AR LSTs/AR3a Sound difference

[Mexicomike]

I have always wanted a pair of LSTs since they first came out but have pretty much given that up as being unlikely to ever happen but in seeing several recent posts about them, it triggered a question.

Do LST's sound inherently different from 3As? That may seem a dumb question but they share the same drivers so I was wondering if there is a difference in the basic sound quality or is it primarily that the LSTs throw a better soundstage due the angled cabinets and, of course, can handle more power.

As I said, I have lusted after LSTs but have never heard or even seen one live. I've only seen the adds back then (couldn't come close to affording them) and read reviews. So I'd be interested in the views of anyone who has both speakers or who has auditioned both at some time.

[r_laski]

It's been too many years since I compared AR-3a's and AR-LST's to each other (mid 70's). However, in the past few years I made direct comparison listening tests between the AR-LST, the AR-11 (similar to the AR-3a), and the AR-90.

>>Do LST's sound inherently different from 3As? That may seem a dumb question but they share the same drivers so I was wondering if there is a difference in the basic sound quality or is it primarily that the LSTs throw a better soundstage due the angled cabinets and, of course, can handle more power.<<

The LST does sound "different" from other AR speakers. The sound stage is different as you state. However, you can get the LST to have a very similar "voice" to the AR-3a by manipulating the spectral balance switch.

Of course the AR-9 / AR-90 sound different from the AR-3a / AR-11 also.

If you ever get your hands on a pair of LST's or can listen to them you will not be disappointed. One thing about my experience with the LSTs -- they require significantly more power to get them to really "sing" and bring out their true greatness compared to even the AR-9.

Rich

[dynaco_dan]

I have always wanted a pair of LSTs since they first came out but have pretty much given that up as being unlikely to ever happen but in seeing several recent posts about them, it triggered a question.

Do LST's sound inherently different from 3As? That may seem a dumb question but they share the same drivers so I was wondering if there is a difference in the basic sound quality or is it primarily that the LSTs throw a better soundstage due the angled cabinets and, of course, can handle more power.

As I said, I have lusted after LSTs but have never heard or even seen one live. I've only seen the adds back then (couldn't come close to affording them) and read reviews. So I'd be interested in the views of anyone who has both speakers or who has auditioned both at some time.

Hi there;

Don't stop dreaming about owning a pair of the AR-LST's.

Perhaps you can find a reasonable local pair.

A friend told me that he bought the AR-LST/2's, thinking he would be happy, he was not, he had compromised, when he was really wanting the AR-LST's all the time.

There is probably many AR-LST/2 owner's that are very happy with their choice.

I wrote here more than a few times of my first in-home experience with the AR-LST's.

About 1970 I bought AR-3A's and lived with them and an AR Turntable, AR amplifier and AR Tuner.

Around 1974 I was able to borrow from a local store a pair of the AR-LST's for a weekend.

My impression with this setup was that, the LST's were worth twice the price of my AR-3A's or I heard twice the sound quality.

Due to poor WAF I returned them on Monday to the store.

There was now a void in my hifi life.

Had I never heard the LST's, I would not feel I had missed anything.

But I did and it wasn't until about the early '90's that I had an opportunity to buy a beatup pair locally.

A lot of work and labour of love was needed to bring them to near acceptable appearance and sound.

Over these past years I have swapped these out with AR-3A's, AR-4X's, Large Advent's, EPI 100's, Dynaco A-25's, A-35's, A-50's, NHT Super Zeros, KLH Twelves and others as they were adopted by me.

After a few months of test driving each speaker system, I would go back to the LST's again.

What did I learn by doing all of this, I enjoyed each speaker for themselves, not comparing them.

Each speaker is different in size, price and sound output.

Size does not mean everything, nor does price.

I only wish I had been given the opportunity to hear Allison's, Cizek's and a whole lot of other products.

My first real love of hifi was really started with the AR-4X's.

I will always feel fondly towards my guidance of Consumer Report's.

Today the AR-LST"s are really very expensive on ebay, for just one example of a source.

I do not believe that stacking AR-3A's will give that same feeling of power and control that the LST's exude.

Tremendous smile factor, if the neighbours do not complain.

