2Ax rebuild. Help!

[JKent]

Well, I restored my 4x's (new "vintage grille cloth, refinished cabinets, new L-pads, new Zen caps) and was so happy with them I decided to buy a pair of 2ax's I saw on Craig's list. I agreed to buy them sight unseen, since they were just $15 for the pair, but this will be a project! I've checked the library, but looking for more guidance.

The grille cloth seems beyond saving, so I think I'll end up with the same cloth I used on the 4s.

The logo plates are rusted beyond salvage.

The woofers of course need to be re-foamed. Never did that before.

I have not tried to play these--don't expect I'd get much out of them now.

SN are 190942--this has a plywood back, and 191648--with mdf (?) back.

I found this web page, which will give me a start:

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~postr/bapix/AR_2ax.htm

Are the pots in the 2s the same as the ones in the 4s? I may try cleaning theminstead of using the replacement L-pads.

What is the value of the cap? Not sure whether to get Zens again or maybe cheaper Solens.

How can I check the X-Overs?

Any suggestions for authentic looking grille cloth? I can get the logo plates on eBay.

What about the foam surround kit? A lot of people seem to sell them.

Any opinion on filling the veneer chip (it's on the face of course)? I could use Plastic wood, mix up a paste of walnut sawdust and glue, or try to find a small amount of veneer and fashion a patch to fit in like a jigsaw puzzle (not sure how well that would work).

Any and all advice welcome.

thanks

[dynaco_dan]

>Well, I restored my 4x's (new "vintage grille cloth,

>refinished cabinets, new L-pads, new Zen caps) and was so

>happy with them I decided to buy a pair of 2ax's I saw on

>Craig's list. I agreed to buy them sight unseen, since they

>were just $15 for the pair, but this will be a project! I've

>checked the library, but looking for more guidance.

>The grille cloth seems beyond saving, so I think I'll end up

>with the same cloth I used on the 4s.

>The logo plates are rusted beyond salvage.

>The woofers of course need to be re-foamed. Never did that

>before.

>I have not tried to play these--don't expect I'd get much out

>of them now.

>SN are 190942--this has a plywood back, and 191648--with mdf

>(?) back.

>I found this web page, which will give me a start:

>http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~postr/bapix/AR_2ax.htm

>

>Are the pots in the 2s the same as the ones in the 4s? I may

>try cleaning theminstead of using the replacement L-pads.

>What is the value of the cap? Not sure whether to get Zens

>again or maybe cheaper Solens.

>How can I check the X-Overs?

>Any suggestions for authentic looking grille cloth? I can get

>the logo plates on eBay.

>What about the foam surround kit? A lot of people seem to sell

>them.

>Any opinion on filling the veneer chip (it's on the face of

>course)? I could use Plastic wood, mix up a paste of walnut

>sawdust and glue, or try to find a small amount of veneer and

>fashion a patch to fit in like a jigsaw puzzle (not sure how

>well that would work).

>Any and all advice welcome.

>thanks

Hi there;

Congratulations on renovating your AR-4X's.

You seem to be happy with your choice of caps, will the Solens cost you much less?

What is the cost of Zens caps compared to Solen caps?

Great going with $15.00 for the AR-2AX pair, did that include taxes? lol

The $15.00 should just about cover the grille cloths.

The logo should be solid brass, a little Brasso or equivalent and a little elbow grease should bring them back to full glory again.

They used the same 15 ohm 25 watt pots in all of the classics.

Any chance of front and rear photos, please?

There has been several topics regarding dis-assembling the pots and cleaning them.

Good buy.

Good luck.

[JKent]

>Hi there;

>

>Congratulations on renovating your AR-4X's.

>

>You seem to be happy with your choice of caps, will the Solens

>cost you much less?

>

>What is the cost of Zens caps compared to Solen caps?

>

>Great going with $15.00 for the AR-2AX pair, did that include

>taxes? lol

>

>The $15.00 should just about cover the grille cloths.

>

>The logo should be solid brass, a little Brasso or equivalent

>and a little elbow grease should bring them back to full glory

>again.

>

>They used the same 15 ohm 25 watt pots in all of the

>classics.

