New Advent Loudspeaker

[Guest retsoo]

Greetings..I'm new to the forum and have a few questions regarding "The New Advent Loudpeaker". I have an opportunity to purchase a mint pair of these from my neighbour. They come complete with original boxes, all literature, walnut veneer, real walnut trim. Are these an updated version of the "large" or "small" advents. Literature was dated 1977. Dimensions are 14 1/8" X 26" X 11 1/2" deep, weight is 47 lbs. What would be a realistic purchase price???? Speakers are all original, foam has not been replaced and I'll have a chance to check that out tomorrow.

Thanks and Regards

Fred

[Doug G.]

They are an update of the original Advent (large) Loudspeaker. Advent used ferro-fluid tweeters in these and an all-metal frame woofer. The woofer position was moved to the middle of the speaker board. Both driver cones were effectively moved back. The crossover frequency was changed from 1000 Hz. to 1500 Hz.

As to price, hard to say. If the surrounds are still in good shape (unlikely if they are original) and the cabinets are wonderful, they go for upwards of around $200 on ebay. I've even seen some go for around $300.

If the surrounds are bad, around $100.

Maybe your neighbor will give you a good deal :^)

Doug

Oh yeah, welcome to the forum.

[Guest retsoo]

Thanks for your input Doug. As expected, the surrounds are shot but picked them up for $150 including a mint Dual 504 turntable and Technics SA-300 receiver. The neighbour is very Ebay savy and knew the prices and wasn't willing to split up the set either.

[Guest retsoo]

Now that I have these, what is recommended for cleaning/protecting the walnut veneer and trim? Would a furniture wax which contains carnuba wax do the job? Thanks

[Doug G.]

You got a great deal, Fred. With the TT and receiver thrown in, it was easily worth 150 bucks.

As far as finish care, I don't really like wax unless the wood has been varnished. I believe the Advent cabinets were oiled and that's what I would use. I haven't had to do anything to mine yet since they were real nice when I got them but I have used lemon oil on other previously oiled surfaces and it works well.

You do have to reapply it once in a while.

A more permanent finish would be a Tung oil varnish. You can apply as many coats as you wish to get it to the lustre you desire. It's also nice becuse you just apply it with a cloth like a stain.

My father-in-law and I used Tung oil on a black walnut grandfather clock case in 1977 and it still looks beautiful to this day.

You can get this in any hardware store.

Doug

[Guest retsoo]

I received my new surrounds today from Simply Speakers. Comparing the new surrounds to the existing ones, the round part that sticks up and allows the speaker cone to move in and out ( not sure what you call this part) appears to be about 1/8" smaller on the outside diameter and also does not look to be as deep as the original. Did I receive the wrong kit or is this to be expected? Before I even think of installing this kit, just want to make sure if this is right. Any input greatly appreciated.

Fred

[Doug G.]

Hi Fred,

The part of the surround you are referring to is commonly called the "roll."

It sounds like you probably received the correct kit as far as Simply Speakers is concerned. Most of them out there have a smaller roll (12 - 14mm) than the originals (about 17mm). RSSounds has surrounds that are most like the originals (in fact, many say are identical).

These are what I used on my last refoam and they are really good. The roll fills the entire space between the edge of the cone and the inner diameter of the masonite ring. The foam is relatively thin and very flexible.

I believe that the flexibility of the roll is by far the most important aspect and maybe not so much the roll diameter. This is because the roll diameter really only comes into play if you are going to drive the speakers to their limits. At lower volumes, the smaller diameter roll, if flexible enough, will probably be fine.

So check the thickness and flexibility of your surrounds. There should be very little resistance if you press on the convex side of the roll. If you feel a considerable kind of "rubberiness", it is almost certain that the roll will restrict the cone movement.

I have never done technical studies on the effect of different surrounds on the free air resonance of the woofers, but others have and they report that the larger and more flexible roll definitely lowers the resonance frequency, which is good.

Better to have surrounds that you know are going to be correct and let the woofers work like they should.

Doug

[Guest retsoo]

Hi Doug and thanks for the update. You gave the perfect description of Simply Speakers surrounds. The roll is exactly as described. Just using a metric tape measure, the surrounds are about 1 mm thick. As far as resistance, not quite sure what you mean. If I press down on the roll, the sides start to spread out and the roll starts to flatten with very little resistance. This is correct??? If you hold the edges of the surround and not allow the roll to flatten, then there is RESISTANCE.

Fred

[Guest retsoo]

I sent an email to Simply with regards to the size of their surrounds, here is there reply:

These new surrounds are made this way for enhanced life and performance.

