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Which AR's are worth the investment?


Guest David in MA

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Guest David in MA

Just out of curiousity...if you a budget of xxx dollars to fix AR's, which would be worth the investment? For example, which AR's would be worth it if you spend $100 to fix it. How about $200? or, $400? Are they any model that you'd spend over $400?

Just wondering...

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Guest nathanso

David,

I recently read online somewhere that prices for vintage speakers were 'goofy', i.e. inexplicably low. Reasons for this include the advent of HT, low WAF on the aesthetics front, and Old-is-Bad-New-is-Good mentality. With some gear this may well be true, but I and others here feel that certain AR speakers -- after basic restoration -- are still worthy of our living rooms.

I just spent $250 for a cosmetically pristine pair of AR90s. I dropped another $200 getting the six large drivers professionally re-edged (DIY could have saved money here), and $30 more on new caps from Madisound. Could I sell these for $480? Maybe.. to an AR nut who happened to live locally. Would I sell them to anyone for $480? Hell no.. they're too unbelievably great and I think they're pretty darn cool, too.

The gist of my message is that if you're restoring a set of speakers for the purpose of re-selling, then seek another venture. If your purpose is to enjoy them yourself for many years to come, knowing you have a fantastic speaker, and have also preserved an important part of audiophile history, the go for it!

As for models, demand seems high for the AR9 and AR3a. My model, the AR90, originally slotted one notch below the monster AR9's and I feel they are also amongst AR's best. Don't discount the other larger Verticals like the AR91 and AR92. http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/ar/ar-9/ar-1.gif

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>Just out of curiousity...if you a budget of xxx dollars to

>fix AR's, which would be worth the investment? For example,

>which AR's would be worth it if you spend $100 to fix it. How

>about $200? or, $400? Are they any model that you'd spend

>over $400?

>

>Just wondering...

Hi David;

If you are talking of AR-4X's for example, to re-foam professionally about $60 - 80.00 a pair.

DIY re-foams about $20.00 for the kit.

Ebay about $50.00 - $125.00 a pair in beater shape up to not too bad a shape considering the age.

Every once in a while, a pristine condition pair come along and command a higher price, maybe.

In the case of the professional re-foam, if you are the original owner and the cabinets are minty, then you have done well.

If you happen to buy the $50.00 pair and they have been really abused and they need to be re-foamed, then you have re-foamed professional speakers with beater cabinets and maybe overheated tweeters, not a good buy.

In the case of AR-LST's, if all of the tweeters are blown, about $550.00 for 8, less for all of the 8 mids and about $100.00 to buy a good used woofer.

The enclosure condition is important to most owners.

Un-seen over driven drivers by others may be hidden.

You should know that you can, "ALMOST", blow or burn a driver.

Each speaker system, needs to be evaluated on its own merits, this is a good place to ask for that information and help.

I do get sick and tired of those lucky stiffs that find free AR, etc speakers in a neighbours garbage or Cizek 1's for $20.00.

We all should be so lucky. Heh?

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It is hard to say. Could anyone have predicted that a pair of AR-1 would have sold a few days ago for $2,225.00? I have observed pairs of AR-4x in good condition sell on eBay for $50-to-$520. My Uncle used to comment that you get more for your horse when someone wants one (timing, timing, timing). These days, many young folk opt for portability; however, can any of us predict what will be in fashion years from now? The real value isn't our investment, it's the value agreed to between buyer and seller and that's not easily predictable. Just ask a stockbroker :-)

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>Just out of curiousity...if you a budget of xxx dollars to

>fix AR's, which would be worth the investment? For example,

>which AR's would be worth it if you spend $100 to fix it. How

>about $200? or, $400? Are they any model that you'd spend

>over $400?

>

>Just wondering...

Fair question. I recently spent about $240. per AR-LST for high frequency tweeters, I have four of them. That's a total of $960. and I'll be doing all of the installation.My rational being that in the end I'll have the speakers I've always wanted and I'll keep them for life,as I planned doing anyway.

I have a number of AR-3a's and I'd do the same for them too,I'm kinda like those women you sometimes see who are so extremely devoted to their pets, its sickening.Well that would be me with AR3a' and LST's and the amps I use to drive them.

