New New Large Advent owner - xover upgrade, amp questions

[Guest fazeka]

Hello all. I am a newbie here. First post. Great information I've been reading while I've been here.

Got me a pair of nice NLAs last Friday for $50, A456xxx (dated May 1980, 27 years old!). Couple questions...

I bought a refoam kit from looneytune2001 on eBay the next day and plan on installing this weekend. At the same time, I thought it would be a good idea to replace the xover 13uF cap. At the spur of the moment last week, I order two 12uF and two 1uF Solens from Parts Express, but after doing some research (I know, research FIRST!), I realize that this might not have been the best approach as some are saying go with the 'lytic/poly or 'lytic/poly/film-foil (i.e., rather than all metal poly) approach. Are there really significant differences on HF content in regards to these various combinations of caps?

Secondly, I have an Eico HF-81 integrated and a Dynaco ST-70/PAS-3 setup now that I understand would not compliment the Advents particualrly well due mainly to available power and damping factor. Many are saying that the Advents will really be at their best being driven by an SS amp. I have my eye on a Sansui 7070, as well as AU-317 and AU-417. The specs on the latter two are particularly impressive. What else would y'all recommend amplifier-wise to pair up with my Advents?

Thanks,

Chris

[dynaco_dan]

Hi Chris;

I believe you will find for NORMAL listening levels, the Dynaco setup to be more than adequate.

A very, very nice pair, which I have never heard.

I have read many comments as to its quality of sound, if stock.

This amp does not have a high damping factor, such as a newer solid state amp but you should enjoy it just the same.

I'll leave the caps comment for someone else.

[Carlspeak]

I'd say definitely replace the caps. Exactly which one to use? You could argue for hours about that. The main improvement you can make is to upgrade the caps. Beyond that, you should try a few different brands and decide for yourself. The subtly differences in modern caps are too miniscule to rely on other people's opinions.

It's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

[Pete B]

Your cap choice is fine, they should last many years, much longer than electrolytic caps. Put a .47 ohm 5W resistor in series with the new caps to approximate the ESR of the original electrolytics. All will be fine:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/dcbo..._id=1000&page=5

A SS amp is better IMO and 75-100W used below clipping will not be wasted if you ever like turn it up.

[Guest fazeka]

>A very, very nice pair, which I have never heard.

Hi Vern. Funny, your handle suggests just the opposite! =)

I have a line on a "Sansui 317 receiver" [sic] for $25, but the only Sansui 317 I know is the integrated AU-317.

I will see what that is all about tomorrow...

Thanks everyone for the advice. Maybe one day I can do double advents if these turn out nice! =)

[jackfish]

The Phase Linear 400 Series I is the amp of choice for the true vintage New Large Advent listener. I've got two restored that are driving stacked double New Large Advents. A restored Harman Kardon Citation 11 preamp, a Dual 1245 turntable with an AT440MLa, Harman Kardon TD4400 CD transcription cassette deck and Oppo DV-970HD (non-vintage but I gotta play my SACDs on something) rounds it out. Large Advents just sound better at normal listening volumes with 200 watts per speaker behind them.

[Guest fazeka]

>Large Advents just sound better at normal listening volumes with 200

>watts per speaker behind them.

I have heard that, but my preference/concern for using 50-75 watters stems from the second item in the available fusing information:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/advent/...Information.zip

Certainly, they are referring to average/normal listening levels...

Or am I just being paranoid?

Help out a newbie before I potentially damage my Advents!

[jackfish]

>>Large Advents just sound better at normal listening

>volumes with 200

>>watts per speaker behind them.

>

>I have heard that, but my preference/concern for using 50-75

>watters stems from the second item in the available fusing

>information:

>

>http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/advent/...Information.zip

>

>Certainly, they are referring to average/normal listening

>levels...

>

>Or am I just being paranoid?

>

>Help out a newbie before I potentially damage my Advents!

Actually, there is better information regarding fusing the Large Advent in threads regarding the subject here and in the "Other" forum on the main classicspeakerpages page. This includes a strong suggestion to fuse the woofer and tweeter separately. Under the right conditions even a 50 watt amp could damage the Large Advent.

[dynaco_dan]

Hi there;

There is more blown or burnt speakers with underpowered amps than overpowered.

Please always remember that these speakers referred to on this classic site are hifi speakers, not disco.

By this I mean, our classics were never meant to provide more than room filling music.

Disco levels are for those specialized speakers, not hifi.

Fast fuses, in the, "OTHER" forum, will give you some more guidance in the matter of fusing.

Individual drivers should really be fused but this is not the standard arrangement done by past manufacturers.

