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Heavy Gauge Speaker Wire Changes Everything


Guest matty g

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Guest matty g

When I moved into my house some 10 plus years ago, I had so much other stuff to work on that I didn't pay much attention to the size of the wire I used when setting up my stereo system. The stereo was set up before the bed or anything went in, of course (priorities!). The wire I foolishly chose was some puny 16 gauge clear stuff from the local hardware store - fine for shorter runs. However, when I recently calculated the length of the wire run to my AR3a's, it was pushing 75'! That's way too long for such small wire and such power hungry speakers - what was I thinking back then?

Well, the other day I ripped all of that puny wire out and replaced it with 12 gauge stranded wire. This had a profound effect on the sound of my system. That is to say, it's like I have an entirely different and better system. I never would have believed that this setup could have sounded better, but it really does. The "sweet spots" over in the corners of the room where everything seems more pronounced are gone, now the whole room sounds like that. I always attributed that to room accoustics and placement only - I never thought about amp power being sapped by long wire runs with undersized wire. Mids and highs are right there, too - not buried in the back somewhere. The amp runs much cooler too, of course. Wish I'd done this 10 years ago!

Matt

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It's always great to resolve a problem, even if it seems as though I should have thought of the solution long ago......A 'Should had a V-8 moment'.

The gauge of wire is oten overlooked by people today, but it really matters if your're using longer distances. About five years ago I found a pair of 1958 KLH Model Sixes that came with their original KLH speaker wire and it is what looks to be 12 gauge with very nice connectors. I guess they knew best!

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Hi there;

When I was sucked into my first terrible stereo system, the smiling salesman gave me about 50' of 2 wire, perhaps 24 guage wire, if that, he made me feel that he was really giving me something special.

I later advanced to 18/2 lampcord and used it for some time.

About 10 years ago, I upgraded to 10 guage stranded oxygen free wire, perhaps Carol brand, definitely not a highend, high priced wire.

Being an electrical contractor, I based my decision more on current carrying capacity, rather than the ability to hide the wires.

If you are going to buy some, buy enough and then some extra and cut the length in half so that each speaker channel is the same distance from the amp.

I know that arc welding lead wires are larger, I am just being silly now.

I've never attempted to do a sound comparison test between various 2 wire cables of different guages.

I also have never done an A - B test between the drugstore variety shielded phono cables that I had used with my stereo prior to buying Kimber PBJ shielded cables.

After all, my AR turntable has it's OEM phono cable and tinned connectors, my AR Tuner has it's tinned connectors and OEM cables.

My Crown DC-300A and IC-150 has tinned connectors, as does my Double Dyna 400 and AR amplifier as well.

One article I read in, The Audio Amatuer Magazine about speaker cables resulted in a, multi-pair ribbon cable, where every odd wire was mated and every even wire mated and the reviewer/designer gave good marks to this setup.

One would best read that entire article to see what other wires were tested and their results.

Go to Frank Van Alstine's site to read about his commentary on, "SPECIAL CABLES", it is his opinion and well worth the time to read it.

If one is going to rough-in a room for hifi, they should use 12/3 BX not my previously recommended 12/2 BX electrical cable, same amount of work to install, just more expensive wire.

This will allow for bi-amping or bi-wiring.

This will give them the current carrying capacity but much more important, RF shielding.

I'm very happy to read that someone here went the distance and hears and also appreciates the improvement of upgrading to heavy guage wire.

How about fuses?

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Guest matty g

Thanks for that link, Carl. I did twist the wires, and drilled out every joist in the basement where they run to keep them away from the power lines. I'm driving them with a 130 wpc Marantz 2330B, so it looks like I'm in the right gauge range. What a difference!

Matt

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Hi Matt;

What type of wire did you use, please?

HPN wire is a heater rated wire and often used for toasters and kettles, etc.

It was customary for me to see and use HPN stranded wire in heating equipment, especially for the electric motor connection.

Years later I would see the insulation crumble and it made for shortening to get to a section where the insulation was soft and flexible again.

I read about using armored BX cable several decades ago in a hifi magazine for roughing in sound systems in homes.