I enjoy my AR restoration hobby as I sincerely enjoy all types of music and these speakers are my medium, but some people think I'm nuts, period.

I began my 'resto' while I was married, but only in drips and drabs. Now I'm single again and I do it whenever I want to, so I'm having a ball. The obvious question would be are these old guys worth it?

Hell yeah, I'm blinded by their sound quality, especially their bass so I'll do almost anything to keep these babies going. I must admit, I couldn't afford AR-LST's or multible AR-3a's when they were new, so now I'm happier than a pig in slop. I'm running a completely vintage system comprised of a Tannoy-Micro TT, PL4000 pre-amp, Shure V15 type 3, a Philips-624 CD player,a Revox A77 1/2 track 10" reel to reel and a Pioneer CTF900 for the main system. I could never afford the stuff in 'Stereophile' magazine, nor do I like all that I see and read about current equipment, especially the prices. If I were to add up the replacement costs or equivilant prices of my system compared to new, it would be over $20 grand or more. So why bother, I'm enjoying music in a way few can or even choose to, I'm a vintage stereo nut-job and I'm lovin' it!

Sincerely Frank Marsi

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Guest David in MA

>The gist of my message is that if you're restoring a set of

>speakers for the purpose of re-selling, then seek another

>venture. If your purpose is to enjoy them yourself for many

>years to come, knowing you have a fantastic speaker, and have

>also preserved an important part of audiophile history, the go

>for it!

I guess my question wasn't very clear. What I was trying to find out is this: if I found a pair of particular model of AR speakers, would it be worth spending $xxx amount of money to restore it (not for resale but for home use)?

For example, if you found a pair of AR-3, how much would you be willing to spend on restoration? $100? $400?

Maybe it's a dumb question to ask...;)

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>>The gist of my message is that if you're restoring a set

>of

>>speakers for the purpose of re-selling, then seek another

>>venture. If your purpose is to enjoy them yourself for

>many

>>years to come, knowing you have a fantastic speaker, and

>have

>>also preserved an important part of audiophile history,

>the go

>>for it!

>

>I guess my question wasn't very clear. What I was trying to

>find out is this: if I found a pair of particular model of AR

>speakers, would it be worth spending $xxx amount of money to

>restore it (not for resale but for home use)?

>

>For example, if you found a pair of AR-3, how much would you

>be willing to spend on restoration? $100? $400?

>

>Maybe it's a dumb question to ask...;)

Hi David;

Your original question was very clear and not stupid.

There is never any stupid questions, ever.

Well, maybe never. lol

I do have all of the answers, it's only the questions I have trouble with. lol

You are now specifying a particularly collectible model AR-3.

A referrence speaker in it's hayday.

Today, well, it has been superceded in it's overall performance by numerous products from other companies and by AR itself.

Why do people still buy these old clunkers at sometimes un-heard of prices?

Because, we do like the very well made, older, smooth sounding, accurate, soft sounding, powerful gut massaging bass from a company that was also a part of our growing up.

Clunkers, I say, yes clunkers, lovely heavy clunkers that bring many a smile to their loyal owners over a period of 35 plus years.

What else, other than an excellent and special wife, or husband can you say brings you so much pleasure for that long without fail.

I am still waiting to find a pair or two sitting in a dump or dumpster or even at the curb waiting for the garbage truck or even for $20.00 at a local second hand store, so that I can get a hernia hauling these lovely clunkers home.

In my home they are a part of my furniture and I will always have a place for these and other classics.

I am just joking by using the word clunkers, as you may well know or not.

How much would I spend on a pair, if I was so lucky to find such a treasure?

The tweeters would be replaced with original old drivers, all from ebay or other used sources.

Allow $50.00/pair for tweeters.

The mids allow $75.00/pair.

The original non-foam woofers allow $65.00 each.

There is nothing even remotely close to these AR-3 speakers, on todays market, brand new.

Now this is if, and only if, you enjoy the original sound of AR-3's.

If you replaced all 6 of the drivers, it may cost you, out of pocket, maybe $260.00 +/- and your time.