Ultra clear, very good dispersion, but and this is a, big but, they're in need of a stable, clean, large powered amplifier, for certain, and decent related equipment to perform at their best.

The AR amplifier did make a good amplifier choice at the beginning.

Once I had an opportunity to borrow for a weekend a Crown DC-300A amplifier and IC -150 pre-amplifier.

Well, with this pair, I now had another noticeabley dramatic improvement with my AR-3A's.

Dramatic, as in I noticed the change for the better, with about half a minute of deep bass, felt for the first time, under the same circumstances.

I now had the bug, after returning the amp and pre-amp on the Monday, to the store, once again.

About 20 years later I picked up a used Crown Amcron DC-300A amplifier and Crown IC-150 pre-amp and I have used this with the LST's ever since.

Well, almost ever since, I alternate a Dynaco Double 400 in between as well.

You may have a Dynaco Stereo 120/PAS-3X or Pat 4 or 5 or 5 Bi-Fet and be also very happy.

Vern

[soundminded]

I have always wanted a pair of LSTs since they first came out but have pretty much given that up as being unlikely to ever happen but in seeing several recent posts about them, it triggered a question.

Do LST's sound inherently different from 3As? That may seem a dumb question but they share the same drivers so I was wondering if there is a difference in the basic sound quality or is it primarily that the LSTs throw a better soundstage due the angled cabinets and, of course, can handle more power.

As I said, I have lusted after LSTs but have never heard or even seen one live. I've only seen the adds back then (couldn't come close to affording them) and read reviews. So I'd be interested in the views of anyone who has both speakers or who has auditioned both at some time.

I think the question is an interesting one that deserves some thought. It's been a long time since I heard either speaker system and I don't recall hearing them side by side but theory has quite a bit to say about how and why they will sound different.

If all the drivers on LST were mounted on a flat baffle, the difference would be due solely to constructive and destructive interference of several divers at each frequency in the midrange and tweeter band which do not originate at the same point in space. There would also be a change in the apparant lateral size of the source. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Look at the posting for Rectillinear III below and note that this is the deliberate arrangement of its 4 tweeters and it was considered a very successful design by those who knew it well, some calling it among the best speakers available. But the geometry of the cabinet aiming the tweeters and midranges in different directions changes a lot. In an aneochoic chamber, if you were at 45 degrees off axis directly facing one of the side panels and the driver outputs were adjusted to match those of AR3a, except for this constructive/destructive interference between the two midrange drivers (which may not even be audible) LST would probably sound identical to AR3a. At the 575 hz crossover frequency of the woofer, its dispersion should be fairly good owing to the fact that its 8" effective radiating diameter is somewhat smaller than the nearly two foot wavelength at that frequency. Some falloff might be detectable changing the overall balance slightly. As you move closer on axis, the woofer output at its top end would increase. Treble output would clearly increase owing to the fact that there are 2 tweeters instead of one and how output of the midrange drivers married to alter their balance would depend on frequency and dispersion at the frequency of concern. When you put the speaker in a real room, things are not so simple. LST will give far greater lateral reflections of middle and high frequencies off both side walls than AR3a depending on the reflectivity of the walls. There is sharp disagreement as to whether or not this is desirable. Most audiophiles today believe the best speakers have poor dispersion beaming most of their sound directly at the listeners insofar as is possible. Look at the dispersion data for most modern 1" tweeters compared to AR3a's 3/4"tweeter and much above 12 khz they stink, the AR3a having the widest hf dispersion of any tweeter I have ever seen. This not only restricts optimal listening area of modern speakers to a very small region of a listening room and requires careful aiming, it reduces the apparent size of each source of a sound to a point. This is what many audiophiles say they want. But Dr. Floyd Toole says in his marketing research that most people actually prefer early lateral reflections based on his own experiments. Getting away from highly paid hi-fi marketing geeks like Dr. Toole and reading someone who actually knows something far more about acoustics, Leo Beranek has a very interesting technical paper downloadable on his web site. In it, he compares the opinions of many symphony orchestra conductors and other "afficionados" about the acoustics of 58 world famous concert halls with measured data for 10 different objective performance parameters. One parameter called ASW for aparant source width correlates greater apparent source width resulting from early lateral reflections with preferred acoustics, that is the wider the source sounds the better they like it. It also improves BQI or binaural quality index (his proposed name for 1-IACC where IACC is the inter-aural cross correlation or monophonicity of the acoustics.) Therefore LST should give a more spacious sound with optimal listening over a wider area in a room than AR3a. This is why IMO it is probably the best factory made loudspeaker ever, in these important aspects. This also makes it clearly superior to AR9 overall. AR9's advantage is superior bass and smoother response in the region between 200 hz and 1.5 khz where the 8" lower midrange operates, a concession to the reality that the problem in that region was not satisfactorily resolvable without an extra driver so there is no single best "best.")

[dynaco_dan]

Hi there;

Very interesting write-up, thank you very much.

I was given a brief demonstration of AR-9's at a past customers home a few years ago.

He was using Crown DC-300A amp and IC-150A pre-amp.

The music source was unfamiliar to me and I really didn't get to truly hear them as I would have liked.

He had a very impressive equipment selection.

Sadly, I cannot give any opinion of the speaker sound quality compared to any other speaker system, including my AR-3A's or AR-LST's.

[Mexicomike]

I haven't TOTALLY given up on having some LST's but based on the fact that there aren't many of them in the first place and the fact that there are folks in other parts of the world that are willing to pay a lot more for them than I can, I think it's pretty unlikely that I will ever have a pair.

If I did acquire a pair, I would relegate the AR amp to TV speaker duty and use either my Moscode 300 (300wpc) or my McIntosh 70270 (270WPC) to drive them. At the moment the Moscode is wasting it's time driving some Thiel CS2s as part of our "video system," and the Mc is powering the Magneplanars/HSU subwoofer of our "main" stereo system. But in actuality the AR3a/AR amp has now become the main system. My wife still (and said again just a few minutes ago) says, "I don't understand how these [nearly] 40 year old speakers sound better than these other [newer and more expensive] speakers."

I check ebay periodically - there were some LST2s on there recently but I'm not interested in the LST's little brother.

Yep, someday I'd love to have some LSTs but... ;(

[dynaco_dan]

I haven't TOTALLY given up on having some LST's

My wife still (and said again just a few minutes ago) says, "I don't understand how these [nearly] 40 year old speakers sound better than these other [newer and more expensive] speakers."

I check ebay periodically - there were some LST2s on there recently but I'm not interested in the LST's little brother.

Yep, someday I'd love to have some LSTs but... ;(

Hi there;

Don't give up thinking about them.

Your wife is a keeper.

No WAF problems there. LOL

Vern

[Guest pbda]

Funny you should ask...I just compared them about two weeks ago. I'm not a technician...others on this site are far more competent in that regard...but here are my listening thoughts.

I've owned 3as for several years, and they've been my primary speakers for some time. They were the speakers I wanted to buy when I was 16, but back in the '70s they were way out of my ball park financially. The LSTs were so phenomenally out of reach that I never even bothered to lust after them.

Last year I bought a pair of LSTs that needed meaningful work, as I've detailed in another thread. My impression of the LST, as compared to the 3a, is one of a broader and more realistic soundstage: The LST "disappears" more readily than the 3a. The spectral balance control is a very nice touch, and allows the listener to more accurately tailor the speakers' response to the physical characteristics of the room they are in. There is certainly an AR family sound to both speakers, but the LSTs give more of an impression of "being there". Bass response is better as well, due to the larger cabinet volume.

As noted above, the LST is lower in WAF than the 3a, but higher than the AR9 (which sounds very different to my ear than the LST). I suggest holding out for the LST over the LST2...the bass response is well worth it. Do note that the LSTs are a difficult load to drive, and they are power-hungry, so you'll need to carefully consider your amplifier/receiver's capabilities.

The gentleman who so beautifully refurbished my LSTs currently has, if I remember correctly, two pairs of LSTs that he is preparing for sale. If you would like to send me a private message or e-mail, I'll be happy to give you his contact details so you can contact him before they go on eBay.

[dynaco_dan]

I haven't TOTALLY given up on having some LST's but based on the fact that there aren't many of them in the first place and the fact that there are folks in other parts of the world that are willing to pay a lot more for them than I can, I think it's pretty unlikely that I will ever have a pair.