>

>Any chance of front and rear photos, please?

>

>There has been several topics regarding dis-assembling the

>pots and cleaning them.

>

>Good buy.

>

>Good luck.

>

Hi Vern,

Nice to hear from you again.

I'll post some front & rear photos. I think you are mistaken about the plates--they're really rusty. But I'll scrape them a bit just to be sure. The Zen caps are about $17 each, so they are kind of pricey. And I see that the big square cap on the 2ax (at least the photo I saw on the web) has 3 leads, so that throws me off a bit.

I did clean up the pots from my 4s, so maybe I'll use those in one of the 2s and hope to salvage 2 out of the 4 for the other speaker.

cheers

Kent

[JKent]

PS

Vern, you are probably right about the solid brass plates. Apparently mine fell off, leaving just the rusty steel backing plate :-(

[dynaco_dan]

>PS

>Vern, you are probably right about the solid brass plates.

>Apparently mine fell off, leaving just the rusty steel backing

>plate :-(

>

Hi again;

Do keep the existing plates fastened until you can replace them or not.

I see on ebay AR-vintage is selling replica plates/logos now for several models of AR classic speakers, AR-2AX, AR-5, AR-6 and AR-3A.

It appears they are a more durable finish with gold in the alloy to reduce oxidation and they use sticky backing rather than a screw fastener.

There is also a ebay seller offering a vinyl skinned brass replica of just the older AR logo and this uses a sticky backing rather than the screw as well.

Without the screw, it can be also used on AR turntables.

You have a few options now should you choose to replace the incomplete logo.

In order of prorities, I would leave the logo's until the very last, sound is more important than sight.

Good luck.

[JKent]

so any advice on the caps? Apparently I need 2 caps per speaker. The original caps have three (3) leads (green, black and blue). The caps are marked:

Industrial Condenser Corp.

Chicago, Ill. U.S.A.

5203

GREEN--6 MFD. 50 V.D.C.

BLACK--4 MFD 50 V.D.C.

BLUE--COMMON

It looks like people who replace these use one 6uF cap and one 4uF. However, most of the caps I see for sale are not 50 volts--they are more like 400. Does that matter? Also--I read in another thread that the exact value is not critical (3.9 uF vs. 4 uF for example).

I have a type 7 coil. Woofers are the type with what looks like masking tape on the magnet.

[dynaco_dan]

>so any advice on the caps? Apparently I need 2 caps per

>speaker. The original caps have three (3) leads (green, black

>and blue). The caps are marked:

>

>Industrial Condenser Corp.

>Chicago, Ill. U.S.A.

>5203

>GREEN--6 MFD. 50 V.D.C.

>BLACK--4 MFD 50 V.D.C.

>BLUE--COMMON

>

>It looks like people who replace these use one 6uF cap and one

>4uF. However, most of the caps I see for sale are not 50

>volts--they are more like 400. Does that matter? Also--I read

>in another thread that the exact value is not critical (3.9 uF

>vs. 4 uF for example).

>

>I have a type 7 coil. Woofers are the type with what looks

>like masking tape on the magnet.

Hi Kent;

I'll leave the best and more accurate capacitor and coil advice to someone more knowledgeble in this area.

There is several great writers to follow up with advice.

As far as voltage ratings are concerned, the minimum to consider should be 100 volts, preferably 200 or more volts, in otherwords the higher the better above 50 volts.

If you had a 4uf cap in the speaker crossover, it was made with a tolerance of 5 - 10 - 20% minus and maybe up to 80% plus so that cap may have been maybe 3.20uf up to 6 - 7uf and still met the capacitor manufacturers specs.

The values usually change with time so these may be higher or lower than when they were new.

If they were 4uf +/- 0% tolerance then they would be still close to 4UF today, maybe.

If you buy a new, Solen, to pick out one recognisable brandname, at 3.9uf you would have to look at the listed tolerance to see what the accepted factory tolerances are for that specific model.

Naturally if you had a capacitor test meter, that you could take with you, when you buy them and you were allowed to test them, you could, if there were several of them, match them close to value.

If we were to buy from a distant dealer, they would need to charge a fee to match them.

