AR-11 Speaker Project-Need Advice!

[Guest amarkscpa]

I am original owner of AR-11 speakers and want to get these restored. Purchased these around 1978. These speakers apparently are the 11A model as they have a brass logo and the mini-switches are above the speaker posts. Serial numbers begin with 18xxx.

Have read several of the posts by rich laski and others.

Here is what I am trying to do, please advise whether this is viable. Likely purchasing a new Onkyo 605 or similar Amp and going from 5.1 to 7.1 surround sound. Currently have 4 Energy Take 2 speakers with Energy Subwoofer and a Sony DVP-NC85H 5 Disk DVD player that plays my music CD’s. I load 5 CD’s at a time and listen to music throughout my workday, as I work from home. With the music zones of the Amp, can switch between the AR-11’s when listening to music in stereo, to 7.1 surround when watching TV/DVD which will utilize both the Energy and AR-11 speakers.

So appears the consensus view is to get my AR-11’s refoamed and to get new capacitors? Could someone please just recommend what they believe is the best readily available new capacitor to use? Please provide me with a link so I can order these. Are there any other recommendations you have when I get these speakers refurbished/restored? Please advise. Also, one woofer basket is loose from the speaker stand and I need to determine how best to repair this. Any ideas here?

I have already found a craigslist refurbisher here in Dallas who apparently does excellent work in stripping sanding and refinishing with 5 coats of hand applied Tung oil for $75/each including the capacitor install. This appears to be reasonable since I really do not have the time or inclination to do this restoration project myself…

http://dallas.craigslist.org/ele/457087713.html

Especially need a recommendation on the capacitors to purchase, even though this appears to be a matter of personal taste. If it makes a difference, my musical tastes range from The Who to Steely Dan, Elton John, Electric Light Orchestra, Joni Mitchell, George Benson, Bella Fleck, Supertramp, Spyro Gyro, Stevie Wonder (basically rock, jazz and Motown).

Well, that’s it. Any comments, suggestions or advice would be sincerely appreciated.

Thanks for listening.

[r_laski]

>> I am original owner of AR-11 speakers and want to get these restored. Purchased these around 1978. These speakers apparently are the 11A model as they have a brass logo and the mini-switches are above the speaker posts. Serial numbers begin with 18xxx. <<

From your description and the serial numbers, I believe you have some of the last AR-11A’s (brass logos). With the switches above the binding posts -- not to the side – I think you have single board crossovers.

>> Here is what I am trying to do, please advise whether this is viable. Likely purchasing a new Onkyo 605 or similar Amp and going from 5.1 to 7.1 surround sound. Currently have 4 Energy Take 2 speakers with Energy Subwoofer and a Sony DVP-NC85H 5 Disk DVD player that plays my music CD’s. I load 5 CD’s at a time and listen to music throughout my workday, as I work from home. With the music zones of the Amp, can switch between the AR-11’s when listening to music in stereo, to 7.1 surround when watching TV/DVD which will utilize both the Energy and AR-11 speakers.<<

I’ve experimented a very little bit with my AR-11s in an HT system. My 2cents worth -- I doubt you need a subwoofer if you can set the HT amp to “large speaker” and send the low frequencies to your AR-11s as your front L&R. Don’t know how “matched” the voicing is between the AR-11s and the Energy speakers.

>>So appears the consensus view is to get my AR-11’s refoamed and to get new capacitors?<<

Absolutely.

>> Could someone please just recommend what they believe is the best readily available new capacitor to use? <<

By using the qualifier “the best readily available” you are asking a loaded question. North Creek caps are no longer available, my preference. Some may disagree, but I recommend you go with Solen caps from Parts Express. I’ve used these (combined with North Creek caps) in a pair of AR-90s I rebuilt with pleasing results to my ears.

Note -- You will have to combine two or more caps (in parallel) to get the specific values you need for the AR-11.

>>Please provide me with a link so I can order these.<<

http://www.partsexpress.com/solen-metalliz...-capacitors.cfm

>> Are there any other recommendations you have when I get these speakers refurbished/restored?<<

- If you’ve driven your AR-11s hard the resistors may be scorched and need to be replaced.