They work great!

Sounds like an ad for Viagra to me!!!!

Fred

[Doug G.]

Of course, any vendor is going to claim that their product is the correct one. However, I have seen pictures of woofers refoamed with Simply Speaker surrounds and the roll seemed to look very small to me.

This, of course, is my opinion.

It is kind of hard to make it clear what is meant by the surround being easy to deflect but a good one should give easily when pushed with a finger and when mounted, the woofer cone (with the woofer out of the cabinet) should be easy to push in, almost as if the surround wasn't even there.

Of the eight advent woofers I have, I did 2 of them with RSSounds surrounds and these are the best. I did 2 with surrounds from Woofer Repair and these aren't quite as good but I think they are acceptable. 2 others had been refoamed before I bought the speakers and seem to be similar to the Woofer Repair surrounds.

I do have 2 all metal woofers and the surrounds on these 2 are very bad. Small rolls and very stiff. The cell structure is also very closed looking, imparting a shiny surface to the surrounds instead

of the cells being visible. I don't know what brand these are as they were also done before I bought them.

I personally don't like inferior surrounds being sold as "correct" simply because they happen to fit. The acoustic suspension principle depends on the woofer cone being able to move very freely as the air trapped in the cabinet is the restoring force to the cone rather than the mechanical surround. This, after all, is what Vilchur and Kloss were after; eliminating the restrictions placed on the woofer cone by the surround. The result is greater lower freequency extension with less distortion.

Doug

[Guest retsoo]

After reading the thread just started by Ed with regards to refoaming, I'm still not sure I have the correct surrounds I received from Simply Speakers. A couple of replies mention George and Allison on Ebay selling surrounds. I checked on Ebay and asked them a question with regards to size of new surround. Since mine are the new advent all metal woofers, I specifically asked the question of new size compared to original size. Here is the reply from George:

"The surrounds I stock for both the Large Advent woofers with the masonite rings and the all metal frames are made specifically for those woofers.

I just compared them both to the original surrounds on the woofers I have in my shop and they are the same.

The roll for the woofers with the masonite rings measures 5/8-inches wide and the roll for the woofers with the all metal frame measures 11/16-inches wide."

So, George is saying there are two different roll sizes?????? Metal or masonite? Is this correct?? I haven't read anywhere in this forum that mentions this. I measured my old surrounds again and they are definitely closer to 11/16" than the new surrounds which are close to 5/8". Thanks again for any input.

[Guest One-Shot Scot]

>After reading the thread just started by Ed with regards to

>refoaming, I'm still not sure I have the correct surrounds I

>received from Simply Speakers. A couple of replies mention

>George and Allison on Ebay selling surrounds. I checked on

>Ebay and asked them a question with regards to size of new

>surround. Since mine are the new advent all metal woofers, I

>specifically asked the question of new size compared to

>original size. Here is the reply from George:

>

>"The surrounds I stock for both the Large Advent woofers

>with the masonite rings and the all metal frames are made

>specifically for those woofers.

>

>I just compared them both to the original surrounds on the

>woofers I have in my shop and they are the same.

>

>The roll for the woofers with the masonite rings measures

>5/8-inches wide and the roll for the woofers with the all

>metal frame measures 11/16-inches wide."

>

>So, George is saying there are two different roll sizes??????

>Metal or masonite? Is this correct?? I haven't read anywhere

>in this forum that mentions this. I measured my old surrounds

>again and they are definitely closer to 11/16" than the

>new surrounds which are close to 5/8". Thanks again for

>any input.

I can't speak for George (or Allison or Simply Speakers, for that matter) but Parts Express has two different large Advent woofer repair kits. One is a "SURROUND KIT FOR 12" ADVENT w/FIBER RING"

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.c...260-955&scqty=1

and the other is a "SURROUND KIT FOR 10" ADVENT STEEL FRAME."

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.c...260-953&scqty=1

You can call Parts Express and see if they will measure the roll on each type of surround. I have always found them to be very helpful and their phone number is at the top-left side of the page.

[Carlspeak]

>After reading the thread just started by Ed with regards to

>refoaming, I'm still not sure I have the correct surrounds I

>received from Simply Speakers. A couple of replies mention

>George and Allison on Ebay selling surrounds. I checked on

>Ebay and asked them a question with regards to size of new

>surround. Since mine are the new advent all metal woofers, I

>specifically asked the question of new size compared to

>original size. Here is the reply from George:

>

>"The surrounds I stock for both the Large Advent woofers

>with the masonite rings and the all metal frames are made

>specifically for those woofers.