AR, Dynaco and Advent at least provided some general fusing information, and in some cases actually made the fuses and holders available at their cost to their customers.

These were a single fuse to protect, under normal circumstances, the complete speaker system.

Special purpose slow blow fuses were recommended by, Advent and AR, Dynaco recommended fast blow fuses.

The slow blow fuses are difficult to find in some areas and also the fuseholders.

We should also consider downrating, perhaps 25 - 30%, of the original size fuse ratings, as our speakers are aging and drivers are becoming scarce and expensive to replace.

Slow blow fuses can cost from a few dollars up to 7 or $8.00 US.

An original used replacement tweeter may end up costing $25.00 US or more.

I just asked my big bros, who is currently using AR-4X's, which fuses he is using, I was assuming he didn't, he said 1 amp fast blow.

I downloaded 2 photos here, one, a factory fusing drawing and the pther, a very high quality standard of installation of a FNM/FLM slow blow fuse block mounted on the rear of one of James' speakers.

The added crimp-on/solder-on cable connectors gives an added sense of security, very business-like.

[Guest fazeka]

>The slow blow fuses are difficult to find in some areas and

>also the fuseholders.

>

>We should also consider downrating, perhaps 25 - 30%, of the

>original size fuse ratings, as our speakers are aging and

>drivers are becoming scarce and expensive to replace.

>

>Slow blow fuses can cost from a few dollars up to 7 or $8.00

>US.

OK.

I did some digging around and I think the fusing thing sounds like a plan. Knowing me, I'd want to get inline fuse holders for the FNM 6/10 (25% less as per Vern's suggestion). I don't want to drill my otherwise nice Advents. Of course, these are about $15 each with the fuse is $8. I'll spend about as much on fusing as I bought the speakers for! And that's just for the woofers! LOL

I'll look next at options for fusing the tweets...

[dynaco_dan]

Hi again;

I haven't read of anyone here interested in exploring the separate driver fusing project.

I feel that there is too much work involved with our present speaker systems, myself.

No one, including myself, wants to butcher the classic speakers to run the separate wires out the rear of the cabinets.

As is, there is not enough room to conceal the fuse blocks into the AR speaker pot recess, or Advent switch recess, they certainly are prone to physical damage if they are just hanging out on the back.

Perhaps a manufacturer may read our write-ups and spend a few extra dollars installing fuseholders at the factory for the individual driver fusing requirements.

This is probably a pipedream, the increased cost is hard to get payback from.

The fuseholders would ideally be of the open cartridge style, rather that chassis mount type.

I have seen photos of Dahlquist, etc, that used chassis mount style fuseholders only.

I actually do not remember seeing an open style fuseholder on the rear of any speaker system from the factory.

After going to the Crown site, I feel that they are suggesting fast blow for the tweeters and mids and slow blow fuses for the woofers.

This would mean a cost of about $5.00 per speaker, at least, to the manufacturer just for the parts, if not more, for the AR-3A for one example of a 3-way system, slighly less for the Advents, being a 2-way system.

One must consider resale value if altering a classic speaker or any classic equipment.

You may be very competent to do an excellent job of modifying a speaker but some folks do not want anyone tinkering with a classic.

[Guest fazeka]

Hi Vern,

Ah, I didn't realize that the tweeter can't have an external inline fuseholder without altering the cabinets. It would have to be inside the cabinet (duh!), which would be a pain to get to if one needed to replace a blown fuse as it would mean having to remove one of the drivers! Not very convenient...

So I see your point. I guess everyone pretty much does the fusing at the system level (i.e., woof/tweet), right? If so, I think I will take that approach; I don't want to drill on my Advents.

I still would opt for the inline fuseholder rather than an open fuseholder in this case for obvious reasons.

Oh, BTW, that 317 was a tuner. I should have known. But maybe it was for the better (an AU-317 only has 50 watts; I don't want to risk blowing due to underpowering). I guess I will shoot for something like 75-100 watts. Maybe an AU-517 or AU-717 or a G-series or even an 8080? Can you tell I am partial to Sansui. =) Phase Linears sound nice, but I don't have that kind of bread...

[2Turbos]

Hello all. I am a newbie here. First post. Great information I've been reading while I've been here.

Got me a pair of nice NLAs last Friday for $50, A456xxx (dated May 1980, 27 years old!). Couple questions...

I bought a refoam kit from looneytune2001 on eBay the next day and plan on installing this weekend. At the same time, I thought it would be a good idea to replace the xover 13uF cap. At the spur of the moment last week, I order two 12uF and two 1uF Solens from Parts Express, but after doing some research (I know, research FIRST!), I realize that this might not have been the best approach as some are saying go with the 'lytic/poly or 'lytic/poly/film-foil (i.e., rather than all metal poly) approach. Are there really significant differences on HF content in regards to these various combinations of caps?

