klh 4s vs klh 5s vs klh 6 Whats the difference? which is better/best?

[bjornklh]

ok so first off love klh stuff, always have

really some of the best stuff ever..

hooked.

but to the point

I have a set of klh 5s and they are probably the most dissapointing set of klh's that i have

i love my 17s, best speaker i have to a degree

but these 5s sound really soggy and bad, they have good bass, but a lot of just noise, really unclear sound. im thinking this is the capacitors in the crossover and surrounds.

how do the model 6's compare to the model 5s? and im talking about the model fives with 5 drivers, not the old old ones.

im really curious how they compare. if i fixed my model 5s up would they sound as good as the 6s?

also how does the model 4 compare to the model 6 sonically?

im trying to think if i should put money into my model 5s or just invest in a pair of 6s and call it a day.

i seem to be drawn to those model 4s as well some how, they just seem to have character.

im really too poor to afford any of these, but i know i will get money somehow anyways.

please let me know any info

[JKent]

Welcome!

I don't know about 4 vs 5 vs 6 but..... Have you heard the 12s? I think they're great and if you find a pair for sale you can probably buy them cheap. I have a pair of Fives that I recapped but still don't think they hold a candle to the Twelves. I even prefer my AR 2ax's to the Fives. YMMV

Kent

[bjornklh]

dam, there so pretty, i wish they were a better model sonically. i have a pair of 17s that blows them out of the water anyday with clarity, and ive heard the 6s are like this too. my favoritesare my advent ones, probably the best speaker ive ever heard, for under 2000$

im so sad, my mom had a pair of model 12s that she bought new in 1967, and i got rid of them when i was little due to space lacking in nyc apartment,

i didnt really appreciate anything without hardcore bass back then, and now i want to smack myself for that, real bad, although i dont know how i would have moved them anywhere else.

i remember them being pretty good. i still have the crossover units. if i could ever find anouther pair in close proximity i would buy them

they are monsters if i remember tho, how much do those weigh? how did you aquire yours?

[JKent]

That IS sad but I know what you mean--they are heavy beasts. I don't really have room for them either, but I can't part with them. There is a photo of mine, and discussion of my crossover refurbs here:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Boar...?showtopic=4111

I got mine on ebay with a "local pickup only." The guy had a lot: the Twelves, a KLH Model 18 tuner and a vintage no-name speaker selector switch. Bidding started at $100 and I was the only bidder! People don't seem to want these. They sounded awful when I got them, but after the new caps--beautiful!

I have not heard a side-by-side comparison with the revered AR3a's, but I bet these would hold their own. If you come across a pair you can probably get them cheap. Only problem is the shipping. They are 29"x22"x15" and weigh 85 lbs each. The xo is 9x10x2 1/2".

Good luck.

Kent

[bjornklh]

i really wish i could find a set locally.

yeah that was part of the reason we got rid of them, because they sounded pretty muddy, but im sure it was just the caps, looking back on it.

yeah they arent easy to come by. heck id be willing to make a road trip to give a pair a good home.

what drivers do they use? i wonder if there isnt a way to build a pair?

well thanks for the info.

and thanks for the welcome, as a klh junkie i will probably be on here a lot.

i dont know how ive become obsessed, im in my 20s, but love these speakers somehow.

if you have time i posted a thing on klh 8 resto, if you have time.

thanks again.

[tysontom]

ok so first off love klh stuff, always have

really some of the best stuff ever..

hooked.

I have a set of klh 5s and they are probably the most dissapointing set of klh's that i have

i love my 17s, best speaker i have to a degree

but these 5s sound really soggy and bad, they have good bass, but a lot of just noise, really unclear sound. im thinking this is the capacitors in the crossover and surrounds.

how do the model 6's compare to the model 5s? and im talking about the model fives with 5 drivers, not the old old ones.

im really curious how they compare. if i fixed my model 5s up would they sound as good as the 6s?

also how does the model 4 compare to the model 6 sonically?

i seem to be drawn to those model 4s as well some how, they just seem to have character.

im really too poor to afford any of these, but i know i will get money somehow anyways.