Go out to a stereo store, see what you can buy for this kind of money today, not very much.

A great speaker from AR.

A good and very important question, David, thank you.

Good luck with your choices.

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Guest David in MA

Thank you for your response. From what I gather, AR-3 is definitely worth restoring. That information will be w/ me as I swing by yard sales and thrift shops...

Of course, I still wanted to know what other models are worth spending money on restoration. AR9's? AR8-90's? LST or MST models?

Either way, I will never, ever spend big bucks on new speakers from your local circuit city or best buys....I'd rather find these older vintage gems and work on them...which leds me to another question...are we hooked on these old vintage speakers because we actually restore them, and therefore, we feel we're part of what these speakers are? OR, am I becoming too philosophical about them??? Just having fun cause I've got Led Zepplin's Phisical Griffity cranking on my AR-9's...it never sounded like this on my Techinic's speakers (which I had in my high school days...lol...)...

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>Thank you for your response. From what I gather, AR-3 is

>definitely worth restoring. That information will be w/ me as

>I swing by yard sales and thrift shops...

Please don't torment us if you find a mint working pair out at a dump, please. lol

>Of course, I still wanted to know what other models are worth

>spending money on restoration. AR9's? AR8-90's? LST or MST

>models?

Others will need to help you out here.

>Either way, I will never, ever spend big bucks on new speakers

>from your local circuit city or best buys....

I'd rather find these older vintage gems and work on them.

If the sound is to your liking, a very reasonable option.

..which leds me to another question...are we hooked on these old vintage speakers

>because we actually restore them, and therefore, we feel we're

>part of what these speakers are? OR, am I becoming too

>philosophical about them??? Just having fun cause I've got

>Led Zepplin's Phisical Griffity cranking on my AR-9's...it

>never sounded like this on my Techinic's speakers (which I had

>in my high school days...lol...)...

>

Hi David;

I will leave it for someone else with more intimate and personnal experience, tell their tale regarding the AR-9's, and MST's.

The AR-LST's I can comment on, somewhat.

This would be if you want the original AR sound, not what sound new or different drivers will give you.

One pair with 8 tweeters @ $35 - $50.00 +/- each on ebay.

Two early versions, front wire leads and then rear terminals.

Mids 8 @ $25 - $75.00 each +/- on ebay.

Two early version as well, connections same as tweeters.

Woofers 2 @ $45.00 - $75.00 +/- each on ebay.

One version only that I know of.

These drivers are all 4 ohms, same as the AR-3A's, so they are usually snapped up pretty quick.

Prices do fluctuate up and down like a yo-yo, you have to keep your eyes and wallet handy.

The physically identical looking AR-5 and LST/2 mids and tweeters are not interchangeable, but are often listed as such on ebay.

I lied slightly, the can be used in this case, with an appropriate parallel resistor behind the drivers, maybe.

Used AR-LST's go for $800.00 - $2,000.00 +/- a pair.

Hard bidding from Asia drives the prices up, sometimes.

Condition of cabinet, grill cloths and drivers is very important.

I've runout of ideas, sorry.

Good luck.

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  • 2 weeks later...

David,

I just spent around $200 down at AB Tech in Hopedale to bring my AR-3As up to snuff. AB is AR's national warrenty service center. They swept all the drivers and determined one tweet was not pulling it's weight. Also, the pots were caput. So to replace the tweet and pots as well as other small details ran me a couple hundred. Well worth it in my opinion because these are superb sounding with the right equipment. I also own the 2Axs, and am thinking about running these down to AB Tech for a look-see. Good luck!

Dana

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  • 1 month later...
Guest Chartliner

I found a pair of AR-2X's in a hi-rise disposal room.

Both woofers are blown and the cabinets had water staining on the tops and sides but I have already taken an orbital sander to the tops and used paint remover and scratch cover (oil with stain) on them and they are looking pretty good.

Just have to get the 10" drivers re-coned for about $50 each and see how they sound.

These speakers were built in 1973 and the original price was US$720 which was a fair bit of money in those days.

Anyone know if these were considered to be one of the better AR's of its day?

