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Recent Installation of an AR-9 Based Audio System


Guest Goyescas2001

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Guest Goyescas2001

[Visual Link to referenced installation: http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/dcbo...esg_id=70&page=

Greetings forum readers. This is but my second posting to this forum, with a slightly altered username (previously under Goyescas, now Goyescas2001). For background, you are encouraged to first read (or re-read) my original post, found here:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/dcbo...ing_type=search

1. Historical brief/simple background

This essay concerns the ability of the AR9 loudspeaker to live-up to the claims of its designers. Readers of this forum are no doubt quite familiar with said claims, and if not, a simple search here will easily reveal more than enough information to influence your decision to further explore the matter.

The aforementioned preliminary experiment was motivated by dissatisfaction with the sound coming from the AR-9’s as installed in my living room. Over several weeks time, various placements and EQ settings were explored, all to no avail.

Confident that the speakers themselves were in fine condition (barrydor is an accomplished electrical engineer, and we are both musicians, I with a great deal of professional training and performing experience), and having followed the suggestions re placement and power provisions as described in the appreciatively extensive user manual, we proceeded to take what I might describe as the “Out-Of-Door-Experience,” sort of the audiophile Pepsi-Challenge, for those who recall such things.

The results from “Out-of-Door Experience” (again, please see the above referenced post) were clear – outrageously clear. That morning revealed my rather spacious room to be undersized and somewhat misshapen. The point here, as then, was that we realized the room led to our dissatisfaction with what he heard, not the actual loudspeakers. [For further elaboration on the aforementioned room and system, please refer to my system page on the Audio Asylum pages located here:

http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/1291.html]

2. Intentions

I have to admit that I was so proud to be the owner of such a fine pair of loudspeakers, I soon shifted my personal objective from finding a way to make them work in my room to finding a proper home. Then my father made a visit to my home, and following a discussion with him I realized that his finished basement might make a suitable home for the 9’s. In the SUV they went, with 1069 miles from FL to MI. Part of me just felt good knowing they were going to a good home – the other part of me was very curious to hear them in a different environment.

3. The Installation

After having the side-firing woofers professionally re-foamed by the famed “JBL Judy” of Oakland, MI, we set about the careful preliminary installation, which you see pictured in the links provided above.

The wood console was very carefully leveled and secured, and all of the equipment has recently been professionally refurbished, meaning everything should be considered equal, at least in performance terms, to mint condition. For example, the B&O Beocenter 7000 (version 1803) was beautifully refurbished by the famous B&O expert, Anthony Garza, of BeoMuse, currently too busy to accept new work. The amplifier was specifically re-engineered by barrydor to drive the 9’s.

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/dcbo...ing_type=search

4. The Room

This is a well-finished basement located in Brighton, MI, just north of Ann Arbor. The room is app 22x40x8, with padded indoor-outdoor carpet, thick ceiling tiles and textured wallpaper. A dehumidifier is deployed in the summer months (except for critical listening, as it is at times noisy).

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/dcbo...esg_id=70&page=

5. The Preliminary Results

Outstanding. Not what was expected, given several previous in-room results versus the “Out-Of-Door” experience. I heard a wonderfully diffuse “wall of sound.” Room interactions may have dramatized the excellence we heard outdoors – let’s face it: The Room is the most important component. I am now reasonably convinced the AR engineers realized their design objectives but failed almost miserably, like most speaker builders, to force the marketing team to describe and publish the room dimensions and characteristics –in general- which might best allow the consumer to accomplish meeting said objectives (aurally). This brings me round again to the original post and its point: right speaker + wrong room = wrong speaker; turned around…a different and better world indeed.

The main difference between the Out-of-Door experience and this wonderful real life installation was of course the degree of amplitude (indoor versus outdoor). No surprise there. What remains to be seen, or rather heard, is how our notes from the original experiment in the backyard, using the same software, will relate when we visit the “job site” again in the coming weeks (late July/early August 2007).

