Model 5 question

[Guest JF]

Hello,

I'm a true novice to KLH and the vintage speaker world in general. I have an opportunity to purchase a set of model 5's for a reasonable price (I think). I searched and read all the model 5 posts on this site which appears to have the lion share of information to say the least.

So, can someone sum up what's special about older speakers and anything on the model 5 specifically? Is it worth restoring the speaker if, as I've read, the crossover needs work or the capacitors need replacing? It seems there are true electrical gurus around here, if I don't have that knowledge is this a worth while investment?

Thanks! I look forward to learning from everyone here.

[soundminded]

>Hello,

>I'm a true novice to KLH and the vintage speaker world in

>general. I have an opportunity to purchase a set of model 5's

>for a reasonable price (I think). I searched and read all the

>model 5 posts on this site which appears to have the lion

>share of information to say the least.

>

>So, can someone sum up what's special about older speakers and

>anything on the model 5 specifically? Is it worth restoring

>the speaker if, as I've read, the crossover needs work or the

>capacitors need replacing? It seems there are true electrical

>gurus around here, if I don't have that knowledge is this a

>worth while investment?

>

>Thanks! I look forward to learning from everyone here.

All of the speakers we discuss here regardless of price had one goal in mind and that was to reproduce serious music as accurately as possible (within price limitiations of course.) This means mostly classical music and jazz but could include other genres too. They were not intended to play loud rock music at ear shattering levels and those who try to use them that way have often severely damaged them. One fact is that in general, they were not quite as robust as some of their modern day counterparts which is not to say they are fragile by a long shot but most couldn't handle vast amounts of power. They were also not designed to produce the thin shrill sound with pinpoint imaging at one listening location many audiophiles today like. Even performing properly, they may come off as disappointments in rapid fire direct comparisons with newer models. BUT....to experienced listeners familiar with the sound of live acoustic instruments, over the long term, they will give far greater satisfaction than many newer products which at first seem more attractive. That is why many of us still prize them highly and prefer them over newer equipment. I don't want to imply that they can't play loudly, but that is not their chief design goal and they are not the best choice for a loud party in your basement. Most including KLH model 5 are acoustic suspension types which allows them to reproduce very low frequencies with very little distortion. They do benefit from today's higher powered amplifiers and can be further improved with knowledgable use of a graphic equalizer. They often do not show their best stuff with mediocre home theater receivers but are better suited to high quality amplifiers including those incorporated in vintage receivers from fine manufacturers like Marantz and Pioneer back in the 1980s. They were built in an era when amplifiers over 60 watts per channel were a rarity and 40 wpc or less was more common.

KLH model 5 was IMO without a doubt the best bookshelf speaker KLH ever built. Better than the Model 6 and just a notch or so below the similar model 12 which came in a larger enclosure with a more elaborate crossover network, Model 5 boasted an improved heavier duty 12" woofer than the model 6, two of its excellent 5" full range drivers used in many of its smaller all in one systems and table radios they reproduce the midrange here, and the same unique and excellent tweeter used in model 6 and others. Considering this speaker is about 40 years old, it is relatively easy to restore. The woofers should be easy to remove to gain access to the crossoer network. Replacement of capacitors is very highly recommended. Also, while the cloth woofer surrounds should not have deteriorated the way foam usually does, it may have to be resealed with a material like XL49 available from Orange County Speaker company. A $10 bottle should be enough for a pair. The midrange and tweeter controls are switches, not potentiometers so they don't have the same problems AR speakers do in that regard. I'd guess a pair of KLH model 5s in good condition should sell on E-bay for about $200 to $300 plus shipping. If this is the kind of equipment which would be of interest to you, KLH model 5 is an excellent choice. If it is not, you would probably be happier persuing other options. Frankly, this type of equipment is not everyone's cup of tea.

[dynaco_dan]

>Hello,

>I'm a true novice to KLH and the vintage speaker world in

>general. I have an opportunity to purchase a set of model 5's

>for a reasonable price (I think). I searched and read all the

>model 5 posts on this site which appears to have the lion

>share of information to say the least.

>

>So, can someone sum up what's special about older speakers and

>anything on the model 5 specifically? Is it worth restoring

>the speaker if, as I've read, the crossover needs work or the

>capacitors need replacing? It seems there are true electrical

>gurus around here, if I don't have that knowledge is this a

>worth while investment?

>

>Thanks! I look forward to learning from everyone here.

Hi Jon;

In my opinion the KLH Fives are about even with the AR-5's sound output.

This is not from me listening or owning them but from all that I have read over the decades.

The AR-5's are a step below the AR-3A's and the KLH Five are a step below the KLH Twelves.

The AR-3A and KLH Twelve were considered, among the very best available speakers, in their day.

The KLH Fives have the same woofer as the Models 12 and 23, cone weight, 23 - 25 grams +/-.

They also have the same 2 mids, also was used as fullrange drivers for many KLH products, and tweeter, also used for many KLH speaker systems, as the KLH Twelve.

The Five will have a slightly less deep bass response with the enclosure being quite a bit smaller, same woofer though, than the Twelve.

A much higher WAF than the huge Twelves, possibly adaptable to a large strong shelf, but probably better suited on stands.

The crossover is complex and inboard, the Twelves crossover is complex and outboard with an umbilical cord.

The switches could probably use a shot of Caigs DeOxit or equal and the caps may need to be replaced.

I wouldn't do this unless absolutely needed, as the cost is not cheap, nor easy for an amatuer, and there will be capacitor sources mentioned here, I am sure.

There always is a chance of damaging a component or driver during a tuneup.

Others that own or have owned the KLH Fives, may wish to add to this topic.

Consider fusing the speakers.

I usually write down the selling prices on ebay for speakers that interest me, I do not know what a good price is but less than $150.00 a pair is probably a good price for a pair in a bevelled walnut cabinet in near new condition.

The parts tally might be 2 wfrs $50.00 - 4 mids $40.00 - 2 tweeters $30.00 plus cabinet plus crossover, if pieced together.

Always seems to lots of raw used KLH drivers for sale on ebay, for one possible source.

The woofers need a closer looksee because they are all the same diameter but different weights, different magnets, making some unsuitable for the Fives.

[Andy]

If you find the Model fives offered for sale are piced a bit high, a nice speaker to fiddle around with until a pair of Fives comes your way is the KLH Model Twenty Three which was just below the Five in the modsel lineup....it has the same woofer & tweeter as the Model Five and it's cabinet is the same large size. The Twenty Three's often sell for much less then the Fives, often for $50-$100 a pair these days (a sleeper in the KLH lineup). Back in 1970, they cost about $165 each, almost as much as the Model Five.

I always thought the 23'soundeed darn near as good as the 5's...but can handle a bit less power without the mid-ranges.

Andy

[Guest JF]

Thanks all. No, these speakers are not for partying - those days are long past (with occasional rare exceptions!). I really just want a good quality speaker.

I've studied the schematics and researched capacitors but I'm a little nervous working on these speakers with no experience. If I go the audio shop route, how much should I expect to pay to get these speakers tuned up?

Also, were KLH's offered with speaker stands? (the seller claims to have original stands for sale as well).

[dynaco_dan]

Hi there;

A nice looking pair just sold for $202.50 on ebay.

Certainly looked nice but you could not see all sides and top and bottoms.

They certainly are not equal to AR-3's, but are still a wonderful system on their own.

[day67]

Hi, JF. I am also a novice-come-lately and became interested in the Model 5's while trying to build a modest "vintage" system. My frame of reference was a KLH system I bought way back in 1972 brand new (Model 6's).

I Picked the Model 5's up on ebay at a very reasonable price only to find the woofers were from a model 6. This is where I discovered through this forum that the Model 5's have a number value marked on the cones -- a learning process for sure. Did get the correct pair and at least they now had all the correct parts.....

I did venture into having the crossovers restored (the model 5's are a bit more expensive to restore that others) and have been very pleased with the performance. I won't likely get my investment back but I found it worth it. The learning process and the end result have both been a pleasure.

Prices on ebay have ranged anywhere from $150. up to nearly $400. and seems to vary greatly.

Anyway, this is a great forum especially for those of us new to the vintage KLH line. Hope you enjoy it as much as I have!

[dynaco_dan]

>If you find the Model fives offered for sale are piced a bit

>high, a nice speaker to fiddle around with until a pair of

>Fives comes your way is the KLH Model Twenty Three which was

>just below the Five in the modsel lineup....it has the same

>woofer & tweeter as the Model Five and it's cabinet is the

>same large size. The Twenty Three's often sell for much less

>then the Fives, often for $50-$100 a pair these days (a

>sleeper in the KLH lineup). Back in 1970, they cost about $165

>each, almost as much as the Model Five.

>

>I always thought the 23'soundeed darn near as good as the

>5's...but can handle a bit less power without the mid-ranges.

>

>Andy

Hi JF;

Andy's advice may also parallel AR-2X's, with a 10" alnico magnet woofer, later a ceramic magnet woofer, and 3 1/2" cone tweeter and later, a 2 1/2" cone tweeter.

Not KLH, but family related.

Certainly the KLH Fives are well worth your consideration.

Hopefully the cabinets are minty and they work without any effort on your part.

Don't just buy them and start gutting them, if they work ok.

I have KLH Twelves now, bought them about 10 years ago, I would not have bought them because of their huge size way back when they were newly available.

Like having a 23" tv console on the floor, but two of them.

Andy's advice for the KLH Twenty-Three's is very good advice, I have never heard them, considering their fairly good availablity and much lower price.

I am certain that someone with the Fives and Twenty-Three's would probably say go for the Fives, for the added mid-range output.

Another option might be to buy the Twenty-Three's and add a homemade MicroStatic Array type tweeter cabinet enclosure sitting on top of them with KLH mids only.

This would be a labour of love though, mids about $10 - $15.00 each, plus cap, switch and coil per side and cabinet.

Could even have 4 drivers per side, sort of a Janszen 1-30 mode.

Just a thought.

ADD-ON

Way back when, my big bros wanted AR-3A's in the worst way.

He bought AR-4X's, traded them up to AR-2AX's, then traded them up to AR-5's in pine finish.

He then walnut veneered them, beautifully, I must say.

Went and sold them and then bought, Dynaco A-25's.

Returned them after 1/2 hour of using them, had nothing nice to say about them, still even to this day.

He was meszmerized by Stereophiles, J Gordon Holt's, rave review of the A-25.

He then borrowed my AR-4X's and ordered AR-3A's in walnut veneer.

He had the AR-3A's for a period then, AR-LST's came out and there went the AR-3A's and in comes the LST's.

He lived with the LST's for a period, then they went out the door and in came KEF 107's.

That is all she wrote.

Each upgrade he lost some money, except for the AR-5's.

Last week he said that the AR-2AX's were the best ones in his opinion.

You are probably only going to buy one more major speaker purchase in your life, make it count, get what you dream about.

[Guest JF]

So it's 24-26 on the cones? I'll have to double check that.

I still haven't picked up the speakers yet probably later this week. I'll report back and post some pictures if I can.

[Guest tom_in_montana]

I just stumbled onto your post and was wondering if you had aquired the model 5s. I have had a pair since the early '70s and always liked their sound. By the '90s, they had lost a lot of brilliance in the treble and the bass was muddy and the overall sound had lost definition. At that time I replaced the capacitors in the crossivers which made a dramatic improvement. Lately I have purchased a few more pairs to upgrade and sell to freinds. This time I replaced capactiors and resistors with low noise equivelants and silver plated copper wire interconnecting and that has produced speakers which exceed the sound quality of the original pair. Treble is open and clear, bass is strong and thrillingly low. Very nice believeable sound. I would recommend doing this with any 40 year old KLH speaker. I gives them a new lease on life. Its not too difficult to replace the components in kind with the old style aluminum frame taking about 10 hours per and the newer circuit board version about 6 Hrs Per speaker. Good Luck.

Tom

[JKent]

JF

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Certainly there is something to be said for replacing 40-year-old caps. And when I rebuilt my KLH 17s I found the old caps had exploded! But you don't "have to" rebuild the crossovers. If the speakers sound good--enjoy them!

OTOH, rebuilding xovers is not hard. If you know how to use a soldering iron and a screwdriver, you don't need to know much about electronics. Just buy some new caps from Parts Express, Madisound, whatever, in the same values as the old ones and replace the old caps. Resistors last longer, but replace those, too if you want. Part of the fun of vintage speakers is doing it yourself!

This thread shows before/after pictures of a Model 12 xover I did. I used inexpensive electrolytics, but you could use fancy caps if you prefer. The 12 was easier to work on because the xover is in a separate outboard box, but it's generally similar. The only thing that tricked me as a non-techie, was one of the double caps, that actually had both leads attached to the same point--I could have used one cap of double the value. Oh well. Live and learn. Guess that's where a schematic comes in handy ;-)

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/dcbo...=2&topic_page=1

Kent