- If the foam grills have deteriorated, new grills can be made from black speaker cloth stretched over a wood frame.

- “Upgrade” the binding posts.

>> Please advise. Also, one woofer basket is loose from the speaker stand and I need to determine how best to repair this. Any ideas here? <<

No sure what you mean here. Could you give more details on what the problem is or provide a picture.

>>I have already found a craigslist refurbisher here in Dallas who apparently does excellent work in stripping sanding and refinishing with 5 coats of hand applied Tung oil for $75/each including the capacitor install. This appears to be reasonable since I really do not have the time or inclination to do this restoration project myself…

http://dallas.craigslist.org/ele/457087713.html <<

I tried your link It’s been removed by the author.

Hope this helps.

Rich

[Guest amarkscpa]

Thanks much for your reply.

>>From your description and the serial numbers, I believe you have some of the last AR-11A’s (brass logos). With the switches above the binding posts -- not to the side – I think you have single board crossovers.<<

Yes, as I recall I had the choice between the old model and new model when I purchased them. The serial numbers are 14743 and 14758.

>>I’ve experimented a very little bit with my AR-11s in an HT system. My 2cents worth -- I doubt you need a subwoofer if you can set the HT amp to “large speaker” and send the low frequencies to your AR-11s as your front L&R. Don’t know how “matched” the voicing is between the AR-11s and the Energy speakers.<<

I already have an Energy subwoofer, but most of my time is spent listening to music so am not too concerned about the matched sound for watching movies.

>>So appears the consensus view is to get my AR-11’s refoamed and to get new capacitors?<<

>>By using the qualifier “the best readily available” you are asking a loaded question. North Creek caps are no longer available, my preference. Some may disagree, but I recommend you go with Solen caps from Parts Express. I’ve used these (combined with North Creek caps) in a pair of AR-90s I rebuilt with pleasing results to my ears.<<

Thanks for that info. My refurbish technician also prefers these Solen Metallized Polypropylene caps, so you two agree on this issue.

>> If the foam grills have deteriorated, new grills can be made from black speaker cloth stretched over a wood frame.<<

Please provide a photo on how you constructed this wood frame/cloth grill. Need to figure out best means to proceed with the grill. Purchased a replacement foam grill about 5 years ago. Did the original foam grills have places grooved into it so that the tweeter and midrange did not touch the foam?

>> Also, one woofer basket is loose from the speaker stand and I need to determine how best to repair this. Any ideas here? <<

No sure what you mean here. Could you give more details on what the problem is or provide a picture.<<

Ok, diagnosed as a loose/torn voice coil. So appears I either have to get this woofer reconed or purchase a new woofer. Please advise best means to proceed.

From reading posts, appears there are different versions of the 12” woofer and may not match the other one I am keeping? Found some replacement woofers from:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...OX:NEWLIST#LIST

http://adsspeakers.com/AR.htm

So should I purchase a new woofer or get my old one reconed…?

Also, guess I will soon be in the market for speaker stands. What preference do you have as to how far these AR-11 should be off the floor…? 6”, 12”, 18” or 24” ?

>>Hope this helps.<<

Yes it did. Thanks for your time in this matter.

[r_laski]

>> Did the original foam grills have places grooved into it so that the tweeter and midrange did not touch the foam? <<

Yes, and a recessed area in front of the woofer.

>> If the foam grills have deteriorated, new grills can be made from black speaker cloth stretched over a wood frame.

Please provide a photo on how you constructed this wood frame/cloth grill. Need to figure out best means to proceed with the grill. Purchased a replacement foam grill about 5 years ago.<<

I haven’t had to do this yet for my AR-11s. My brother made some for his AR-11s and for my Dad’s. It’s just a basic rectangle of wood, painted black, with black grill cloth stretched over it and stapled to the back of the frame. You need to make the wood frame just big enough so that after the cloth is installed the grill will fit snugly inside the recessed area of the speaker front and is held in by friction.