Secondly, I have an Eico HF-81 integrated and a Dynaco ST-70/PAS-3 setup now that I understand would not compliment the Advents particualrly well due mainly to available power and damping factor. Many are saying that the Advents will really be at their best being driven by an SS amp. I have my eye on a Sansui 7070, as well as AU-317 and AU-417. The specs on the latter two are particularly impressive. What else would y'all recommend amplifier-wise to pair up with my Advents?

Thanks,

Chris

Don't junk the Dynacos! I don't know where these notions come from, that tube amps don't drive Advents well. I'm amazed! This myth must be at least 35 years old. The Dyna stuff will make your Advents sound great! If anything you can upgrade and enhance the Dyna's performance through shops like VanAlstine among others, many upgrade parts are available through several sources.

[dynaco_dan]

Don't junk the Dynacos! I don't know where these notions come from, that tube amps don't drive Advents well. I'm amazed! This myth must be at least 35 years old. The Dyna stuff will make your Advents sound great! If anything you can upgrade and enhance the Dyna's performance through shops like VanAlstine among others, many upgrade parts are available through several sources.

Hi there;

In post #2, I wrote that the Dynaco pair should be ok for normal home listening requirements.

That amplifier has a low damping factor and not the highest of power outputs but at moderate levels they should be a good match.

A solid state amp will tighten up the bass a tad, but, at what cost and can the owner afford and hear the differences.

If the Dynaco pair were not working and he had asked us what to do, this would be a different write-up.

If they are both working ok, there is no reason to upgrade.

For a member to start to upgrade they should check out the, AVA or Curcio websites, first.

The final cost can be more than just a few sheckles.

Obviously, if one has the money, there is many levels of upgrading.

I do not believe that the average person has the correct tools or experience to do the upgrade job themselves.

If they cannot do the upgrade themselves, they must pay the piper, plus shipping and handling charges.

[Guest classic carl]

The slow blow fuses are difficult to find in some areas and also the fuseholders.

We should also consider downrating, perhaps 25 - 30%, of the original size fuse ratings, as our speakers are aging and drivers are becoming scarce and expensive to replace.

Slow blow fuses can cost from a few dollars up to 7 or $8.00 US.

For what it's worth, I just bought slow blows at Radio Shack last week. 1 amp, 2 amp and 2.5's were 4 for $2.99...don't know, but would imagine they'd sell them on their website too. I can't help with the holders. I've had mine since the 70's. I'm getting set to hook-up a Crown DC-300A to my Double Advents. I ordered some RCA to 1/4" interconnects a couple of days ago from Music123 because the Crown has 1/4" inputs. When the cables arrive, I'll be hooking it up. I'm presently using a Pioneer SA-9100 integrated amp to power the Advents. I'll be using the Pioneer as the pre-amp with the Crown...for a while at least.

[dynaco_dan]

For what it's worth, I just bought slow blows at Radio Shack last week. 1 amp, 2 amp and 2.5's were 4 for $2.99...don't know, but would imagine they'd sell them on their website too. I can't help with the holders. I've had mine since the 70's. I'm getting set to hook-up a Crown DC-300A to my Double Advents. I ordered some RCA to 1/4" interconnects a couple of days ago from Music123 because the Crown has 1/4" inputs. When the cables arrive, I'll be hooking it up. I'm presently using a Pioneer SA-9100 integrated amp to power the Advents. I'll be using the Pioneer as the pre-amp with the Crown...for a while at least.

Hi Carl;

I thought I had better jump in on this one again.

The slow blow fuses are Bussmann/Littlefuse FNM/FLM delayed action slow blow fuses, not glass slow blow fuses.

The glass fuses have a different characteristic and are not suitable for our speakers.

I have found the RCA - 1/4" mono adaptors being sold here now at our dollar stores for $1.00 each, gold plated even.

The Double Advent's with the Crown DC-300A are a very nice match.

That was one of several choice amplifier's used in that review.

I believe they used 3 amp fast blow fuses for that magazine review, with Advent's knowledge and no criticism.

It was not mentioned in that review that Advent had publicly recommended a Bussmann 8/10 amp FNM fuse per speaker.

Littlefuse make a FLM 8/10 fuse, which is the equivalent fuse.

This is also the same recommended fuse used for, The Smaller Advent speaker system.

What pre-amp are you using?

There was a direct link to, The Absolute Sound Double Advent article, until recently.