Russ

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Check out the going prices of the old JBL speakers. As far as I'm concerned, their prices have gone into the stupid range and they are harsh to my ears.

Point being, many old high quality speakers are going for more now than they did new.

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Guest nathanso

Ebay Item number: 9701140128, BEAUTIFUL AR-90 FLOOR STANDING SPEAKERS

Sold for $750 + $250 shipping. Speakers were re-edged; not re-capped, and had new incorrect 10" woofers. That's someone spending a grand on a set of vintage speakers, sight unheard. Wow!

This one suprised me even more: Item number: 9701163679, Acoustic Research AR91 Speakers! AR-91

Sold for $620 less shipping

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Both of the above (AR-90 & AR-91) were purchased by the same bidder. I would hazard a guess that someone is in the process of putting together a very fine system (and has reasonable funds at hand to fuel this desire) -- hence the impassioned bidding.

Robert_S

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>I found a pair of AR-2X's in a hi-rise disposal room. Both woofers are blown and the cabinets had water staining on the tops and sides but I have already taken an orbital sander to the tops and used paint remover and scratch cover (oil with stain) on them and they are looking pretty good.

>These speakers were built in 1973 and the original price was

>US$720 which was a fair bit of money in those days.

>

>Anyone know if these were considered to be one of the better

>AR's of its day?

>

Russ,

Go easy with an orbital sander on veneered-wood finishes. You will struggle to get the sanding swirls out of the finish; it's better to sand *with* the grain.

I believe that the AR-2x was discontinued (for US sale) at the end of 1973, so you might have some of the last ones available. The 1972 MSRP of the 2x in Oiled Walnut (other finishes: Glossy Walnut, Cherry, Oiled Teak, Mahogany, Birch and Unfinished Pine) was $102 each, but these speakers typically were discounted, and I suspect that a pair could be purchased for $180 back then. They were considered to be excellent-value AR speakers, almost as good in performance to the higher-priced AR-2ax.

--Tom Tyson

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Guest nathanso

Yes, but on Ebay it takes two to tango. Perhaps websites like this one are rescuing our beloved AR wonders from the poverty of anonymity.

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Guest Chartliner

Hi Tom,

I think you are mistaking my orbital sander for a disk sander (as used on the end of an electric drill), orbital sanders give a gentle vibration and allows you to sand with the grain. Some of the water stains would not come out now matter how deep I sanded, although I did read that oxcillic acid can remove some.

There is information either on this forums library or another forum which shows the original invoice from the early 70's for these speakers for $720,although that seems pretty outrageous and contradicts several other price histories I also have seen.

I am thinking of replacing the woofers with some modern equivalent, many that can be seen on Froogle such as these...

http://shop.willyselectronics.com/browse.cfm/4,4606.html

I have read that the original woofers had problems producing some of the mid-ranges (one tester found that whole sections of the mid range were just missing), considering that these square open magnet woofers were replaced with solid magnet woofers and the cones are made of a heavy felt like material which is likely contributing to the poor mid-range production problem, I think it likely best to just heave them and put in the modern ones. The AR woofers also have wire mesh on the backs of the frame (to reduced air pressure on the back of the cone?), so I guess I should remove it and glue it onto whatever new woofer I buy.

One other point is that I have a pair of approx. 40 year old Sansui's with 16" woofers, mid-range and tweeters that are still perfectly functional, no rotted foams because they have creased paper cones, which obviously is the most durable design! These babies have massive bass, which I am sure is prone to slurring and sluggishness but a fella can still have a pretty good time with them.

These old speakers have beautiful wood and I appreciate their pioneering status in the industry, but I have heard new Fidelity Acoustics speakers (US$3000) with ScanSpeak 51/2 inch slitted drivers, Vifa ring tweeters (claimed to be the best in the world now) and transmission line cabinets with concrete bases. These beauties are where its at now, they are lightening fast and accurate, they make it sound like the instruments/musicians are right in the room with you, just close your eyes and Keith Jarrett or Chic Corea can be right there. :)

Russ

>>I found a pair of AR-2X's in a hi-rise disposal room.

>Both woofers are blown and the cabinets had water staining on

>the tops and sides but I have already taken an orbital sander

>to the tops and used paint remover and scratch cover (oil with

>stain) on them and they are looking pretty good.

>

>>These speakers were built in 1973 and the original price

>was

>>US$720 which was a fair bit of money in those days.

>>

>>Anyone know if these were considered to be one of the

>better

>>AR's of its day?

>>

>

>Russ,

>

>Go easy with an orbital sander on veneered-wood finishes. You

>will struggle to get the sanding swirls out of the finish;

>it's better to sand *with* the grain.

>

>I believe that the AR-2x was discontinued (for US sale) at the

>end of 1973, so you might have some of the last ones

>available. The 1972 MSRP of the 2x in Oiled Walnut (other

>finishes: Glossy Walnut, Cherry, Oiled Teak, Mahogany, Birch

>and Unfinished Pine) was $102 each, but these speakers

>typically were discounted, and I suspect that a pair could be

>purchased for $180 back then. They were considered to be

>excellent-value AR speakers, almost as good in performance to

>the higher-priced AR-2ax.

>

>--Tom Tyson

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"I have read that the original woofers had problems producing

some of the mid-ranges (one tester found that whole sections

of the mid range were just missing)"

Cite your source, please.

"These beauties are where its at now, they are

>lightening fast and accurate, they make it sound like the

>instruments/musicians are right in the room with you, just

>close your eyes and Keith Jarrett or Chic Corea can be right

>there. ;)"

Yeah, as long as Keith or Chic(k) don't use the bottom seven keys, or play anything ffff!

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Guest Chartliner

I read it on one of the forums, I did not record the location, it would take hours or days to find it again, but his person hooked up measuring equipment, I also saw the same stated by one of the stores that supplies parts.

As for your put-down of the new Fidelity Acoustics speakers, they have a very powerful bass, it is a myth that you need a big drum sized speaker to push enough air to get powerful bass. Not sure what you mean by play anything ffff!? Perhaps you think that Led Zepplin is the end all and be all? Even Jimmy Page studied classical guitar/music as have many of the good rockers.

>

>"I have read that the original woofers had problems

>producing

>some of the mid-ranges (one tester found that whole sections

>of the mid range were just missing)"

>

>Cite your source, please.

>

>"These beauties are where its at now, they are

>>lightening fast and accurate, they make it sound like the

>>instruments/musicians are right in the room with you,

>just

>>close your eyes and Keith Jarrett or Chic Corea can be

>right

>>there. ;)"

>

>Yeah, as long as Keith or Chic(k) don't use the bottom seven

>keys, or play anything ffff!

>

>

>

>

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Guest Chartliner

Below you will find the source of the quote that says the AR-2X's have gaps in the frequency production between the woofers and tweeters as requested by the previous poster. This quote is from the Library of this forum article on the AR-2X project. There is another post that details how AR eventually changed woofers because of this problem....

From Classicspeakerspages library (see bottom of article):

"Thanks to Sam Payne for sharing his comments on this AR2X project!

Hi,

I just completed a project using a pair of AR-2x speakers. The

original woofer surrounds were rotted, so I had a local guy re-do them.

As one of the 5"mid/tweeters was blown, I did some thinking when I saw

the comments on your site regarding using VIFA tweeters. Having just

used a pair of D27TG-35-06 units for another project, I decided to try

the Morel MDT-30 tweeters for a comparison. Speaker City had them for

$30.00 apiece, so I went that way.

The original air core inductor in the woofer circuit looked pretty

nice, so they were retained. Since my level controls were shot, in

their place I installed 50 watt mono l-pads, following a 10uF Solen (for

an 1800 to 2000 hz x-over frequency) cap, so I could match the levels.

Retained the 1, 2, and T binding post arrangement, since it allows

testing the woofer and tweeter responses separately or together.

Looking at the large distance between the mid/tweeter center and the

woofer center, I decided to relocate the tweeters. Fabricated 4.7 in.

birch plywood "discs" that were bolted over the original openings, using

the original t-nuts and screws. Cut a 3.0 in. hole right above the

woofer opening, so when mounted the Morel's are just touching the edge

of the woofer cutout, and centered vertically above them.

Of course, relocating the tweeters meant that the original grill frames

had a horizontal band of material right across the fronts of the

tweeters, so new grill frames were made from 1/4 in. plywood. Used the

original frames as a template...just drew the circle for the woofer end,

turned the frame around, and drew another circle. Made the sides

straight, so ended up with a large, vertical oval opening. Re-stapled

the o.e.m. fabric on the new frames, put the velcro back on, and

re-installed the logo's.

Damping internally was with 10.5 oz. of fluffed up polyester fiber

batting, to replace the over 1 lb. of itchy fiberglass.

Done! The finished speakers sound really great, and since the Morels

are spec'd about 200 watts, I'll never have to worry about "blowing"

them. Only thing is I'm not sure the Morels sound any better than the

less expensive Vifa's, but the sound is still superb. May try tweeking

the x-over values at a later date, since I really don't know what the

inductor value is at present (they seem to be marked with a "7" in black

magic marker...maybe for 0.7mH?)

Oh yeah, the original speakers, AR-2x were made some time after June

1974...at least that is the dates on the woofer magnets. Two way system

with 10" woofer and 5" mid/tweeter. 6 dB x-over consisting of air-core

inductor feeding the woofer, and a 20uF Sprague compulytic 50v, NP

electrolytic capacitor feeding the mid/tweeter. And the damn level

controls.

BTW, as per the original wiring I observered, the level controls AR

used are not l-pads. Also, the impedance fed by the x-over cap will

VARY as the level is changed, therefore the x-over frequency VARIES from

maybe 500 hz. at min. to 1500-2000 hz. at max. What were they

thinking??? Thanks, Sam Payne

(Later update on these AR2x!) :

As an update, previously I was setting the tweeter level to whatever

sounded about right. Recently got an audio oscillator, so I could look

at frequency response, etc. Decided that "normal" would be for equal

levels at 500 and 5000 hz., thus comparing levels away from the x-over

frequency.

Investigation proved that on this speaker, the woofer just flat stops

at about 1100 hz. Even with the series inductor removed...not much

sound over 1100. And my tweeters are x-d at about 1800 or 2000 hz.,

leaving a bit of a gap in the mid-range.

Tweeter x-over is being changed to a very low 1400 hz.(one octave above

the 700 Fs of the Morel's), and damping fill was adjusted upward to a

total of 16 oz. per cabinet.

Now if I can just find another pair of AR's in need of a home!"

From previous poster:

>"I have read that the original woofers had problems

>producing

>some of the mid-ranges (one tester found that whole sections

>of the mid range were just missing)"

>

>Cite your source, please.

>

>"These beauties are where its at now, they are

>>lightening fast and accurate, they make it sound like the

>>instruments/musicians are right in the room with you,

>just

>>close your eyes and Keith Jarrett or Chic Corea can be

>right

>>there. ;)"

>

>Yeah, as long as Keith or Chic(k) don't use the bottom seven

>keys, or play anything ffff!

>

>

>

>

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Sorry - I assumed too much. ffff is a commonly-known musical abbreviation for "fortissimo forte", and denotes an extreme dynamic - something that I heard Jarrett execute several times at a concert a couple of years back.

I've no idea what the Zeppelin & Page reference is about, but thanks for locating the source of your "whole sections of the mid range were just missing" quote. The poster wasn't referring to a problem with the AR-2, but rather, one that related to a *new* situation, brought about by his use of non-AR replacement tweeters. It's not altogether reassuring that his "measuring equipment" consisted of a recently-acquired audio oscillator - tough to believe that this fellow and his little Heathkit discovered something that the AR engineers had missed!

No shot was taken at Fidelity Acoustics, but if you're certain that their speakers are capable of such "powerful bass", then perhaps you should drop them a line, because their factory specs show only a 40 Hz bottom.

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I think people are becoming aware of the great sound of acoustic suspension speakers. I've seen AR 3, 3a and LST speakers increasing in eBay auctions by 25-35% over the past 8 months. eBAY AR3's have spiked by about 40% within the past year. These speakers are very expensive to ship so it's kind of surprising. I plan on selling some of my collection this summer at an antique show, because I'm running out of room - I'm curious to see how they sell.

glen s.