If someone else had done this and can provide pictures …

>> Also, one woofer basket is loose from the speaker stand and I need to determine how best to repair this. Any ideas here? …

So should I purchase a new woofer or get my old one reconed…? <<

Get the woofer reconed. I’ve had several AR woofers reconed and if done right by a competent professional, your woofer will be as good as new. Also, I highly recommend you have the other woofer refoamed (new surround) at the same time.

“New” AR woofers are very different (made by Tonegen) and have a noticeably different “voice”. If you can’t find anyone in the Dallas area to recone your woofer, look on this forum for contact information for Carl’s Custom Loudspeakers or Millersound.

>> Also, guess I will soon be in the market for speaker stands. What preference do you have as to how far these AR-11 should be off the floor…? 6”, 12”, 18” or 24” ? <<

My preference – 6” to 12” off the floor with the speakers vertical. As you get up around 24” the AR-11 becomes more of a “bookshelf speaker” and you may find it better to place the AR-11s horizontal. I’ve used my AR-11s both ways.

Good Luck and keep us informed as to how your project turns out!

Rich

[Guest amarkscpa]

>> Did the original foam grills have places grooved into it so that the tweeter and midrange did not touch the foam? <<

Yes, and a recessed area in front of the woofer.<<

Looks like another option would be to purchase new speaker foam and then cut out the proper recessed areas for the midrange, tweeter, and midrange...? Scouring the internet, appears to be a few folks who can provide new speaker foam and even have it beveled to look like the original foam. What is the thickness of the original A/R foam?

Is the wood grill with cloth preferable for some reason over the foam?

>>Get the woofer reconed. I’ve had several AR woofers reconed and if done right by a competent professional, your woofer will be as good as new. Also, I highly recommend you have the other woofer refoamed (new surround) at the same time. “New” AR woofers are very different (made by Tonegen) and have a noticeably different “voice”. <<

Thanks much. Will get it reconed.

>>"My preference – 6” to 12” off the floor with the speakers vertical.<<

Thanks for stating your preference.

>>Good Luck and keep us informed as to how your project turns out!<<

Thanks, plan to post pictures as this AR-11 project comes to fruition.

[r_laski]

>>Looks like another option would be to purchase new speaker foam and then cut out the proper recessed areas for the midrange, tweeter, and midrange...? <<

IMO, I think trying to sculpt recesses into speaker foam would be very difficult to do to get it right.

>> Scouring the internet, appears to be a few folks who can provide new speaker foam and even have it beveled to look like the original foam. What is the thickness of the original A/R foam? <<

The original AR grill foam is 1 inch thick.

>>Is the wood grill with cloth preferable for some reason over the foam?<<

I recommend the wood frame and cloth because 1) it is an easy DIY project, 2) it is inexpensive compared to foam, 3) the results are outstanding, and 4) unless you have pets or kids that claw or poke at the grill cloth, it is a permanent solution. Foam will eventually deteriorate and have to be replaced again.

If you have the skill and the tools, you can bevel the wood to match the profile of the original foam.

Looking forward to your pics!

Rich

[Guest amarkscpa]

Called both Carl’s Custom Loudspeakers and Millersound. Both are quite busy right now and could not guarantee to have this ready by Christmas (i.e. 6 weeks or more...)

Decided to go with Simply Speakers who my technician said has done good work for him heretofore. Cost $75 plus shipping and can have this woofer turned around in 2 weeks. http://simplyspeakers.com/index.htm

In regard to AR-11 Speaker Grills, still trying to determine how best to proceed... The wood frame and cloth seems viable.

FWIW, http://www.foamspeakergrills.com/ offers replicas of the original AR-11 foam grills. Cost is $100/pair postage paid. This includes cutting the recesses for the Tweeter and Midrange and Woofer. Seems expensive, but he does great work.

>>Looks like another option would be to purchase new speaker foam and then cut out the proper recessed areas for the midrange, tweeter, and midrange...? <<

IMO, I think trying to sculpt recesses into speaker foam would be very difficult to do to get it right.