[Guest classic carl]

Hi Carl;

The slow blow fuses are Bussmann/Littlefuse FNM/FLM delayed action slow blow fuses, not glass slow blow fuses.

The glass fuses have a different characteristic and are not suitable for our speakers.

I have found the RCA - 1/4" mono adaptors being sold here now at our dollar stores for $1.00 each, gold plated even.

The Double Advent's with the Crown DC-300A are a very nice match.

That was one of several choice amplifier's used in that review.

I believe they used 3 amp fast blow fuses for that magazine review, with Advent's knowledge and no criticism.

This is also the same recommended fuse used for, The Smaller Advent speaker system.

What pre-amp are you using?

There was a direct link to, The Absolute Sound Double Advent article, until recently.

Thanks Dan, I haven't fused my Advents in about 20 years, but plan to once I connect the Crown to them. Are these slow blow fuses you refer to ceramic? I am considering using the 3 amp fast blow fuses (I assume these are glass?) that were used in the Double Advent article. I've had a copy since I bought my Advents in 1976. It's also available on the AK "Identifying your Advents" thread. Advent did state in their response to the article that these 3 amp fuses should suffice. As I stated previously, I presently am using a Pioneer SA-9100 (70 wpc into 4 ohms) integrated amp to power my Advents and will be using that as my pre-amp with the Crown for now. I do have a pair of 1/4" to RCA adapters but since I needed interconnects anyway, I decided to get the right ones to avoid using the adapters. I also have the original RCA to 1/4" cables that came with the Crown but they are poor quality as are my adapters. The DC-300A that I recently picked up looked like it was brand new...it's that clean. It came with the original carton and the manual with hand written test results verified by 2 different techs. I'll post photos later.

[Guest classic carl]

Dan, in the sketch above, it shows the fuse in the negative side of the speaker hook-up. Does it matter where the fuses are...positive or negative? If I remember correctly, I had my fuses in the positve side when I fused my Advents long ago. I'll have to check the sketch that came with my original Double Advent article.

[dynaco_dan]

Dan, in the sketch above, it shows the fuse in the negative side of the speaker hook-up. Does it matter where the fuses are...positive or negative? If I remember correctly, I had my fuses in the positve side when I fused my Advents long ago. I'll have to check the sketch that came with my original Double Advent article.

Hi again;

My practice is to always wire a fuse in the positive, red or hot line, the same as in a motor vehicle.

I've seen it done both ways.

I have never read any opinion to the contrary.

If the fuse is at the amp, wired in the positive/hot line, then it, in my opinion at least, is protecting the amplifier output as well, if there should be an electrical short towards the speakers.

If the fuse is at the speaker and a short, such as stepping on the cables occurs, the amp output is not protected by this fuse.

Mind you, the slow response may not be fast enough to protect the amps output drivers either.

Convenience of access to replacing the fuses is important too.

Yes, most every amp has fuses or some electronic protection built-in.

Bussmann FNM 8/10 or Littlefuse FLM 8/10 slow blow fuses data is available on their web sites.

Slow blow glass fuses or the ceramic microwave type fuses are not comparable.

Even though Advent did not reject the 3 amp fast blow fuse (glass version) used in that review, we should consider perhaps a slighly lower rating to protect our drivers.

Coincidently, Heath AS-103/103A speaker systems, as made available by Acoustic Research, as AR-3A speakers, used a 3 amp fast blow glass fuse.

This is the only cross-fusing information I can remember being posted by a manufacturer.

AR-3A's use Bussmann FNM 1 1/4 amp slow blow fuses.

[Guest classic carl]

Thanks again Dan. I bought AGC 2 amp fast acting glass fuses for now. I'll try to install them tonight and experiment with my present amp before I connect the Crown. My interconnects are due tomorrow. I found Bussman FNM 1 amp delayed action on the internet but they were $5.47 each. The AGC 2's were 4 for $2.99 at Radio Shack.

I have my fuse holders screwed into the back of the speaker cabs, like the above photo, so that's where they'll stay.

Thanks for all your help. I'll keep you posted.

[Guest classic carl]

I bought AGC 2 amp fast acting glass fuses for now. I'll try to install them tonight and experiment with my present amp before I connect the Crown.

I have my fuse holders screwed into the back of the speaker cabs, like the above photo, so that's where they'll stay.

I just installed the fuses on my Double Advents and also on a pair of Advent 1's that are wired in parallel with a pair of 4002's. See my avatar. The horizontal Advents are the fronts on my 5.1 system. The 4002's have a factory installed fuse in the back of each cab for the tweeter. The fuse is a 1.5 amp fast acting glass type. I have no idea whether that is the right one or not...but if it ain't broke...