When running speakers cables in the rooms, it was also advised to not parallel speaker cables with electrical cords and if one must, cross over at ninety degrees for minimal interaction.

I wrote here several years ago of my only RF experience, that I am aware of.

On my one wall was the electrical outlet and telephone outlet.

One evening I was using the telephone and when it came near the electrical cable there was a lot of noise.

The BX cable has a high temperature insulation and is not the cable referred to at that site.

By using 12/3 BX cable, the wires are shielded from RF, and are more than adequate for most all of our hifi needs.

The main warning is do not every use regular electrical outlets but perhaps banana plugs for all connections.

Of course the same boxes may be used but using them for no other cabling pass throughs or connections.

As a side note, when I was an apprentice, the common furnace thermostat wire was about 22/2, or lighter, I do not know what it was rated at.

LVT 19/2, a solid conductor with high temperature insulation, is the current standard, here at least.

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The main consideration for speaker wire is DC resistance. This is easily calculated for any wire listed in the NEC wire table, it's simply a matter of gage and length. With lower impedence loads like AR3 it becomes more significant of course because it is a larger percentage of the total load the amplifier output stage sees, especially if it is a very high damping factor amplifier (very low output impedence.) I've found that 16 gage speaker wire for most installations is an excellent choice which is what I use but there are some who recommend for longer lengths 12 gage low voltage landscaping wire also reasonably inexpensive at Home Depot. For some reason, there are those who swear that the thick orange jacketed heavy duty extension cords make excellent speaker wire. Since conductivity is a surface phenomoenon, there may be some advantage to stranded over solid wire especially at higher frequencies but I'm really not sure. I think the difference is in the tenths of decibels at most. Audioholics has some well researched postings on it. You can trade off capacitance and inductance any way you want to. Place the wires closer together and series inductance goes down but capacitance goes up. Separate them and it's the other way around. It's a very expensive way to buy an LCR circit and the C and L are usually so small as to make inaudible changes. Bizzare arrangements such as weaving a tapestry of fifty pairs of CAT5 telephone wire can make a tank (resonant) circuit hanging on the output of an amplifier which in some cases could send it into spontaneous oscillation destroying it. One brand I won't mention had reportedly doomed more than one amplifier this way I'd heard about. The audiophile wire advocates have endless tales of their wonderous discoveries, each one a world beater making everything else worthess. There are as many arrangements as you can think of and as many implausible explanations with no proof to match. Strand jumping, fermi velocity, dielectric properties, cryogenic treatment, monolithic crystals (each time you bend it the crystal becomes less and les monolithic but they don't know that) you name it, there's a wire with its proponents to fit the bill.

I've yet to see any evidence that a speaker wire could be an effective RF antenna to the point where it could affect a loudspeaker. I lived on the infield of an RF antenna, 6 blocks from the WTFM radio station transmitter for years. (There was also a radio amateur who operated a short wave radio station across the street for a few years.) We got WTFM on channel 6 on our TV sets, some people got it from the metal fillings in their teeth, I got it in my high gain magnetic phono preamp section but NEVER in the unshielded speaker wire. This makes sense because at best with suitable termination a radio transmitter will induce a few dozen to a few hundred microvolts in a suitably terminated load, not a low impedence loudspeaker load. This level is just too low to affect a loudspeaker system. I've found most spurious noise induced in sound systems comes either as the result of direct radiation into the preap stage if it's unshielded, through coupling to interconncets from power cords, especially the phono stage, and from the power supply as a result of SMPS (switching mode power supplies) or other switches like incandescent light dimmers (my bane.) In older equipment, reversing the polarity of the power cord plug can sometimes reduce residual hum. Right now I've got a lot of equipment stacked tightly in a small cabinet and it's a problem especially because one receiver doesn't have a metal enclosure to provide shielding.

In careful listening tests where an interconnect was compared to a shunt using the tape monitor circuit and source/tape switch, I have never found a $1 interconnect which was not indistinguishable from the shunt. IMO, this is the only valid test for the audible effect of wires, not A against B but A against a shunt. This is hardly surprising to me since they also provide a video connection indistinguishable from the RF input on the best TV sets I have, 36" Sony Wega Xtra brights. This requires 350 times as much bandwidth as an audio signal. I'll save my money for other things than audiophile wires.

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Guest matty g

Hi -

The wire I made the twisted pair out of was just ordinary THHN #12 stranded, the kind we use in conduit in commercial applications. I'm sure that wire fanatics will have a problem with this, but I'm thinking like an electrician and looking at length, load and resistance rather than capacitance and inductance. I doubt that I'd be able to hear that difference with the system that I have, anyway.

The landscaping wire is a good idea, Soundminded, and it would've made the pull much easier.

Interconnecting cable quality is an issue that is lost on me, I have to admit. The only reason I swap out those cables is if they are obviously cheesey - like the original cables on my Thorens TD125 mkII. For such a nice turntable with a great arm it shure has some low grade interconnects. I kind of like the originals on my AR XA and XB tables - they seem heftier than most originals. The Dual 1200 series tables come with some pretty substandard cables, too - and the ends always seem to go bad. I've never had an AR cable end go bad, but that might just be luck.

Matt

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>The wire I made the twisted pair out of was just ordinary THHN

>#12 stranded, the kind we use in conduit in commercial

>applications.

This should be ample wire capacity for your stereo.

>The landscaping wire is a good idea, Soundminded, and it

>would've made the pull much easier.

I'm not familiar with this type of cable.

>Interconnecting cable quality is an issue that is lost on me,

>I have to admit.

Join the crowd, Matt, there is a million cables out there at least.

If you happen to have a back issue of Stereophile where Fabio was interviewed.

I believe it was mentioned that he had a closet full of interconnects.

The only reason I swap out those cables is if

>they are obviously cheesey - like the original cables on my

>Thorens TD125 mkII. For such a nice turntable with a great arm

>it shure has some low grade interconnects.

>I kind of like the originals on my AR XA and XB tables - they seem heftier than most originals.

If you look at the AR-XA wires coming down from the underside of the arm through the grommet into the underbelly, they are very tiny.

If you remove the sliding cover underneath and see the terminal strip where those wires connect to, it is amazing that all the beautiful music travels down those very fine wires.

My memory is not as good as it used to be, but, I believe the AR-XA has a total capacitance of 125pf for all of the cable and including the headshell.

It may be in our AR library, the AR turntable cartridge installation instructions and capacitance for a number of cartridges of old.

To properly match the correct capacitance with the cartridge, a small pf capacitor could be added on the terminal strip under the base for each channel.

The Dual 1200 series tables come with some

>pretty substandard cables, too - and the ends always seem to

>go bad.

>I've never had an AR cable end go bad, but that might just be luck.

I also have never had a AR-XA connector go bad, touch wood.

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Hi again;

Polk either made, or had made for them, cables, which I believe caused serious amplifier problems many, many years ago.

This is the only cable story that I remember reading about, in part at least.

Does anyone else know more about this single issue, which I am sure was rectified long, long ago.

I am certain it was speaker cables but I may be wrong.

The details may be of interest to those experimenting with speaker cabling or making interconnects in their homes, or even looking to do so in the future.

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  • 9 months later...

I've used #10 for years. TAS actually did a speaker wire test where a Home Depot extension chord came out close to the high end stuff. Even more exotic is using Cat5 cable.

One additional tweak I rarely see mentioned which is inexpensive and will change your sound dramatically: use hospital grade outlets. These can be special ordered over the net and have a green dot on them. Hospitals use them in operating rooms, places where there is oxygen, etc. because the contacts are extremely tight and there is not risk of sparking. In addition they are designed so the plug does not easily pull out of the outlet. You can also replace all your plugs with hospital grade plugs. Cost per outlet is about $20 and will be the best $20 you ever spent on your system.

The Munster people sell a high-priced outlet strip that is essentially just a bunch of hospital outlets.

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Well, the other day I ripped all of that puny wire out and replaced it with 12 gauge stranded wire. This had a profound effect on the sound of my system.

You've just hit-upon the single issue which has had the greatest negative effect on my opinion of so many "show me" audio skeptics.

Years ago I had the same reaction when I switched from 18 gauge to some really big wire (I don't remember the gauge, but it was silly overkill. It was hard to bend flat and wouldn't fit in any terminal on anything.) You can find link after link after link on the internet arguing this either way, and in some cases, both ways (Nelson Pass speaks of "fixing" an amplifier simply by using *smaller* gauge wire.) As soundminded said, the chief thing here is probably resistance, but there are other things too, making it tough to get an absolute fix (a scientifically perfectly inarguable fix) on what thing is producing what effect - exactly and without possibly of equivocation.

My uncle, an EE with a good head on his shoulders, once defended his use of 18 gauge wire by forcing me to sit down and watch him "do the maths" in order to *prove* to me that it was not possible to hear the difference in wire at audio frequencies at wattages in question over any sane length. I watched. He proved it all right. The length it took to have effect on frequency was several kilometers. Resistance was some ridiculous number, too, like 300 feet. The wattage it took to have an effect was ______ (I don't recall, insert some large number over 1,000 watts here), but far greater than anything we deal with in audio.

All he ended-up convincing me of was that his analysis was incomplete.

You could have heard a difference with a 15 foot run, too, I'd wager.

It's also the reason I believe people when they talk about this insanely expensive speaker wire. If I can hear a difference between 18 gauge wire and 12 gauge, then I believe that they can hear a difference in the $2,500/ft. cryogenic-immersion molecule-by-molecule built East Tibetan prayed-over cable, and the silver infused amphetamine coated special cable with connectors made from robot toenails.

While the scientists among us *know for a fact* that these cables have R, L, & C as their only practical characteristics, by "doing the math" and proving to an engineering certainty (with math and words) that there IS NO DIFFERENCE, they inadvertently promote the voodoo by "proving" something that simply isn't true and undermining their credibility.

As an aside: It amazes me that when a scientist asserts the power of the placebo effect they make the absolute assumption that everyone is equally easily influenced by the power of suggestion. I am unaware of any such data. In fact, I believe that every use of the placebo effect as an explanation for anything I've ever read is rooted in statistics. The "60% of the control group reported feeling better; 20% reported a non-existent side-effect, and 20% reported no change" sort of thing. That proves that not everyone taking a placebo is deceived into reporting an effect. It also does not rule out that of the 60% who reported feeling better, some portion of them really *DID* see the "effect" for reasons having nothing at all to do with their taking a placebo. You might suggest that they blame it on the placebo and get agreement, but that doesn't prove anything.

But in the audio world it is assumed that every listener is "fooled" by some ridiculousness and are under the influence of outside triggers or expectations on the basis that some, maybe even *all* are when put under pressure and then lied-to. (Setting-up a false expectation and then demanding the listener prove their ability to pick-out the difference where none really exists ,or be forced to admit to being just as big a fool as everyone else is, does not make for a controlled test of the skill of the listener, in my opinion. It makes a nice check of ego, however.)

If objective listening were not possible, we'd have no basis for the size of a decibel or human hearing's frequency range. Now watch carefully as those who are slaves to dogma provide a multitude of links to internet articles *proving* this is a false assertion. It must be a terrible thing to be that under the intellectual influence of what amounts to a fundamentalist religion. But even if there are facts in their opinion, there is no truth to it. Someone who *expects* there to be no difference is as influenced by their expectation as the person who expects there to be. Objectivity is a nearly impossible thing to prove and truly is easily defeated.

Don't get me wrong here. I have a difference of perception of left/right balance depending on if a bright light is shining in one of my eyes, or if it's dark. Any, and I do mean any, noise coming from one side or the other really goofs-with my ability to listen, and funniest of all is when I don't notice that my selector switch has my outboard DAC out of the circuit until there's an "event" which points-it-out to me. (Now *there's* proof that maybe my investment was questionable.) I've preferred cheap interconnects to expensive ones and then back again depending on musical content, etc, which only goes to show that "preference" is useless as a yardstick and even if we can perceive tiny differences in R, L, & C in our wires... so what?

But what my admission of imperfect perception does NOT prove is that when I switch the DAC back in, there isn't an improvement, or when I thicken (or thin) my wires there isn't an improvement.

It just leaves you with this whole, "I'm going spend how much on super-wire to get the same result I could have gotten with the right piece of scrap from a junkyard, neither of which I'll notice was removed when I go to listen a week from now?" question.

But back to the wire: You've heard it, I've heard it, and countless others have heard it. What would be fun is to participate in one of these shoot-outs where really odd stuff is tested, along with the super-expensive wire. Someone referenced one of these in this thread.

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As an aside: It amazes me that when a scientist asserts the power of the placebo effect they make the absolute assumption that everyone is equally easily influenced by the power of suggestion.

Well, everybody isn't, or we'd all be saving our pennies for the Tibetan speaker wire.

I'm the opposite, I guess. I couldn't hear any difference between 16ga lamp cord and the free roll of 24ga wire the guy at the stereo store threw into the bag when I got my first stereo. The only real advantage I ever realized from heavier wire was that the heavier stuff didn't fray as easily when I moved the system around.

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I couldn't hear any difference between 16ga lamp cord and the free roll of 24ga wire the guy at the stereo store threw into the bag when I got my first stereo.

See, that doesn't surprise me.

The Nelson Pass comment was about some big, fussy amplifier and a pair of very low impedance speakers. It makes *perfect* sense that in that case the added resistance from the smaller wire would help keep the amp working within its operating parameters, stop an oscillation, and sound better.

See?

It's blanket statements like, "You can't hear a difference," that just stink like a recently run-over skunk.

So you couldn't hear any difference in 24 gauge and 16 gauge, huh? Hmmmm. Did you ever try 10 gauge? ;-)

You didn't say what the equipment was. If you had a low current 15w/channel receiver playing 8-tracks of Donovan (or reference performances of Caruso) through a pair of Panasonic Thrusters (or equivalent), I wouldn't expect you to be able to hear a difference if you used 8 gauge wire. I'm not sure you'd hear a difference if you did the speakers with a pair of 12 gauge shotgun shells, either. :blink:

Bret

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The wire I foolishly chose was some puny 16 gauge clear stuff from the local hardware store - fine for shorter runs. However, when I recently calculated the length of the wire run to my AR3a's, it was pushing 75'! That's way too long for such small wire and such power hungry speakers - what was I thinking back then?

Matt

Hi again;

When I re-read this topic I see now that I missed reading this number, "75 feet", regarding your speaker wire length to your AR-3A's.

Would this be a twin lead to a single speaker, the longest or shortest or both added together in length?

Twin lead to a speaker is where one wire is to and one wire is from the speaker, so that a 25 foot length of twin lead is actually a fifty foot run for the amplifier output.

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I did an insane number of speaker wire tests back in my nutso audiophile days. Back then I was buying the latest/greatest stuff on almost a monthly basis to ensure I had the "finest" stereo around. At that time my hearing exceeded the hifi standard 20-20KHZ and I could hear dog whistles and ultrasonic senders that were used in department stores. There was a Sears near us that I couldn't even go inside it was so painful. That Sears wouldn't bother me now that my hearing signs off completely at around 13khz.

Anyway, I did a LOT of wire testing (as well as amp/preamp testing, cartridge testing, CD player, you name it). I could hear differences in many components - some were noticeably different. But wire? I never heard any difference WHEN BLIND TESTED. So I found that I totally agreed with McIntosh labs demonstrations...If I BELIEVED I was going to hear a difference in the wire, I did. But if I didn't know the wire was being changed, I didn't. One of my favorite "testing" moments was at a friends house where he was demoing a new amp for me against his old one. We were in the listening chairs while his wife was doing the component switching. Every time the new amp was switched in he would say something like, "See how the trebles have a much smoother and realistic quality" etc. Turns out, his wife wasn't switching the amps at all! She was just saying she did. He was HIGHLY P1ssed but that was one of those "epiphany" moments for me in my stereo life.

Of course, it's possible that even though I had very excellent hearing, there was something deficient about it that could hear the differences in some components but not wiring. Heck, I don't know. But, in any case, I haven't used anything but normal hardware store wire for speaker connection since then.