>> Scouring the internet, appears to be a few folks who can provide new speaker foam and even have it beveled to look like the original foam. What is the thickness of the original A/R foam? <<

The original AR grill foam is 1 inch thick.

>>Is the wood grill with cloth preferable for some reason over the foam?<<

I recommend the wood frame and cloth because 1) it is an easy DIY project, 2) it is inexpensive compared to foam, 3) the results are outstanding, and 4) unless you have pets or kids that claw or poke at the grill cloth, it is a permanent solution. Foam will eventually deteriorate and have to be replaced again.

If you have the skill and the tools, you can bevel the wood to match the profile of the original foam.

Looking forward to your pics!

Rich

[Guest treblehit]

Called both Carl’s Custom Loudspeakers and Millersound. Both are quite busy right now and could not guarantee to have this ready by Christmas (i.e. 6 weeks or more...)

Decided to go with Simply Speakers who my technician said has done good work for him heretofore. Cost $75 plus shipping and can have this woofer turned around in 2 weeks.

None of my business and you gotta do what you gotta do, but I will tell you that my experience with Simply Speakers was that I had to send the woofers elsewhere (Millersound) to be re-repaired after they came back from Simply Speakers.

First, they quoted me a turn-around time and a month later told me that they were on their way and a couple of weeks after that they actually sent them.

Second, they were sent to Ken Kantor for testing. Ken tested them (links to the results are here somewhere) and they were quieter and higher in resonance frequency than they should have been. Ken sent them to me. I looked at them and immediately saw the problem - Simply Speakers had done a great job of very neatly replacing the foam but the foam was "tight." I examined them further and found the problem was that they had been refoamed with sagging spiders. The result was that the foam was already "pulled tight" at rest because it was fighting with the spider. There was no "rearward" throw possible.

Two things: 1) How did Ken's lab tech manage to test these and not conclude that they had been ruined? (I suspect it was the exclusive use of small signal tests), and; 2) How did Simply Speakers let them out of the door in that condition? (I suspect they don't routinely check anything)

Do I expect you to have a similarly unsatisfactory experience? Well, it depends on if your spiders are sagging number one, and if you don't mind the 1/2" roll foam (the correct is 5/8") raising the resonance a bit, number two. This whole "foam problem" ***DOES*** make a ***HUGE*** difference in the performance of what you get back. I'm not talking about a final "splitting of hairs" here. I'm talking about a complete and total change in the way the restored speaker system sounds. Blindfolded, listening to two pairs, one with woofers incorrectly repaired and the other with a correctly repaired set of woofers, you really would not guess that they were made by the same manufacturer, much less that they were the same model.

Of all the drivers that Ken tested, the two which were the most satisfying were both refoamed with 5/8" foam by an outfit called "Tri-State Loudspeaker." The test results were the most like the original, and I can testify that they are the best "sounding" of six woofers which underwent eight repairs. Unfortunately I cannot recommend them because they took over six months to return the four drivers I had originally sent them and they were difficult to contact.

Can I offer a better solution than "get the right foam and do it yourself?" Unfortunately I can't.

[Guest amarkscpa]

None of my business and you gotta do what you gotta do, but I will tell you that my experience with Simply Speakers was that I had to send the woofers elsewhere (Millersound) to be re-repaired after they came back from Simply Speakers.

First, they quoted me a turn-around time and a month later told me that they were on their way and a couple of weeks after that they actually sent them.

Second, they were sent to Ken Kantor for testing. Ken tested them (links to the results are here somewhere) and they were quieter and higher in resonance frequency than they should have been. Ken sent them to me. I looked at them and immediately saw the problem - Simply Speakers had done a great job of very neatly replacing the foam but the foam was "tight." I examined them further and found the problem was that they had been refoamed with sagging spiders. The result was that the foam was already "pulled tight" at rest because it was fighting with the spider. There was no "rearward" throw possible.