I just grabbed the new Stanley Clarke CD, Toys of Men, and if the fuses survive this, I should be good to go. I seldom play it louder than it is right now. Mr. Clarke's bass is shaking the windows.

[Guest classic carl]

Thanks again Dan. I bought AGC 2 amp fast acting glass fuses for now. I'll try to install them tonight and experiment with my present amp before I connect the Crown. My interconnects are due tomorrow. I found Bussman FNM 1 amp delayed action on the internet but they were $5.47 each. The AGC 2's were 4 for $2.99 at Radio Shack.

I have my fuse holders screwed into the back of the speaker cabs, like the above photo, so that's where they'll stay.

Thanks for all your help. I'll keep you posted.

Well, I hooked up the Crown DC-300A and...Holy Crap Batman...I did not expect to hear much of a difference between the Crown and the Pioneer SA-9100, especially since I'm using the Pioneer as the pre-amp. I'm blown away by the sound of the Crown. My Double Advents have come to life. The low end is much tighter, more detailed and the soundstage seems much larger. Any brightness occasionally heard from the mids and highs, mostly from the CD player, has disappeared. I am now a huge Crown fan. This 45 pound beast really sounds incredible. I'm glad I won't have to move it in the near future. My vinyl sounds warmer and very detailed thoughout the entire frequency range. Whoever said that Double Advents don't come alive until they are fed from a 200wpc amp was right on. It sounds as if I just upgraded my speakers, but obviously they have just been released from the limitations of the previous power source. I think I'll keep the Crown.

[dynaco_dan]

Well, I hooked up the Crown DC-300A and...Holy Crap Batman...I did not expect to hear much of a difference between the Crown and the Pioneer SA-9100, especially since I'm using the Pioneer as the pre-amp. I'm blown away by the sound of the Crown. My Double Advents have come to life. The low end is much tighter, more detailed and the soundstage seems much larger. Any brightness occasionally heard from the mids and highs, mostly from the CD player, has disappeared. I am now a huge Crown fan. This 45 pound beast really sounds incredible. I'm glad I won't have to move it in the near future. My vinyl sounds warmer and very detailed thoughout the entire frequency range. Whoever said that Double Advents don't come alive until they are fed from a 200wpc amp was right on. It sounds as if I just upgraded my speakers, but obviously they have just been released from the limitations of the previous power source. I think I'll keep the Crown.

Hi again;

Nice to see someone else appreciate a Crown DC-300A amp.

I found that the Crown IC-150 is a good mate, but, there is others such as Dynaco PAT-5 Bi-Fet and other Dynas, Hafler, etc..

When I had an amp loaner at home, it took about 30 seconds to notice the big difference compared to an AR amplifier.

The biggest difference was the deep, really deep, gut massaging bass I felt in another room.

I did not have the music turned up very loud.

I had to return that amp and wait for about another 20 years to own one, used and not too bad looking.

It is hard to convey to another person the subtle but expensive sound improvements.

Many a person has less than the power of the Crown but once you listen and feel the new music, it is difficult to go back to a lower powered amp.

I'm certain this has caused more than one divorce. LOL

You don't fight over the kid's custody, you fight over the stereo. LOL

If you own AR-4X's and are really happy, listening to AR-LST's, etc, is just a tease.

[Guest classic carl]

Nice to see someone else appreciate a Crown DC-300A amp.

The biggest difference was the deep, really deep, gut massaging bass I felt in another room.

Hi Dan,

Yeah, the bass is amazing, to say the least. I've been listening to all of my favorite bass players, Stanley Clarke, Jaco Pastorius, Chris Squire and any bands that they played with. I've been hearing things on these recordings and many others, that I never heard before.

There have been several DC-300A's on that auction site recently. None as clean as the one I bought locally, but not as expensive either. I was originally looking for a Pioneer SPEC 4, but shied away because of the asking prices. I'm glad that I bought the Crown instead. It was about a third less than what these SPEC 4's were going for.

[Carlspeak]

Hi Dan,

Yeah, the bass is amazing, to say the least. I've been listening to all of my favorite bass players, Stanley Clarke, Jaco Pastorius, Chris Squire and any bands that they played with. I've been hearing things on these recordings and many others, that I never heard before.

There have been several DC-300A's on that auction site recently. None as clean as the one I bought locally, but not as expensive either. I was originally looking for a Pioneer SPEC 4, but shied away because of the asking prices. I'm glad that I bought the Crown instead. It was about a third less than what these SPEC 4's were going for.

Got anything by Dean Peer? If not, you should.