I look forward to posting said results, and of course welcome your comments and reactions…

Goyescas

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Guest Goyescas2001

I love the question - it has always amazed me, at least in some respects that "audiophiles" prefer to remove the grills from their speakers. This means the designer(s) are unable to provide the best conditions with the grills installed or are giving-in to some other (esp. aesthetic) considerations.

In this case, the grills stay on; anybody who developes an acoustic blanket probably considered the effects of the grills.

Note that we did listen sans grills in the Out-of-Door experience, so I think in the end this comes down to either listener preference or the lesser of two evils (slightly better looks - arguably - V slighly better sound).

In any event, the answer to your question is: yes.

-Goyescas

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Guest Goyescas2001

We did indeed consider bi-amping; we used several iterations of separates but could not discern a difference, which would render bi-amping worthwhile. This of course is not meant to rule-out biamplification entirely - it just did not suit this iteration.

Over the years I have heard bi-amplificaiton work well and make significant and positive contributions to the reproduction chain. In this case - and I think you'll love this - we purposely eliminated it! Based upon a great deal of prior evaluation and subsequently while installing more robust terminations (the originals required repair or replacement, so we went with Vampire terminations), we decided to _eliminate_ the opportunity to bi-wire.

I _think_ the reason to do one or the other comes down, in the end, to the amp. See what we use to drive this pair of 9's, courtesy of the genius barrydor (a registered user and founding member of this forum), pics included:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/dcbo...ing_type=search

This is a very robust amplifier indeed. It is all that is required for this installation, IMO.

In the end, I have owned countless pairs of speakers, and NEVER found either vertical or horizontal bi-amping to provide a significant benefit to mirror the associated expenses, although I agree there are likely many exceptions, esp. given what is out there on the market re amps.

To answer your question quickly: The amp we are using would, if it could, find the question, based on its own measured and subjective performance, insulting. It really is that good, thanks to barrydor's efforts.

Nevertheless, I encourage everybody to experiment with both vertical and horizontal biamplification...to each one's own!

Thanks for your inquiry!

-Goyescas

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Your reply would make a lot more sense if the AR-9 didn't have adjustment capabilities.

The fact that one can modify the output of three of the four drivers by way of the front-panel level controls makes moot the question of whether the "designers/developers" considered the grille to be integral.

Pretty much any speaker will sound different without their grilles in place - I was merely wondering whether the absence of the grille frame would have any effect on vertical dispersion within your low-ceilinged listening room.

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A shame that you neutered the bi-amp capability before trying the AR-9 with a pair of modern McIntosh autoformer amplifiers. My first pair of AR-9s were powered by an MC2205 with excellent results, and Mac amps have only gotten better & better over the years.

A modest-cost, but very fine option would be a pair of the classic Adcom 555II amplifiers - plenty of power, stable, and an excellent match for the 9's requirements.

The improvements provided should definitely be audible.

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My comparison isn't exact, but I suspect it's close enough.

I modified my AR90's to allow bi-amping, splitting the bass crossover out, not removing anything in the crossover.

I've tried several forms of bi-amping and will describe the results.

Simple bi-amping using two identical amplifiers. The results were incredibly underwhelming and the changes in sound were either non existant, minimal or worse, created a disjointed sound field.

Bi-amping using a DQLP-1 crossover, same amps. This eliminated the disjointed effect, but this is an active low pass filter only and it's roll off frequency is to high to work properly with the AR90.

Bi-amping using an active tube crossover (Marchand XM26), same amps. Crossover points set as AR recommended.

The results were, without exception, incredible and literally beyond description. My wife, who claims her hearing isn't that good (and can almost hear gnats cough) stood there with her mouth hanging open. The WAf was immediate and absolute.

Bi-amping, if done right, can produce some astounding advantages.

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That Marchand crossover is really nice, isn't it?

What brand of tube are you using?

I've never used an electronic crossover with the AR-9, but have had remarkable results from vertically bi-amping with identical amplifiers, and equalizing the woofers with an AudioControl Richter Scale - the flexibility provided by this device's 7-band, half-octave Low Frequency equalization will surprise anyone who listens to it.