Dear bjornklh:

This very topic has been covered countless other times on this forum, and a good search on these models will reveal much more information than you would probably ever need. I have added to it, mainly because I have some images to post on the early KLH Four, to which you refer in your message. I assume you are referring to the Model Four and not one of the later cookie-cuter models using the same number.

As others have said, the problem you are having with the Model Fives probably has to do with crossover capacitors. The Five has a relatively complex crossover, and there are lots of caps that probably need to be tested and replaced. This might make a big difference.

The Five was generally regarded as an excellent speaker -- one of KLH’s better efforts -- and it is roughly comparable to AR’s Model AR-5, though not as accurate in the midrange and treble. Properly working, it should have a very neutral, “uncolored” sound characteristic that does not call attention to itself. The AR-5 is superior overall in smoothness and dispersion, and thus also has a superior acoustic-power response (the total energy propagated into a listening environment). The Model Five surpasses the AR-5, however, by a small margin in the low bass, making it fall somewhere between the AR-3a and the AR-5 in that regard, but those differences are very minor. The Model Five also had very low distortion, one of KLH’s better efforts in this regard. I believe that the KLH Five has lower distortion in the deep bass than its much-larger sibling, the KLH Model Twelve. The Twelve used almost identical components, but the woofer magnet was significantly larger than the one used in the Five. The reason for this was low-frequency damping: the Twelve used a much larger enclosure, and thus the speaker was more of an infinite-baffle-type loading than true acoustic-suspension; i.e., much of the restoring force for the woofer cone was in the speakers mechanical suspensions itself rather than the air of the enclosure. Bass resonance was lower than in the Five, but under duress or high-output levels, the Five had ultimately lower distortion than the Twelve. I once saw a KLH dealer vainly attempt to use two Model Twelves replicate a jazz ensemble in a crude live-vs.-recorded demonstration, and the equipment used in addition to the Twelves was a large McIntosh MC2300 power amp and a 800-series Crown professional tape deck. Because the recording was improperly made, the sound did not quite replicate the jazz group (there was some slight "double reverberation"), but the power and effect of live music was very impressive, nonetheless. The big Mac amplifier (with both fans running) blew a half-dozen KLH Twelve woofers due to the great power needed to reproduce a bass drum. In this case, the large Twelve enclosure with its lower resonance and less air loading did not protect the woofer in the sub-sonic region of deep-bass reproduction. Had the dealer chosen the smaller KLH Five with its true acoustic-suspension loading, the results would have probably been more successful.

Compared to the Model Six, the Five has better low-end response and higher power-handling capability. From test reports, it probably was a bit smoother in output across the spectrum, especially in the lower midrange. The early Model Four, dating back to the late 50s, had better bass response than the KLH Six, and probably somewhat more extension into the deep bass than the Model Five. Many reviewers and critics considered the early Model Four to be very musical and natural sounding, and it seems to have accomplished that goal. It was designed to outperform the Acoustic Research AR-1, but all bets were off when the AR-3 was introduced a year or two later, and thus the Model Four was never a commercial success with less than 10,000 speakers built, compared with about 80,000 AR-3s. There were, in fact, practically no magazine reports on the KLH Four, which hurt sales quite a bit. A dealer once told me that Henry Kloss was satisfied to have up-scale audio salons sell the Model Four along side McIntosh and Marantz electronics, and not worry about the one-on-one comparisons and competitive discounts that accompanied many of the AR models. He thus did not submit the Model Four for reviews, but did so heavily with the Model Six and other speakers.

I have dissected an early Model Four and compared it to an early Model Six, and the biggest differences are in the size of the woofer magnet, voice coil and cone assembly. The cabinet in the Four is slightly larger than the Six, so the bass resonance was a few cycles lower (putting it between the AR-2/AR-5 speaker and the AR-1/AR-3/AR-3a systems, also the conclusion of testing labs during early test reports).

All of the Model Fours were the sealed-epoxied version, and many of the KLH Sixes were built that way well into the middle 60s. The principal advantage of this, despite all of the grievous shortcomings, was extremely accurate moving-system alignment and accuracy, and thus rarely a rubbing voice coil or other noises. This design was an interesting and integral part of audio history!