Two things: 1) How did Ken's lab tech manage to test these and not conclude that they had been ruined? (I suspect it was the exclusive use of small signal tests), and; 2) How did Simply Speakers let them out of the door in that condition? (I suspect they don't routinely check anything)

Do I expect you to have a similarly unsatisfactory experience? Well, it depends on if your spiders are sagging number one, and if you don't mind the 1/2" roll foam (the correct is 5/8") raising the resonance a bit, number two. This whole "foam problem" ***DOES*** make a ***HUGE*** difference in the performance of what you get back. I'm not talking about a final "splitting of hairs" here. I'm talking about a complete and total change in the way the restored speaker system sounds. Blindfolded, listening to two pairs, one with woofers incorrectly repaired and the other with a correctly repaired set of woofers, you really would not guess that they were made by the same manufacturer, much less that they were the same model.

Of all the drivers that Ken tested, the two which were the most satisfying were both refoamed with 5/8" foam by an outfit called "Tri-State Loudspeaker." The test results were the most like the original, and I can testify that they are the best "sounding" of six woofers which underwent eight repairs. Unfortunately I cannot recommend them because they took over six months to return the four drivers I had originally sent them and they were difficult to contact.

Can I offer a better solution than "get the right foam and do it yourself?" Unfortunately I can't.

Thanks much for your comments.

I will ensure Simply Speakers is advised about these issues before performing any work. Namely, will call Simply Speakers and inquire about the sagging spiders issue and using 5/8" foam, before they start reconing this woofer.

Hopefully, this will ensure they do a proper job. Surely Simply Speakers can use 5/8" foam and check the sagging spiders issue if I request them to do so before they start work....? Any other comments that I can pass on to ensure they do this job right? Thanks again for your help.

[Guest amarkscpa]

Pictures of AR-11's after sand strip and refinish with 6 coats of hand rubbed tung oil.

[Guest amarkscpa]

Pictures of AR-11's after sand strip and refinish with 6 coats of hand rubbed tung oil.

[Guest speedracer]

Pictures of AR-11's after sand strip and refinish with 6 coats of hand rubbed tung oil.

How about "orange county speakers ? in CA ?

[Guest amarkscpa]

Ok, anyone have any comments on viability of these capacitors from parts express...?

Two capacitors (values 40uf & 10uf) replaced with new Solen brand types (black cylinders with yellow ends).

Dayton DMPC-10 10uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor

Dayton DMPC-40 40uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor

[r_laski]

Nice cabinets.

As I suspected, you have the single board crossovers. BTW, your resistors show no signs of scorching, so I would just leave them alone.

Out of curiosity, are your midranges original or were they ever replaced? The reason I'm asking is to get an idea of when AR changed the midrange from the AR-3a midrange (black screen) to the newer midrange (silver screen). Your tweeters are definitely a later version of the "AR-11A" tweeter. They have the older AR "font", but have black cloth dome instead of earlier white/yellow cloth dome. AR-11B tweeters have diffraction foam on the face plate.

RE: Dayton capacitors -- I tried these in an AR-90 restoration. I built up one crossover with the Daytons and compared it to an original AR-90 (with old/ and later measured out of spec capacitors). The Daytons sounded as bad as or worse than the original (bad) capacitors. I sent the unused Dayton caps back to Parts Express and bought Solens. I DO NOT recommend Dayton caps. IMHO, spend the marginally extra money on Solens.

If you stay with the Daytons or change to Solens, I recommend you apply a little solder to your twisted wire connections.

Rich

[Guest treblehit]

Ok, anyone have any comments on viability of these capacitors from parts express...?

Two capacitors (values 40uf & 10uf) replaced with new Solen brand types (black cylinders with yellow ends).

Dayton DMPC-10 10uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor

Dayton DMPC-40 40uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor

I will take and have taken a lot of flack for this, but I'm telling you anyway because it has worked-out really well for me. It is so much easier to do while you are there and is extremely cheap.

I would by-pass the 10uF and 20uF capacitors with a very small one. . . like .5uF or something. That leaves the total within tolerances but it cured a screeching problem I had.

Bret