Sansui or Onkyo receiver best for Model 20 speakers?

[DavidWms]

New "kid" (loosely speaking) here. I picked up a pair of Model 20 speakers at Goodwill. They appear to be very clean and good shape and original (except for bottom board and wheels added) but have not tested because lacked appropriate receiver. Two used models popped up on CL and I'd really appreciate advice on which to choose:

1. Onkyo TX-8011. Fairly basic but has a phono input and manual says it can handle the 4 ohm speaker ( so long as you don't add "B" speakers.) http://www.manualowl.com/m/Onkyo/TX-8011/Manual/220656?page=11

2. Sansui 2000A. Also with phono input and rated for 4 ohms: "The Sansui 2000A solid state tuner also serves as an amplifier, delivering 120 watts of audio power at 4 Ohms and 90 watts at 8 Ohms." http://www.ehow.com/list_7484345_sansui-2000a-specs.html

The Sansui is "more" receiver and would cost twice as much as Onkyo,although both are under $100. I plan to use this mostly for vinyl on a Dual 1219 TT. I will take the receiver to a shop for checking caps, etc. but would like your opinion on whether one is a better fit, assuming both are in same general condition.

I like vintage for the price and supposed build quality, but if there is a reasonably priced new receiver, I would consider that also. Thanks for you help!

Also, is there any advantage to changing the RCA plug to a banana plug? Someone selling some 20's on Ebay claimed so.

David

[JKent]

Welcome David

I've had a number of Onkyos and like them. Have no experience with Sansui but it is well regarded.

But as far as your Twenties are concerned, definitely replace the capacitors. They are black PVC models that always leak. While you are at it, you can install some banana plugs. When I restored my Tenties, I installed some round speaker cups from PE. Something like this works very well--just drill the appropriate size hole with a hole saw: http://www.parts-exp...tnumber=260-292

These are rather large and the spacing is not standard, but they are nice posts and cheap! http://www.parts-exp...tnumber=269-101

Kent

[Jim Lauffer]

David,

I don't have Model 20s; however, I have used, and enjoyed, the following Sansui pieces with my Model 5s: Sansui AU-505 integrated amplifier, and Sansui 800, 2000A, and QR-4500 receivers. For me, any one of these sounded better with the Model 5s than the Technics receiver that I first used and the Marantz 1060 and 2230 that I subsequently used. I actually traded the 2230 for a second pair of Model 5s. Another thing: all the Sansui amplification that I've used runs cool, a good thing if you plan to listen to for long periods of time (as I do with Pittsburgh's classical music station). I hope this helps.

Regards,

Jim

[DavidWms]

Kent, that's a good idea and I will have the speakers checked out as well. Thanks for the tip on the banana plug source. I will do that.

Jim, It says a lot that you prefer Sansui over Marantz. There is actually a clean Marantz 2245 (a model described as "legendary" by some) for sale nearby and I was considering it, but it's more than twice the Sansui 2000A.

Interesting that Sansui 2000A still gets good resale 40 years after sold. I've always thought Onkryo was also high quality brand but this one is from 2004, although some of the specs -- and I'm no expert -- appear to be close to the 1970 Sansui. Probably either one would work fine. Would it be too much to haul my TT and speakers and set it up when I go look at them for a apples/apples test drive? Or over the top?

[Jim Lauffer]

David,

I liked the Marantz 1060 and 2230 very much, but I like the Sansui + Model 5 combination more. If you search AudioKarma, you'll find lots of information about the Sansui 2000 receivers. One thing that comes up is that one type of transistor (I can't remember the model number or the board or boards it's on) used in the receiver sometimes becomes noisy and should then be replaced. I wanted to mention this last evening, but forgot to do so. A friend sells used and vintage audio gear and has a few Onkyo pieces. They are attractive and do sound good. My ears are 56 years old and far from golden. I lucked into my first pair of Model 5s for $25 at a flea market. Kent, whose opinions I value, rebuilt the crossovers for me, and the rest, as the saying goes, is history. I've been sliding down the slippery slope of vintage speakers ever since!

The best way to satisfy your ears and your curiosity would be to listen to both receivers with your turntable and speakers. If you want to take them and set them up for a comparison, why not do so?

Just my two cents!

Jim

[JKent]

The KLH 20 crossover is the same as the KLH 17, which you can find in Post #2 here: http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=5587

You will need two 2uF and one 8uF cap per speaker. If you get the terminal cups from Parts Express, their Dayton caps work well (tht's what I used).