If you saw 100 caps in an open box from the same manuafcturers lot number and grabbed two at random they would be closer than if you bought from two different sources for sure.

Matching would be better, but sometimes not practical.

If they were not matched, you and I probably could not hear the difference, but we would know we could do better.

For all its worth 3.9uf may at random be over 4uf or not.

In my opinion, its worth a little more work or money to at least try to do the right thing for the life expectancy of the speakers.

My comments should not to be interpretted to be the, be all or end all of everything.

I am not suggesting anything here but for replacing existing older deteriorated caps, not discovering a new speaker sound technology.

As a side note, I was looking at Ack Supplies website last night, at caps, there was an electrolytic, not a polpropylene Solen type, with a +80% tolerance.

Something to think about.

Good luck.

[Carlspeak]

>so any advice on the caps? Apparently I need 2 caps per

>speaker. The original caps have three (3) leads (green, black

>and blue). The caps are marked:

>

>Industrial Condenser Corp.

>Chicago, Ill. U.S.A.

>5203

>GREEN--6 MFD. 50 V.D.C.

>BLACK--4 MFD 50 V.D.C.

>BLUE--COMMON

>

>It looks like people who replace these use one 6uF cap and one

>4uF. However, most of the caps I see for sale are not 50

>volts--they are more like 400. Does that matter? Also--I read

>in another thread that the exact value is not critical (3.9 uF

>vs. 4 uF for example).

>

>I have a type 7 coil. Woofers are the type with what looks

>like masking tape on the magnet.

You've got a typical, classic AR multifunctional cap there. Cut the three wires close to the original cap and strip each about 1/2 inch. Attach and solder the blue wire to one end of the new 4 and 6 uF caps. Attach and solder the Green wire from the rheostat to the remaining end of the 6 uf cap and do the same with the black & 4 uf cap and you should be in business. Oh, you may also want to secure each cap to the back of the speaker with standard hot melt glue used for crafts to prevent any vibration rattles when you eventually play music. Don't worry, the hot melt glue temp. won't harm the caps. There are some photos on my web site of AR2a xover upgrades for you to see as an example.

http://www.classicloudspeakerservices.com

When your done with everything, hook up the speaker to your stereo and play a pink noise signal at 80-90 dB thru it for 8 to 24 hours. Pick a time when the hissing noise isn't a bother to anyone. This process will smooth out that 'rough edge' sound from brand new caps. Particularly Solens. If you don't have a test disk pink noise track to put on 'repeat', tune your FM tuner between stations and the result is very similar.

Don't be concerned about either the voltage rating of new pp caps or whether or not your new cap's value is off a tenth of a uF or not. It will sound fine.

Remember, it's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

[Guest tgw]

I'm the guy selling the AR emblem reproductions on eBay. While not the same as the AR-2ax rectangular emblems, for $8 including postage for a pair they are better than nothing. I put the velcro on the back and they stick to the grill cloth very nicely.

[JKent]

thanks guys. Carl--I did see the photos on your site, but the added explanation is most helpful.

I may go with the Zen caps again. At these values, they are not that much more than the Solens. I figure maybe $22 for both speakers vs about $11 for the Solens (+ S/H of course). The Zens are 3.9, not 4 uF.

Looking for speaker cloth. I know Carl sells some that is similar to the original and so does Larry at vintage-ar. I'm going to look around local fabric shops first. As I mentioned, the cloth on my 4s was from an eBay dealer, and it looks nice IMO but not authentic (what do you think? pic attached). Unfortunately, that pattern seems to be sold out.

btw--do the mids or tweeters ever go bad? I'm focusing on the woofer, the pots, the caps and the aesthetics but never gave a thought to the mids and tweets.

[Carlspeak]

>thanks guys. Carl--I did see the photos on your site, but the

>added explanation is most helpful.

>I may go with the Zen caps again. At these values, they are

>not that much more than the Solens. I figure maybe $22 for

>both speakers vs about $11 for the Solens (+ S/H of course).

>The Zens are 3.9, not 4 uF.

>Looking for speaker cloth. I know Carl sells some that is

>similar to the original and so does Larry at vintage-ar. I'm

>going to look around local fabric shops first. As I mentioned,

>the cloth on my 4s was from an eBay dealer, and it looks nice

>IMO but not authentic (what do you think? pic attached).