If I did acquire a pair, I would relegate the AR amp to TV speaker duty and use either my Moscode 300 (300wpc) or my McIntosh 70270 (270WPC) to drive them. At the moment the Moscode is wasting it's time driving some Thiel CS2s as part of our "video system," and the Mc is powering the Magneplanars/HSU subwoofer of our "main" stereo system. But in actuality the AR3a/AR amp has now become the main system. My wife still (and said again just a few minutes ago) says, "I don't understand how these [nearly] 40 year old speakers sound better than these other [newer and more expensive] speakers."

I check ebay periodically - there were some LST2s on there recently but I'm not interested in the LST's little brother.

Yep, someday I'd love to have some LSTs but... ;(

Hi again;

Today I was reminicing about the announcement of the AR-LST's in one of the hifi magazine's, at that time.

I already owned the AR-3A's, my dream sytem, at that time, at least until I read about the AR-LST's.

My heart quivered in excitement.

I was bitten by the write-up alone.

My first listening session of them, in a store, was very thrilling.

I wanted them with a passion.

It seems to me, I thought if I had a pair at home, they might stay, with WAF acceptance.

Well, I can say, she was livid, to be polite.

The weekend demo was a tease for me, as I knew there were going back to the store on Monday.

Couldn't be nice enough, smile enough or pout enough for them to be considered mine.

I tried bribes but we were married too long and with 3 kids for that to work anymore. LOL

I felt empty having returned them but a change in job's distracted me from thinking about the loss.

It would be 20 years later when the first beater pair I have came up to my front door and bit me.

The second pair came along a few years later, both local purchase.

With the first pair I needed to replace all of the tweeters, re-foam the woofers, and re-finish, as best as possible, the cabinets.

The tweeter's re-placed, were the first generation, front wired, and of course the smoke stained grille cloths were a sight.

I investigated lot's of optional replacement tweeter's before finally deciding to place a local order for the approximately, mid '90's 3/4" tweeter with the foam covered face plate, rear wired, AR tweeters.

These were just about the most expensive option but this is what I chose.

Vifa was one brand mentioned, at a much lower cost.

The order was placed for the 8 - AR 3/4" replacement tweeters and away we went.

The cabinetry is about 90 - 95% restored.

My daughter used a locally made cream, with water, to try to remove some of the stain, by rubbing with a cloth or sponge.

There was a dramatic difference where she did rub, almost no discolouration.

Look Dad, "no cloth"! LOL LOL

We were moving about that time, nothing more was done after that, I can't hear the stain's anyway's.

I will say, I feel that the AR-4X is the child, the AR-3A is the father and the AR-LST's are the Grampa.

There is a certain authoritive, clean, neutral, power that the LST's have, that the 3A's just don't quite have.

I also love my AR-3A's, and so should you.

But, I still value, the AR-4X's, as my very first, hifi speaker, love.

Over the years, members have read many times my love of the AR-4X's and how I was introduced and listened to them at home when new.

If you never hear AR-LST's and you already own lesser AR speakers, just enjoy what you have, one can tire of the, AR-LST's, as being, that great.

Soon, they are just more expensive, difficult to place and drive, speakers, nothing special.

Yeh sure!! LOL LOL

Anyone not wanting their's, I will greatfully accept all donated AR-LST speakers, pre-paid shipping and handling of course. LOL LOL

[soundminded]

This is going to sound like sacriledge to some of you, but "lusting" after something you can't have because it just doesn't exist is a pointless measure of self torture. You can spend the rest of your life scouring the Salvation Army Stores, used equipment stores, classified ads, and e-bay and still not come up with anything that actually resembles an AR LST. And a 2008 AR LST will not sound exactly like a 1968 LST anyway. There is an alternative and that is to "roll your own." Unlike 1968 when raw acoustic suspension drivers and high quality dome tweeters were simply not generally available, there are plenty of them out there today. A lot of contributors here love experimenting with loudspeaker systems. Here's also a perfect opportunity for someone like Carl to offer more than just an AR3a with an upgraded midrange and tweeter. If you can't copy the speaker system exactly, copy the idea. After all, it is the principles embodied in LST which in large measure contribute to its unique sound. You can start with any AR 12" woofer in its own cabinet and work around it or you can buy something like the Parts Express 12" Reference high fidelity subwoofer kit and add a lower midrange to cover the range from 200 hz up to 525 or 575 hz. Can't find a dome tweeter that matches the AR 3/4" for wide dispersion at the highest frequencies, then use a semicircular array of 8 tweeters instead of 4. The end result may not look like an LST but I'll bet with time, patience, and creative energy as well as all of the modern resources available such as active crossover networks, equalizers, and multi-amplification, you can build a speakers whose sound comes remarkably close. Just an idea I thought I'd throw out for someone with a few thousand dollars floating around with nothing better to spend it on and plenty of time to kill.