To wire the banana jacks, I just ran jumpers from the RCA jack, so you could use either connection.

If you do install the banana jacks, you may want to get two "screw protectors" from a hardware store or Home Depot. You want the 5/16" green ones like this: http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202210070/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=5%2F16+screw+protector&storeId=10051#.UMdmLHdy1bw

Put them on the RCA jacks to seal them and prevent air leakage. You want the cabinets to be airtight.

Kent

[DavidWms]

Thanks, Kent. I'm having the caps changed now, although my local expert tells me he's not sure if I will be fully satisfied with the KLH's. I'm trying to make a short list of other vintage speakers that would be a good upgrade. I saw some original large Advents on CL , but I waited too long. I know some of it is subjective, but is there a primer or short list of vintage speakers on this forum or elsewhere you'd recommend?

On the receiver, in going through my basement, I came across my 1972 Realistic STA-150 receiver that I thought I had given away. It was their top of the line at the time and the best a poor college student could do. My local expert is getting it up to snuff, so I will probably try that initially, but keep an eye out for classic receivers as well. Thanks for your help.

[JKent]

That Realistic looks like a nice receiver. And it WILL handle 4 ohms. Catalog page with specs here: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=112808

You're right about subjectivity. The KLH Seventeen is very highly regarded, and the Twenty is just the 4 ohm version. But they are smallish. Good for acoustic music, chamber orchestra, jazz. They are not ideal for huge orchestral works or thumping rock n roll, and they are designed for a normal-size room. They'll get lost if you have a cavernous listening room.

As far as the "best" vintage speakers for you, only you can tell. You have to factor in cost, size, appearance, budget and oh yeah, sound.

Among KLH speakers, the Fives are very nice--possibly on a par with the AR-3a. Twelves are terrific speakers but huge. If you have a place for them and find a pair they are bargains. The Twenty-Eights are rare. I've never heard them but they seem to be top of the line. Then there are the Nines--big buck electrostatics. Among the smaller ones the Twenty-Three, Six and Four are all well regarded. IMHO the "best" KLH is the Five.

Most of the discussion on CSP centers on AR speakers. The AR-3a is the benchmark but because of that they tend to be a bit expensive. The 2a and 2ax are close rivals for less money, as is the 5. Then there was a succession of "newer" AR speakers. The 303, 10pi, 11, 91 (maybe others) are essentially updated 3a's. The AR-9 is big and heavy but many consider it the gold standard. The LST is like a 3a on steroids (in a good way). I suggest looking through the AR posts. I think there was a thread entitled "best 12" 3-way" or something like that. There were MANY outstanding AR speakers. . edit: Found it: http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?showtopic=6137

Also browse the other brands featured. You know about the Large Advents (I personally prefer the AR-2ax but YMMV). Avid speakers were excellent but often clad in ugly imitation walnut vinyl.

Allison speakers were absolutely wonderful. You'll see that A/D/S, Bose, Boston Acoustics, Bozak, Cizek, EPI, Genesis, Snell, Dahlquist, Dynaco and Rectilinear all have their own forums and their own following. Sometimes you can get these lesser-known brands at bargain prices. I've picked up Rectilinears at the Salvation Army. I'm working on some beautiful Cizeks right now.

Some of the well-known brands are inconsistent. AR, KLH and Advent (and others) had some great speakers and some real stinkers. Usually that happened when the name was sold and some other manufacturer built crap and slapped an AR or KLH logo on it. Caveat emptor.

Then there are the imports but that's beyond the scope of this forum. I'll just say I've never heard a bad speaker from Canada or England.

Good luck!
Kent

[DavidWms]

Kent, belated thanks for your thorough primer. Just noticed a nice looking pair of 17s online and was tempted but after reviewing your comments again,I don't know that the extra expense would translate into better sound quality since my receiver will drive 4 ohms.

David

[JKent]

Just noticed a nice looking pair of 17s online and was tempted but after reviewing your comments again,I don't know that the extra expense would translate into better sound quality since my receiver will drive 4 ohms.

I agree. I doubt the 17s would sound any better (I have owned both the 17 and 20 but did not do a side-by-side comparison). My suggestion would be to save your money. Now if you ever come across a nice pair of Fives, those would definitely be a step up (same goes for AR-2a, 2ax and several others). Interesting thread here with links to old Consumer Reports reviews of classic speakers: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=489207

Kent