>Unfortunately, that pattern seems to be sold out.

>btw--do the mids or tweeters ever go bad? I'm focusing on the

>woofer, the pots, the caps and the aesthetics but never gave a

>thought to the mids and tweets.

The grill cloth comes up grey looking on my monitor. Is it indeed grey? If so, you can do much better than tnat.

Remember, it's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

[JKent]

>The grill cloth comes up grey looking on my monitor. Is it

>indeed grey? If so, you can do much better than tnat.

>

>Remember, it's all about the music

>

>Carl

>Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

No--it's beige. I may have over-corrected the color in PhotoShop. Here's an untouched pic, but the color's still not right. Actually the color is OK--maybe a little too light. But the texture is off. It does look vintage, just not vintage AR.

Here's another question: Is there any reason not to use AR2 woofers with the cast-aluminum baskets and cloth surrounds instead of re-foaming the 2ax speakers?

thx

[Carlspeak]

>

>>The grill cloth comes up grey looking on my monitor. Is

>it

>>indeed grey? If so, you can do much better than tnat.

>>

>>Remember, it's all about the music

>>

>>Carl

>>Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

>

>No--it's beige. I may have over-corrected the color in

>PhotoShop. Here's an untouched pic, but the color's still not

>right. Actually the color is OK--maybe a little too light. But

>the texture is off. It does look vintage, just not vintage

>AR.

>

>Here's another question: Is there any reason not to use AR2

>woofers with the cast-aluminum baskets and cloth surrounds

>instead of re-foaming the 2ax speakers?

>thx

>

Hmmmm. I can't think of one.

Remember, it's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

[charger3834]

There is a real good reason; they won't fit ! The serial numbers of your speakers are from about 1972. By that time they were building cabinets around the new, smaller frame, 4 bolt 10" woofer. The cast-alluminum, 6 bolt, oversize-frame woofer for the AR-2,2a, pre-1970 2ax is too big !

It is also designed to work in the older system with the 2000 HZ crossover as opposed to the 1400 HZ crossover of your speakers.

[charger3834]

Power handling is also a limitation of the original AR 10" cloth-surround woofer. In addition, all the foam-surround versions have cleaner/smoother lower midrange response.

[JKent]

Thanks Brad. Guess I'll try the re-foam solution. I just got a little intimidated reading the step-by-step instructions here:

http://www.decware.com/surround.htm

[charger3834]

A local repair shop may be able to help.

[johnieo]

of the speaker with standard hot melt glue used for crafts to

>prevent any vibration rattles when you eventually play music.

>Don't worry, the hot melt glue temp. won't harm the caps.

It is imprudent IMO to sugest using hot glue for this application. We have connected the use of hot glue to the separation of the PVC casing and PVC end plug in Callins tubular non-polar electrolytic capacitors. The failure mechanisms for polypropylene and npe devices would differ, should a slow leak path be formed; however, some users might not know what device they are using and assume that hot glue is appropriate for affixing all devices. Cable ties or silicone caulk are two possible alternatives.

[dynaco_dan]

Great advice and suggestions, as always, John.

[Carlspeak]

>of the speaker with standard hot melt glue used for crafts

>to

>>prevent any vibration rattles when you eventually play

>music.

>>Don't worry, the hot melt glue temp. won't harm the caps.

>

>It is imprudent IMO to sugest using hot glue for this

>application. We have connected the use of hot glue to the

>separation of the PVC casing and PVC end plug in Callins

>tubular non-polar electrolytic capacitors. The failure

>mechanisms for polypropylene and npe devices would differ,

>should a slow leak path be formed; however, some users might

>not know what device they are using and assume that hot glue

>is appropriate for affixing all devices. Cable ties or

>silicone caulk are two possible alternatives.

>

That's an interesting point you make. However, I have just finished working on some Snell EII and JII speakers which are very well regarded in audio circles. Peter S. apparently didn't follow that philosophy. There was hot melt glue everywhere on his crossovers. He glued PP and NPE caps to his boards and together using HMG. I can provide pictures to prove it.

Remember, it's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers