AR-LST: Placement

[Guest pbda]

I'll soon be collecting my LSTs from Larry (vintage-ar) who is refurbishing this pair of speakers that I bought early this Summer. There was a fair amount of work involved: Four tweeter replacements, a midrange replacement, some capacitor replacement, refoaming, cabinet refinishing and new grille cloth.

I would be very grateful for folks' views on how to place these speakers in a room: Should they be raised (I assume yes, since putting my 3a's on stands massively improved the sound), and if so, how high? Should they be placed with their backs flat against the wall, or away from the wall. Is it best practice to angle them inwards (as with most box speakers) or not?

I appreciate that the right answer is "whatever sounds best", but I would be grateful to hear the body of opinion here first. Many thanks.

[frankmarsi]

I can say this; my LST's sound better on twenty inch stands as compared to the 14 inches I had them on, and yes dependent on the room I've 'toed' mine in a little bit, but seeing how these boxes are designed, I don't think that made any difference at all- it's obvious, but again room dependent. I've surfed the web enough seeing how some people have these boxes sitting almost 1/3 away from rear walls. For me I'm using mine one to two feet away from the rear wall and I like it, also the room I'm using them is actually too small to go 1/3 into the room. This 'smallish' room causes much havoc with reflections bouncing all over the place leading one to feel these 4 stacked LST's are too much for the room, and they clearly are, but I'm very stubborn about forcing issues like this. I'm awaiting moving into a bigger listening room at some point, then I'll have different information all together. Funny thing is these sure look like they are supposed to be close to a wall contrary to what I mostly see being done.

On another note I'd like to hear your opinion on how "vintageAR" finished your speakers and your feeling about the work done and how they're sounding most of all.

FM

[soundminded]

The LST is intended to be mounted hanging on a wall at ear level, presumably seated ear level. This means their backs should be flush with the wall. Do not place them too close to a side wall. I think most speakers benefit from being in symetrical rooms and should be mounted on the short wall if the room is rectangular. I'd say they should be at least two feet from the side walls. The speaker would probably benefit from being in a room at least 250 to 300 square feet. In most homes this means a living room, family room, music room or large basement playroom. These speakers will benefit from lots of available power, I'd say about 100 wpc or more from a good quality amplifier which is stable with four ohm loads or less and has a power bandwidth and frequency response flat to 20 hz. Properly installed and powered with a good source, they should provide excellent listening throughout most of the listening room, you will not have to sit where X marks the spot due to their remarkably wide high frequency dispersion characteristics, possibly among the best ever offered in a commercially available loudspeaker system.

[dynaco_dan]

>The LST is intended to be mounted hanging on a wall at ear

>level, presumably seated ear level. This means their backs

>should be flush with the wall.

I will agree that they should be close to a wall, but not touching it.

With the tweeters at ear level when you sitting up in a normal listening chair is about as ideal as you can get.

Do not place them too close to

>a side wall.

Absolutely correct.

Also away from open doorways.

I think most speakers benefit from being in

>symetrical rooms and should be mounted on the short wall if

>the room is rectangular. I'd say they should be at least two

>feet from the side walls.

I feel they should be along the longer wall.

Each owner will need to decide on actual placement, just not on the floor.

The speaker would probably benefit

>from being in a room at least 250 to 300 square feet. In most

>homes this means a living room, family room, music room or

>large basement playroom.

The worst possible room to have speakers in are a room 8' high x 16' wide and 24' deep.

Too much sound cancellation will take place if they are close to those numbers.

An 8' high room with a 12' - 14' width and 22' - 26' length would be better.

You want to try to have the numbers not be 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, etc of each other.

In other words an irregular room is best.

These speakers will benefit from

>lots of available power, I'd say about 100 wpc or more from a

>good quality amplifier which is

stable

A very important amplifier characteristic, stablily.

The AR-LST places a very difficult load on the amplification equipment, much more than most all other speaker systems, ever made.

with four ohm loads or

>less and has a power bandwidth and frequency response flat to

>20 hz.

My own experience is, the more clean power, the better they sound.

One might consider 100 watts per channel to be adequate.

I did enjoy using my AR amp which was, I thought, adequate.

Rated at 60 watts @ 4 ohms, 50 watts @ 8 ohms and 35 watts per channel @ 16 ohms, even though they tested out at higher outputs.

More accurately, at least 100 watts per channel from 20 - 20,000 Hz 2 ohms to 40 ohms load is needed.

This eliminates a lot of amps from the race.

An old classic Phase Linear 700B might be the AR-LST amp of choice as far as drive goes.

I had several opportunities to hear this combination, very nice, left a heart thumping impression.

The AR-LST's woofers impedance climbs to about 35 - 40 ohms and deserves the finest clean power amp available, with a high damping factor, for superb tight bass.

This pretty well leaves tube amps out of the picture for driving these speakers.

Properly installed and powered with a good source, you will hear all the good recordings and all of the faults as well, shows up faults other speakers cannot seem to reproduce.

>they should provide excellent listening throughout most of the

>listening room, you will not have to sit where X marks the

>spot due to their remarkably wide high frequency dispersion

>characteristics, possibly among the best ever offered in a

>commercially available loudspeaker system.

Even with all of its warts, the AR-LST is a speaker system, if used with the very finest of preceding equipment and sound source will give any speaker system, up to several hundred thousand dollars, a run for their money.

After all of this they are not perfect, but really close.

Were you buying new stock tweeters or old used OEM AR tweeters?

[Guest pbda]

Many thanks for these very useful comments. My current listening room is woefully unsuited for proper placement, but that will change in time.

I'll be powering these with my Marantz 2600, which is very comfortable with my 3a's and which should have ample power to handle the LSTs.

Vern, part of the reason it took a while to complete the refurbishment was because Larry had to source vintage tweeters. I opted not to use the modern replacement tweeters.

I'll report back once I've got these up and running.

[dynaco_dan]

>Many thanks for these very useful comments. My current

>listening room is woefully unsuited for proper placement, but

>that will change in time.

>

>I'll be powering these with my Marantz 2600, which is very

>comfortable with my 3a's and which should have ample power to

>handle the LSTs.

>

>Vern, part of the reason it took a while to complete the

>refurbishment was because Larry had to source vintage

>tweeters. I opted not to use the modern replacement

>tweeters.

>

>I'll report back once I've got these up and running.

Hi Peter;

As I mentioned, final room placement is the owners choice.

There may not be very many members that do have a, "perfect room", size wise.

Most all of us has compromised with the amplifier power output actually needed.

Lest we forget, WAF, must not be overlooked.

My comment about the AR amp and it appearing to be really underpowered, was tongue in cheek, it still made me smile irregardless.

If I did not have an opportunity of a weekend loaner of a Crown DC-300A and IC-150 I would not be able to make a comparison and comment of any value.

My normal system uses a Crown DC-300A and IC-150 but a Double Dyna 400 is alternated once in a while.

I do not listen to the system loud or blow fuses.

[Guest george w]

I'll soon be collecting my LSTs from Larry (vintage-ar) who is refurbishing this pair of speakers that I bought early this Summer. There was a fair amount of work involved: Four tweeter replacements, a midrange replacement, some capacitor replacement, refoaming, cabinet refinishing and new grille cloth.

I would be very grateful for folks' views on how to place these speakers in a room: Should they be raised (I assume yes, since putting my 3a's on stands massively improved the sound), and if so, how high? Should they be placed with their backs flat against the wall, or away from the wall. Is it best practice to angle them inwards (as with most box speakers) or not?

I appreciate that the right answer is "whatever sounds best", but I would be grateful to hear the body of opinion here first. Many thanks.

The LST's can be used in a variety of positions and those positions can be dialed in by the spectral balance control. Try to locate an original LSt manual. I've found that these work best about 24" from the floor and not more than 10 ft. apart. They can be toed in to focus to a centered listening position but that's up to you. A perfect base for the LST's is a second pair of LST's ! Start with the spectral balance switch in position 2. You may also want to increase the fuses to FNM 2 1/2's. If you're uisng these in a single family home power them with the largest, highest powered amp you can find.

[roundhome]

trying to find every thing in here been some changes looking for the LST sheet showing the acoustic reflections bouncing off the walls?

can anyone point me in the right direction with out any reflections

Thanks 

Jim

[frankmarsi]

23 hours ago, roundhome said:

trying to find every thing in here been some changes looking for the LST sheet showing the acoustic reflections bouncing off the walls?

can anyone point me in the right direction with out any reflections

Thanks 

Jim

Hi Jim, regarding LST placement, my set-up was moved to a new location and is not the location I described in the above post from 2007. My present set-up as photographed in 2014 is below.

As shown in the foto below, the new location allowed me to place the speakers where they perform their best, against the front wall. AR-LST's are unique in that they rely on the room's boundaries while at the same time filling the whole room with sound seemingly from all directions. I presume that AR embraced this aspect in their design goals.

I have placed bass traps (not shown in foto below), in the upper corners since and intend to move the speakers slightly closer together maybe by 4 inches on each side as I feel they benefit moving them away from the wall corners. The bass-traps may seem unsightly to some folks but, they do help out with reflections that bounce in the front-wall corners and henceforth 'clean-up' the sound received while offering a bit more transparency by eliminating a little congestion of certain frequencies due to reflections in the upper corners of the room. As many would agree, a little room-tuning is always necessary for best results. I intend to experiment by adding smaller traps in the opposite side of the room's corners at some point. However, before I do, I'm planning on adding new and different furnishings which will alter the sound so, I'll wait until then. Again, all in the effort of achieving accurate sound reproduction.

With LST's one doesn't have to sit in a so called 'sweet-spot' as their sound spreads and fills the whole room pretty much where ever one sits. It's almost presented as a big wave of sound.  I had realized this aspect while setting up a singular set of LST's, the doubling by stacking two sets simply magnified this aspect. They lessen the common effect of left and right channels and because of their doing so, I find it realistic sounding and certainly more satisfying. This is one reason why after listening to the LST's for so many years, I don't see myself returning to speakers that radiate directly at the listener with the usual left and right presentation. The aspect of strong in your face direct sound isn't as over-bearing with LST's as it is with direct single baffle type speakers, while still permitting specific instrument location should the program-material indicate such specificity and location.

This property that LST's are known for also increases the depth and width of the sound-stage.

Because of the LST's wide-spread, almost omni-directional ability, and being accustomed to that, I sometimes find it a little uncomfortable listening to my AR-9's in comparison.

I guess it's what one gets used to and perceives as accurate musical sound. Though, I admit that certain standards should and do exist of which I attempt to approach, it's many years now that I have. I'm not the sort of fellow who simply throws equipment into a room in a hap-hazard fashion and accepts this as being sufficient. That's for the non-cognoscenti of which there are many individuals scattered about the world wide web but it's not me. FM