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Guest Chartliner

ffff...yes I have heard Keith Jarrett create strong dynamics at a live concert too...blew my mind what he was doing with those thick chords -way back in 1974 when he was at his youthful peak in terms of creative energy..imo (albums like Breman Lussanne,Koln or Sun Bear.

If the AR-2X did not have a problem with mid-range re-production then why did AR change woofers on them, the original open sided square magnet housing that was taped over with masking tape was changed in favour of the solid magnet woofer. The cone material on the woofers on mine are also a very thick felt like material which is not likely too be to responsive or quick is it.

I heard a demo of the Fidelity Acoustics transmission line speakers and found them to be very good, I could not see any problems with producing stong bass, from Ray Brown's Jazz acoustic bass to kettle drums, these speakers gave the illusion that these musicians were in the room...that's as good as it gets, dispite your technical 40 Hz bottom objection.

Using the Scanspeak slitted 6" drivers and the Vifa ring tweeters in a transmission line box seems to work miracles. The transmission line design seems to be the next great evolution of speakers, bringing out nuances better than other designs, by diverting the back wave of the driver towards the front. Interesting article about transmission line DIY speaker project... http://www.geocities.com/bunkie21/

Russ

>Sorry - I assumed too much. ffff is a commonly-known musical

>abbreviation for "fortissimo forte", and denotes an

>extreme dynamic - something that I heard Jarrett execute

>several times at a concert a couple of years back.

>

>I've no idea what the Zeppelin & Page reference is about,

>but thanks for locating the source of your "whole

>sections of the mid range were just missing" quote. The

>poster wasn't referring to a problem with the AR-2, but

>rather, one that related to a *new* situation, brought about

>by his use of non-AR replacement tweeters. It's not altogether

>reassuring that his "measuring equipment" consisted

>of a recently-acquired audio oscillator - tough to believe

>that this fellow and his little Heathkit discovered something

>that the AR engineers had missed!

>

>No shot was taken at Fidelity Acoustics, but if you're certain

>that their speakers are capable of such "powerful

>bass", then perhaps you should drop them a line, because

>their factory specs show only a 40 Hz bottom.

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>If the AR-2X did not have a problem with mid-range

>re-production then why did AR change woofers on them, the

>original open sided square magnet housing that was taped over

>with masking tape was changed in favour of the solid magnet

>woofer. The cone material on the woofers on mine are also a

>very thick felt like material which is not likely too be to

>responsive or quick is it.

Ask Tom Tyson about the evolution of the AR-2 woofers, he can better explain their variants in a way that you'll be able to appreciate.

Suffice to say that if you're intent on comparing old loudspeakers, and their associated technology to current-production models, why are you picking on the little AR-2? That speaker merely revolutionized what sort of reproduction was available in the home - it was affordable for college students & young married couples, and combined with the excellent Dynaco electronics of that day, could bring near first-class sound into anyone's home. But it was never AR's top-of-the-line product.

A better comparison, price & technology-wise, would be with the AR-9. Please let me know if you'd like to do that.

The 40Hz observation wasn't a technical "objection", merely a citing of the low-frequency limit given in the specifications provided by the manufacturer. To put it more clearly - the nearly 50 year-old AR-2 variants will exceed the low-end capability of the current model Fidelity Acoustics product. To me, this is a *good thing*. It's only current fashion in "high-end" loudspeakers & the audiophile press that makes acceptable the notion that losing the bottom octave of a piano can be an attribute! As far as reproducing the fundamental of a kettle drum goes - well, do the math.

It's impossible to speak to your particular observation of what is a convincing representation of musicians being "in the room", because it's far too open to a subjective response. Ditto, on attempting to discern how a transmission line brings out "nuances better than other designs" - I mean, how could one quantify that? My honest suggestion is that if you are truly convinced by the simulacrum provided by whatever combination of Fidelity Acoustics loudspeakers & electronics you heard, THAT THE MUSICIANS ARE IN THE ROOM WITH YOU, then you should RUN out, and buy that equipment! And never look back.

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