--Tom Tyson

[Guest Sal Brisindi]

That's one way you can open a KLH speaker... :-)

[tysontom]

That's one way you can open a KLH speaker... :-)

Yes, just saw it open! Well, in this case, this speaker had no output from the tweeters, thus the crossover capacitor was a goner. Since it was a single speaker, and was a "gift" of sorts, it had no value to me (I do have two other pairs in good working order), so I saw this as an opportunity to "look" inside the cabinet. The best way to look into something is to dissect it, and that's what I did with my Milwaukee 15-amp circular saw. It looks messy, of course, but who cares! The truth of the matter is that it can also be put back together by repairing it, putting back the fiberglass bats and epoxying the top and bottom halves together, then sanding the seam; but this one is a sacrificial lamb.

--Tom Tyson

[bjornklh]

thanks, your answer was exactly what i was looking for. i knew there was info on the crossovers, just wasnt entirely sure how much this affected the sound quality. and there was also info on those speakers by themselfs, but i was really looking for a comparison of those models, which you gave me a very exact one, so thank you sooo much.

i was tempted to get a pair of sixes too and save up, but if the 5 is comparable, i will just restore those, pull them apart and fix the caps. do you know anything about the hazards of oil filled caps and which models would have them? ive heard they could have pcbs in them, not sure if just bs or? also is the filler dangerous at all to breathe in or is it just fiberglass?

its cool to see inside a pair of those for sure, its kinda a rare photo as difficult as they are to open, built so differently then any other speaker.

although yes painful, very painful to see, but with the angle they will probably go back together well.

im still tempted to try to get a set of model fours, there just so cool looking somehow.

i remember a freind of my moms had a set of klh 5s when i was little and i remember them just being this wonderful speaker, and something that was like an event to listen too, which was why i was so surprised when my set just kinda sounded like soggy butt cheek. they have bass for sure, but a lot of middle soggyness and unclarity, it would make sense if frequencys that werent supposed to be going to bigger or littler drivers were, that it would get this way, ive just never replaced the caps in my 17s and they still are pretty clean. but if the five crossover is more complicated, which it must be, that would explain it. is the tweeter the same as the six?

i know the midranges are the all purpose klh mids that aregood, and the woofer is a good one.

also one is somewhat darker then the other, from smoke or something, is there a way to lighten it?

should i re coat the surrounds?

ive heard they can leak

but ive also heard its a bad idea to mess with them

with that i will stop asking annoying questions on this page, thanks so much for all the info

[bjornklh]

yeah reading that again, twas exactly the info i was looking for, so thanks again.

i think i over did it with the little faces in the reply

[tysontom]

thanks, your answer was exactly what i was looking for. i knew there was info on the crossovers, just wasnt entirely sure how much this affected the sound quality. and there was also info on those speakers by themselfs, but i was really looking for a comparison of those models, which you gave me a very exact one, so thank you sooo much.

Chances are much better than not that the crossover capacitors are bad. Once again, the KLH Five had a fairly complex crossover, and I believe that there were quite a few capacitors. It would be a safe bet to replace them if you feel comfortable doing that sort of thing. You could have a defective midrange or tweeter, but usually there is no output from the drivers if they are bad; from your description, you are hearing a lot of muddiness and distortion. Make sure your electronics are up to the task.

i was tempted to get a pair of sixes too and save up, but if the 5 is comparable, i will just restore those, pull them apart and fix the caps. do you know anything about the hazards of oil filled caps and which models would have them? ive heard they could have pcbs in them, not sure if just bs or? also is the filler dangerous at all to breathe in or is it just fiberglass?

The KLH Fives do not have oil-filled capacitors; only the earliest KLH Fours, Sixes and Sevens had those caps to my knowledge. Ironically, those caps were war-surplus-type devices (mil-spec), and rarely would you find one of those that had failed. It is therefore desirable to find the early Sixes or Fours with these capacitors, as everything usually works fine. I suspect the oil was a PCB-type, but as long as the caps are sealed, there shouldn't be any concern.

its cool to see inside a pair of those for sure, its kinda a rare photo as difficult as they are to open, built so differently then any other speaker.

although yes painful, very painful to see, but with the angle they will probably go back together well.

The KLH Four was quite simple, but certainly well made and solid. The bracing was minimal when compared to an AR-1 or AR-3, but obviously sufficient to do the job. KLH did cut the fiberglass cabinet-damping material into specific small bats, and therefore a proper amount of stuffing could be assured for each speaker. AR did not do as well in this regard.

im still tempted to try to get a set of model fours, there just so cool looking somehow.

KLH Fours are fairly rare, and pretty collectible, mainly because so few were made. Compared with a KLH Six of the same vintage, the Four was very similar, but with more power in the low bass.

i remember a freind of my moms had a set of klh 5s when i was little and i remember them just being this wonderful speaker, and something that was like an event to listen too, which was why i was so surprised when my set just kinda sounded like soggy butt cheek. they have bass for sure, but a lot of middle soggyness and unclarity, it would make sense if frequencys that werent supposed to be going to bigger or littler drivers were, that it would get this way, ive just never replaced the caps in my 17s and they still are pretty clean. but if the five crossover is more complicated, which it must be, that would explain it. is the tweeter the same as the six?

i know the midranges are the all purpose klh mids that aregood, and the woofer is a good one.

I think the tweeter was the same as the Six, and the midranges were used with other systems (in some cases as full-range small speakers).

also one is somewhat darker then the other, from smoke or something, is there a way to lighten it?

You could sand the oiled-walnut cabinets down to get close to the original Walnut color; then you could sand with a very fine grit (400-600 grit) sandpaper, then re-oil the cabinets using a Walnut-stain oil such as Watco's Satin Oil. Watco is one of the finer oil finishes, and many manufacturers used Watco (including AR and KLH from time to time) to finish their cabinets. Even Velodyne used Watco for their Walnut-finished subwoofers, and suppled a small packet of the oil for re-oiling later on.

should i re coat the surrounds?

ive heard they can leak

but ive also heard its a bad idea to mess with them

You can test for this. With the speaker grills removed, take the fingers of one hand and while applying even pressure around the dust cap, gently push in the woofer about 1/4-inch, hold and then release quickly. If the cone bounces back out immediately, then the surround might be leaking. It it comes out slowly, then the seal is perfect. If in doubt, don't do anything as you may make it worse. There are others on this site that have more experience with the KLH cloth surround, and these people can recommend a sealant. Contact Andy on this KLH site or Roy C over on the AR side for further information.

--Tom Tyson

[bjornklh]

yeah i think im going to get in there and replace them. ive never done before, but am an old electonics junkie on a limited budget, so this is something i should learn, i have some other equipment that twould benifit from similar. it doesnt seem like too difficult of a job, im just paranoid about breathing in the insulation, dumb stuff. haha i think its so cool a company used mil spec stuff. i like its simplicity, and they still seem to go pretty cheip, just shipping and finding a pair for sale is tough. if anyone hasa pair they are willing to part with let me know.

if the tweeter was the same as the six, i feel good, cuz that was similar to the 17s i have which i looove, which tells me it probably is capacitor issues.

i think i want to keep the original finish, just cuz i doubt i can do as good a job, i just wish i could lighten the one. maybe some rubbing and buffing. i will try that watco stuff on something or other though and see how it does with walnut.

i will for sure try the press in test with all of my klh's and see. i think my 17s are good, but the 5s probably not.

once again for the enourmous amount of information

its good to see im not the only random person that is into klh stuff

advent stuff is amazing too

pretty much anything kloss got his hands into

thanks again, bjorn

[JKent]

Watco Oil comes in different colors. There is a Natural and a Dark Walnut (and others). It may be easier to darken the lighter cabinet. My recommendation would be to use Howard's Restor-a-Finish first. Again, it comes in different colors, so you could use Walnut on the lighter cabinet and Neutral or maybe Golden Oak on the darker one. This stuff really evens out the finish and hides many blemishes. You rub it on with 0000 steel wool then wipe off. Easy. If the colors are better matched after Howard's, then try the Natural Watco Oil on both. Again--easy to use. You wipe it on, wait 1/2 hour, wipe it off. Wait a day and put a 2nd coat on the same way.