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So you couldn't hear any difference in 24 gauge and 16 gauge, huh? Hmmmm. Did you ever try 10 gauge? ;-)

You didn't say what the equipment was. If you had a low current 15w/channel receiver playing 8-tracks of Donovan (or reference performances of Caruso) through a pair of Panasonic Thrusters (or equivalent), I wouldn't expect you to be able to hear a difference if you used 8 gauge wire. I'm not sure you'd hear a difference if you did the speakers with a pair of 12 gauge shotgun shells, either. :blink:

No, I have enough trouble getting the 16ga into the speaker terminals. :)

The original setup was a 35wpc Kenwood receiver and a pair of AR-2ax's. From there I moved to a 60wpc AR amp and the same speakers. Primary source is an AR turntable with an ADC XLM cartridge. The speakers are 6ft apart with the amp in between them, so allowing some extra wire for routing in and out of bookcases, the leads are two 6ft lengths.

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... a pair of AR-2ax's. ... the leads are two 6ft lengths.

This might explain much. I love a good 2ax. The 2ax is pretty easy to drive, and if it means anything to you to have someone agree with you, I took the huge cable off of mine (which was so thick and heavy that it kept causing a problem at the knurled nut connectors) and used 18 gauge cord, never heard a difference, never looked back.

There's something special <and a little sinister> about the AR 12" woofers. They seem to like the big wire, but then, they also like really big amplifiers.

And your runs are really short, too.

The only amplifier/receiver difference I ever heard with my 2ax's was when I put a really huge amplifier on them, but they also changed rooms, so... who knows where the difference really was?

Just for the record - I'm using RCA wire from Home Depot everywhere now. It is 14 gauge, was relatively cheap, and lays flat nicely, and I'm happy. I probably couldn't hear the difference if I moved down to 16 gauge, or up to 8 gauge. (short runs, no monster amp)

Like I said, it's the pontificating that "wire isn't audible" that raises my hackles - because under some combination of circumstances, it is. I know what they mean, and I know they are right (about everything having to be within its limits), but for the average Joe, a blanket pronouncement like that only serves to raise doubts in otherwise great information.

If you're tired of hearing me rant, just stop here.

I've got this little cheap-o Panasonic HT receiver, "class D" 100w amplifiers (digital to the output). I connect the TOS-link from a Sony CD player, hook-up a pair of AR10pi's, set them to their 8 Ohm setting, and go "eewwwwww, yuck!" Why? I can take that same receiver, connect it to a pair of AR14s, and other than having to give it just a little bass boost leave it alone, and think, "Wow! Good grief that sounds good!" Why? (18 gauge wire, BTW - can't get the big stuff in the friction connectors... yeah, friction connectors) Switch the 10pi's to the integrated. "That's nice." Switch the 14s to the integrated... "Okay, so.... I don't hear much difference.' (there have been times I've thought the little Panasonic was better through the midrange on the 14s)

I'm not an equipment snob or a wire snob, but I think I might just be a snob when it comes to any blanket statement about audibility. I don't like them. I think a much more honest answer to audibility questions might be, "It depends."

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Like I said, it's the pontificating that "wire isn't audible" that raises my hackles - because under some combination of circumstances, it is. I know what they mean, and I know they are right (about everything having to be within its limits), but for the average Joe, a blanket pronouncement like that only serves to raise doubts in otherwise great information.

I'm not fond of blanket statements either, though I think I'm on pretty safe ground saying that wire wouldn't be audible to *me,* except for the obvious need to get bigger as it gets longer. Where I start to roll my eyes is when people start talking about exotic alloys and metal treatments. And then there was that set of speaker leads that was up on ebay a while back for $19,000...

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Guest matty g
Hi again;

When I re-read this topic I see now that I missed reading this number, "75 feet", regarding your speaker wire length to your AR-3A's.

Would this be a twin lead to a single speaker, the longest or shortest or both added together in length?

Twin lead to a speaker is where one wire is to and one wire is from the speaker, so that a 25 foot length of twin lead is actually a fifty foot run for the amplifier output.