>

>I just compared them both to the original surrounds on the

>woofers I have in my shop and they are the same.

>

>The roll for the woofers with the masonite rings measures

>5/8-inches wide and the roll for the woofers with the all

>metal frame measures 11/16-inches wide."

>

>So, George is saying there are two different roll sizes??????

>Metal or masonite? Is this correct?? I haven't read anywhere

>in this forum that mentions this. I measured my old surrounds

>again and they are definitely closer to 11/16" than the

>new surrounds which are close to 5/8". Thanks again for

>any input.

Just comparing roll sizes isn't the whole story. This assumes the foam is identical in both. It may not be. You could have equal performance with a slightly smaller roll if the foam is either thinner or more compliant.

I have done a number of refoam jobs on both types of Advents under discussion and have had no complaints. I don't sell kits but stand ready to off my services.

Remember, it's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

[Guest retsoo]

I decided not to use the Simply Speakers surrounds, they were just to far off in size compared to the originals. I ordered another set from George Wiltsie (geoaliwil on Ebay), just got them today due to slow post office. I can't believe the difference in the two surrounds, George's is identical to what is in my new advents. The simply speaker surround doesn't even come close. With all the microscopic analysis that goes on in this forum, I can't understand why roll size is so trivial. To me it would seem that the closer you get to the original with replacement parts, the closer you'll be to the original sound. I would say that George's kit is more complete, comes with the shims for the coil and very specific instructions on how to repair the surrounds. Simply speakers does not have you shim the coil, just go by feel! George's kit was also a lot less expensive. I have a picture of the two surrounds, Simply on the left, George on the right.

[dynaco_dan]

Hi Fred;

Thank you for sharing this information and great photo with us.

[Guest retsoo]

I'm in the process of replacing the surrounds, I noticed that the original surrounds are glued to the back of the cone on the inside part of the surround. Can the new surrounds be glued to the front of the cone? Seems kind of awkward to glue them on the back. Thanks.

Fred

[Carlspeak]

>I'm in the process of replacing the surrounds, I noticed that

>the original surrounds are glued to the back of the cone on

>the inside part of the surround. Can the new surrounds be

>glued to the front of the cone? Seems kind of awkward to glue

>them on the back. Thanks.

>

>Fred

I recommend not gluing them to the top of the cone. Stick with the backside. In that way the planar alignment of the cone, spider and surround will remain as designed. Gluing to the top will alter this.

It's not hard to glue to the backside. Just make sure the cone is lifted a bit when you install the surround. It makes it easier to get it around the cone OD.

Oh yeah, don't forget to use shims. Despite what kit and surround sellers say, shims will ensure the air gap remains uniform.

Remember, it's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

[Guest retsoo]

Thanks very much Carl, I plan on using the shims provided in the kit.

Fred

[Pete B]

I agree with you completely, I have a pair of New Advent woofers

that I'm told were done by one of the highly respected pro

reconers. The dust caps are wrong, Fs is well over 20 Hz, woofers

done with RSSOUND foam were around 18 Hz Fs.

However they look fantastic as the cones were reinked.

I prefer not to shim, and rather test for rub by pressing

the cone, centered and off center, in order to preserve the

original dust cap. I prefer to cut and reglue the original

cap if it must come off. I prefer the closest to original

foam, and have had excellent results with RSSOUND.

>I decided not to use the Simply Speakers surrounds, they were

>just to far off in size compared to the originals. I ordered

>another set from George Wiltsie (geoaliwil on Ebay), just got

>them today due to slow post office. I can't believe the

>difference in the two surrounds, George's is identical to what

>is in my new advents. The simply speaker surround doesn't even

>come close. With all the microscopic analysis that goes on in

>this forum, I can't understand why roll size is so trivial. To

>me it would seem that the closer you get to the original with

>replacement parts, the closer you'll be to the original sound.

>I would say that George's kit is more complete, comes with the

>shims for the coil and very specific instructions on how to

>repair the surrounds. Simply speakers does not have you shim

>the coil, just go by feel! George's kit was also a lot less

>expensive. I have a picture of the two surrounds, Simply on

>the left, George on the right.

[Guest retsoo]

The speakers are finished, simply amazing sound, as my daughter would say, "sweet". Would like to thank everyone for their input and advice on this, great to have a forum for the vintage stuff. If anyone has an interest in the Simply Speaker surrounds, I'm going to give them away for the cost of postage, they're just going to gather dust here. Email me if you want them.