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Guest Goyescas2001

You wrote:

>I was merely wondering whether the absence

>of the grille frame would have any effect on vertical

>dispersion within your low-ceilinged listening room.

If you were wondering why didn't you "merely" ask in the first place. I cannot read your mind, but I did answer your question. Here is the response to your new question:

A: Probably, but I do not know how to isolate and then measure vertical dispersion (in this case). The point is that they sound great with the grills engaged. Thanks for clarifying (well, adding specificty to) your original question.

Best,

-Goyescas

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Guest Goyescas2001

>

>A shame that you neutered the bi-amp capability before trying

>the AR-9 with a pair of modern McIntosh autoformer amplifiers.

We tried, as I mentioned above, a great deal of iterations re bi-amplification. The speakers, meanwhile, were not neutered and can easily be re-converted to bi-amp capability. My point remains the same - we PREFER them in their present state.

>My first pair of AR-9s were powered by an MC2205 with

>excellent results, and Mac amps have only gotten better &

>better over the years.

And your second pair of AR-9's - the numerous bi-polar outputs of the higher powered Adcom's in lieu of Mac amps?

>

>A modest-cost, but very fine option would be a pair of the

>classic Adcom 555II amplifiers - plenty of power, stable, and

>an excellent match for the 9's requirements.

>

>The improvements provided should definitely be audible.

The vertical and horizontal bi-amping experiments were with mint Adcom GFA series amplifiers. There were no repeatable improvements. Again, I have yet to be impressed with bi-amplification. I think the expense is hardly worth the effort, unless of course one needs something more robust to carry the bass, in which case it makes perfect senes UNLESS you find, as we did, a amp to drive them full-range. Just my opinion, but trust me, we did many experiments with biamplification. And Mahler's second symphony and Telarc full range pipe organs were used for the full-range tests...

Thanks for your opinion - I hope others find it useful.

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No - the Adcoms weren't ours, but they matcehd the AR-9 quite well (excellent extension, silent background, a nice sense of depth), and ran reliably at all levels. A pair of GFA 555II's would be my suggestion for listeners on a budget - the less powerful Adcom GFA amplifiers are *not* the same.

McIntosh is a qualitatively different thing - the autoformer circuit and substantial power capability (our MC402's are rated at 400 watts/channel into 2/4/8 ohms) of these amplifiers will provide an unparalleled listening experience with the AR-9. But the listener *will* need to decide if the dollars spent on getting the most from the AR-9 is worth it.

Unless, of course, you have access to a modified Hafler amp ;-)

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Guest Goyescas2001

>A pair of GFA 555II's

>would be my suggestion for listeners on a budget - the less

>powerful Adcom GFA amplifiers are *not* the same.

You are correct - thet are _not_ the same (that is why they have different model number designations - to easily distinguish one from another) :-)

In my experience the GFA 535 was the best of the lot: A single pair of bi-polar transistors forms the output stage. One theory of amplifier design holds that a single pair of output transistors will sound better than multiple pairs in parallel, despite the limited output power. In some amplifier lines, in which the more powerful models simply added out-put transistors and increased power supply size, the lower powered models sounded sweeter and cleaner. The now-classic Adcom GFA-535, 545, and 555 amplifiers are good examples of this principle in action.

We (that is you and I) seem to agree, although perhaps for different reasons) and I thank you for making the suggestion re the GFA 555-II's. That particular series of amps gave Adcom a nice run in the budget world, and I imagine they would easily provide the current required by these power hungry speakers.

If you wish to send those Mac's my way, just let me know!!! ;-)

-Goyescas

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I'm using the Telefunken 12AX7. I still have the original Sovtek tubes and hope I don't have a use for them. I have a 10 band EQ but haven't bothered to install it since we will very likely move the entire system once the basement remodeling is completed.

BTW,

My two amps are very conservatively rated at 250 watts per channel into 8 ohms, 500 watts per channel peak (again very conservative) and are 2 ohm stable but never advertised as such. I traded emails with a retired design engineer a few years ago who helped design them. THD is rated at .025 up to full rated power.

