altered the design goals to satisfy the market preferences of the time? Obviously, for us individual owners today it's not a huge issue, because we'll select the sound we prefer, but it would be interesting to know what the old gang thought of AR's "more modern speakers." Did Villchur and the pre-Teledyne team think that AR speakers needed to be different because modern recording techniques got over the issues of their time, or that Teledyne and its successors turned AR speakers into shrill, lowest common denominator-chasers after they left?

[RoyC]

So if the 3a's HFs are "way, way behind" those of the TSWs, is that because 3a tweeters, caps, etc., are all aging and their performance has degraded from their original specs, or because AR under its new management altered the design goals to satisfy the market preferences of the time?

In the case of the 3/4" AR-3a tweeter (4 ohm) and AR-2ax/AR-5 tweeter (8 ohm), today's difference probably has more to do with degradation of the original tweeters' foam damping material and suspension. Beginning with the next generation AR-11/10pi, AR tweeters had more output, requiring the use of a parallel inductor across them.

Gene, Although many prefer both controls set to full increase, I have never known anyone to prefer the AR-3a mid level controls turned all the way up *while turning down the original tweeter*. That is not typical of the AR-3a in any way. Even the original dot settings suggest higher output is necessary for the tweeter, as its starting point is closer to the white dot. I would question your tweeter with the excessive output more than the other...and start by double checking my crossover wiring accordingly.

Roy

[genek]

In the case of the 3/4" AR-3a tweeter (4 ohm) and AR-2ax/AR-5 tweeter (8 ohm), today's difference probably has more to do with degradation of the original tweeters' foam damping material and suspension. Beginning with the next generation AR-11/10pi, AR tweeters had more output, requiring the use of a parallel inductor across them.

Gene, Although many prefer both controls set to full increase, I have never known anyone to prefer the AR-3a mid level controls turned all the way up *while turning down the original tweeter*. That is not typical of the AR-3a in any way. Even the original dot settings suggest higher output is necessary for the tweeter, as its starting point is closer to the white dot. I would question your tweeter with the excessive output more than the other...and start by double checking my crossover wiring accordingly.

Roy

Did that. Also tried swapping the tweeters between the boxes and it's definitely the tweeters. What I have not done is try some totally modern, i.e., "DDD" recordings of contemporary music, because in checking my mostly classical CDs, it turns out I don't have any at all. The conclusion I arrived at is that: (1) the cheapie CD player I was using runs "hot," since the sound from my LPs doesn't have nearly the same level of HFs, and (2) the "lower output" tweeter is the one that is failing (it's an original 1960's 4600-1 unit while the "higher output" tweeter is a 1200013-1 replacement date stamped 1985). It's also possible that I'm turning the mids up higher because of the lower output from a failing tweeter, though it's not as if they have all that much "higher" to go. Also, don't forget that in addition to turning down the HF speaker pot I've turned the amplifier's treble control up, so I think what I'm really doing is reshaping the HF curve rather than raising or lowering the overall HF levels.

I've started scouting for another 3a tweeter, and am also going to give one of those PE clearance units that Carl has a trial and see what happens when the 4600-1 comes out. Stay tuned.

Edit: Just to see what would happen, I switched amp to mono, turned balance control all the way over to cut out the speaker with the questionable tweeter and played a few different LPs. Both controls right on the white dots and tone controls flat. I'd say that pretty much nails the older 4600-1 tweeter as the root of the situation.

[RoyC]

I've started scouting for another 3a tweeter, and am also going to give one of those PE clearance units that Carl has a trial and see what happens when the 4600-1 comes out. Stay tuned.

Edit: Just to see what would happen, I switched amp to mono, turned balance control all the way over to cut out the speaker with the questionable tweeter and played a few different LPs. Both controls right on the white dots and tone controls flat. I'd say that pretty much nails the older 4600-1 tweeter as the root of the situation.

It makes sense to me now..thanks...

I'm planning to experiment with some different tweeters in upcoming 3a restorations myself. Keep us posted.

Roy