[roundhome]

This is going to sound like sacriledge to some of you, but "lusting" after something you can't have because it just doesn't exist is a pointless measure of self torture. You can spend the rest of your life scouring the Salvation Army Stores, used equipment stores, classified ads, and e-bay and still not come up with anything that actually resembles an AR LST. And a 2008 AR LST will not sound exactly like a 1968 LST anyway. There is an alternative and that is to "roll your own." Unlike 1968 when raw acoustic suspension drivers and high quality dome tweeters were simply not generally available, there are plenty of them out there today. A lot of contributors here love experimenting with loudspeaker systems. Here's also a perfect opportunity for someone like Carl to offer more than just an AR3a with an upgraded midrange and tweeter. If you can't copy the speaker system exactly, copy the idea. After all, it is the principles embodied in LST which in large measure contribute to its unique sound. You can start with any AR 12" woofer in its own cabinet and work around it or you can buy something like the Parts Express 12" Reference high fidelity subwoofer kit and add a lower midrange to cover the range from 200 hz up to 525 or 575 hz. Can't find a dome tweeter that matches the AR 3/4" for wide dispersion at the highest frequencies, then use a semicircular array of 8 tweeters instead of 4. The end result may not look like an LST but I'll bet with time, patience, and creative energy as well as all of the modern resources available such as active crossover networks, equalizers, and multi-amplification, you can build a speakers whose sound comes remarkably close. Just an idea I thought I'd throw out for someone with a few thousand dollars floating around with nothing better to spend it on and plenty of time to kill.

Hello soundminded the picture in this topic #54501 should prove to be interesting

[dynaco_dan]

Hello soundminded the picture in this topic #54501 should prove to be interesting

Hi there;

Nice to see this photo once again.

Is it Frank's stacked speaker system? LOL LOL

If one has the proper cabinet, woofer's, mid's and tweeter drivers, perhaps, Allison brand, there is no reason that a system, similar in design to the AR-LST's, cannot be built.

I wonder if the tweeters or mids have foam under their cover's, the same as the AR 3/4" dome tweeters?

After reading TomT's description of the Allison drivers, I think we all missed the boat, if we did not listen to Roy Allison speakers, at the very least.

I had only one opportunity to hear, very briefly, I believe it was the AL-110 speaker system, in the mid '90's.

[Mexicomike]

Thought I'd let everyone know that I went from "I'll never be able to get a pair of LSTs" to I'll have a pair of LST's waiting for me in Texas to pick up when we are there at the end of March! We are selling our Maggies and HSU subwoofer to some folks here in Mexico to make room for the LSTs in our "main" music system which is powered by 270WPC McIntosh preamp/amp. I can't wait!!!!!!!!!

A great site and thanks to all for the private emails on this subject!

[dynaco_dan]

Thought I'd let everyone know that I went from "I'll never be able to get a pair of LSTs" to I'll have a pair of LST's waiting for me in Texas to pick up when we are there at the end of March! We are selling our Maggies and HSU subwoofer to some folks here in Mexico to make room for the LSTs in our "main" music system which is powered by 270WPC McIntosh preamp/amp. I can't wait!!!!!!!!!

A great site and thanks to all for the private emails on this subject!

Hi again;

See, positive thinking netted you a pair, way to go.

Next you'll probably have another pair for stacking. LOL LOL

Or Dynamax them! LOL LOL

You will be pleased with the many hours of enjoyment ahead for you and your very WAF wife.