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Guest bjmsam

I bet they sound great with your modified Hafler. I agree that the GFA-535 is among the best sounding Adcom amps (I own a GFA-535, a GFA-535-II and a GFA-2535) and that a pair of 555-IIs should work well; mine sound fantastic with a GFA-585. If only the acoustic sweet spot in my room were at the preferred listening position...

25'3" x 16'10" x 10'

all walls solid plaster (definitely on the live side)

medium wall-to-wall carpeting over wooden subfloor

speakers on front (narrow) wall flanking projection TV

floor-to-ceiling bay window on back (narrow) wall with curtains

fireplace juts out from side (long) wall

pedestal chairs and table in center adjacent to fireplace

leather sofa opposite fireplace along side (long) wall

| --------------|

| [] [___] [] |

| |

| |

|# /|

|# ||

|# |

|# U TTT U |

|# |

| |

|--- ---|

_________/

It sounds best in the back! Track 1 of Telarc's An Organ Blaster Sampler is practically lethal back there.

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Guest Goyescas2001

Holy crap! That is some set-up. Does the plaster fall off the wall when you play the recording of the pipe organ as recorded by Telarc? It should! :-)

Thanks for taking the time to share your room dimensions and characteristics with us forum readers/posters. I hope more might do likewise and then chime-in to contribute to the knowledge base in terms of how these speakers set-up best - that is: "Bad, Good, Better, Best, or Incredible."

To wit: I am curious if others have had the opportunity to deploy the 9's in different rooms with correspondingly different sonic results along the lines mentioned in the subjective scale outlined above. What rooms worked best, worst, etc.?

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  • 4 weeks later...

I would really appreciate it if you could provide the contact information for "JBL Judy". I have some AR speakers that also need repair. I discovered eBay and started acquiring some of the TSW Series units at bargain prices.

Please also keep me in mind should you ever choose to replace your 9"s. I am a fellow Michigander (Sterling Heights) who enjoys and loves a pair of AR9's. I would love to acquire another pair.

Actually if anyone in this area is willing to do a little training I would love to learn the re-foaming skill for myself. I would gladly compensate that person for the time and effort to do a few units with me. I am hesitant to undertake this without a little hand holding for the initial experience.

P.S. I am very pleased for you, that you are now at a point where you can enjoy your speakers. Rather than some of the frustration you originally seemed to have encountered. Though I MUST make clear that I am not familiar with your entire thread.

Best Wishes and Good Listening

Jeff

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Guest Goyescas2001

>I would really appreciate it if you could provide the contact

>information for "JBL Judy". I have some AR speakers

>that also need repair.

You are looking for this fine person, whom I assure you does first class work, perhaps without peer:

Fulkerson Speaker Rebuilders

2711 W Drahner Rd, Oxford - (248) 628-5051

Ask for Judy and tell her that the dudes from Brighton sent you her way. If that does not refresh her memory, tell her the guys who mentioned a certain Seinfeld episode sent you to her.

>

>Please also keep me in mind should you ever choose to replace

>your 9"s. I am a fellow Michigander (Sterling Heights)

>who enjoys and loves a pair of AR9's. I would love to acquire

>another pair.

Know that I actually live in SW Florida, but should I wish to sell the 9's I gave to my dad in MI I will keep you in mind!

>P.S. I am very pleased for you, that you are now at a point

>where you can enjoy your speakers. Rather than some of the

>frustration you originally seemed to have encountered. Though

>I MUST make clear that I am not familiar with your entire

>thread.

>

>Best Wishes and Good Listening

>Jeff

Thanks Jeff - I too am very pleased with this particular installation.

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Thank you very much for your response.

I appreciate the "JUDY" details.

I was aware of the disparity between you and the speaker location. But as with real estate, with really big speakers, it is very much influenced by location. (P.S. I forgot to compliment you on your graciousness toward your father. A son that I am sure he is proud and appreciative of.)

Again thanks for taking the time to respond.

Best Wishes and Good Listening

Jeff

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  • 9 months later...
Guest pøøp

hi, some web users use text based browser and also, links may be dead. best to tell us the make and model, not just tell us the amp you use is "this one".

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