Hi Vern -

That was 75 feet average to both speakers from the receiver which is roughly in the middle of the two. The length was for the twin lead (I guess 75' there, 75' back). This has been a most satisfactory setup, as the receiver, turntables, open reel deck and cd burner can all be in the hallway built-in unit while the 3A systems sit horizontally on shelves over on the living room wall about 6' up near the corners. The run is very long, but the #12 takes my mind off it - and the amp outputs are definately cooler to the touch when driven at the same volume for the same amount of time. I know how the system sounded before (such as where I would stand to get the sound I wanted) and how it sounded after, and there was an improvement for sure. I use no equalizers and as a matter of fact I switch the tone controls off, so there is no chance of the sound being colored from the amp's output. I think just having a heavier gauge wire for such a long run makes a real differance - nothing fancy or exotic, just less resistance between point A and point B.

Matt

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Hi Vern -

That was 75 feet average to both speakers from the receiver which is roughly in the middle of the two. The length was for the twin lead (I guess 75' there, 75' back). This has been a most satisfactory setup, as the receiver, turntables, open reel deck and cd burner can all be in the hallway built-in unit while the 3A systems sit horizontally on shelves over on the living room wall about 6' up near the corners. The run is very long, but the #12 takes my mind off it - and the amp outputs are definately cooler to the touch when driven at the same volume for the same amount of time. I know how the system sounded before (such as where I would stand to get the sound I wanted) and how it sounded after, and there was an improvement for sure. I use no equalizers and as a matter of fact I switch the tone controls off, so there is no chance of the sound being colored from the amp's output. I think just having a heavier gauge wire for such a long run makes a real differance - nothing fancy or exotic, just less resistance between point A and point B.

Matt

Hi again Matt;

See if you can find out the resistance from your wire supplier for that wire per foot or whatever figures may be available and current carrying capacity, please.

A point of interest I thought of earlier this evening regarding wire guages and current capacity in my life.

I bought a new 30 metre or 100' extention cord for my electric lawnmower a few years ago.

The cord is rated at 10 amp capacity and the lawnmower is around 8 amps.

After cutting the grass I went to un-plug the cord and the end of it it was more than just warm.

The run of wire in this case was 100' x 2 = 200' plus the internal house wiring x 2.

My threading machine used about 12 - 14 amps, running and threading 2" steel pipe.

Whenever I started it up the house lights would dim.

I invested in a heavy duty 10 guage extention cord and never had a problem with it stalling down.

My point is, I may have been able to use the lawnmower cord, with the threading machine, but the cord may have also caught fire, besides burning out the motor at over $1,000.00.

In all of my past reading I am finding it difficult to remember where I read some of it.

I believe it is at the Crown Audio site that they mention air coming out of the woofers cone center at about 150+/- degrees celcius.

In other words hot!

Resistance climbs as the wires heat up.

You have used nice heavy wire at least in your installation.

The fact that your amplifier is now running cooler is a nice bonus.

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The fact that your amplifier is now running cooler is a nice bonus.

I guess I must be some kind of a volume level weenie. The biggest source of heat I've ever experienced from any of my receivers or amplifiers has always been the light bulbs in the front panels.

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Guest matty g
I guess I must be some kind of a volume level weenie. The biggest source of heat I've ever experienced from any of my receivers or amplifiers has always been the light bulbs in the front panels.

Heh heh - volume level weenie - that's a good one!

I guess I drive them sort of hard, for rather long periods of time. I'll often listen to some jazz programs on the radio or a couple of reels of tape, and that's pretty bass heavy stuff for at least a couple of hours at a time at enough of a volume level to appreciate the beauty of the speakers. The outputs get pretty toasty on all of my amps in various systems (Adcom GFA-555, Marantz 2330-B, Pioneer SX-850) although they are all driving AR systems which like lots of power.

Since that original post I have replaced the wire on all of the systems in the house with heavier gauge wire (landscape lighting wire seems to be the most flexible and user freindly) and my amps and I are very happy.

I will say this, however - on the system with the Adcom 555-pro amp and the AR TSW-610 speakers I could not detect an audible difference between the skinny wire and the #12 wire, but I'll bet the amp is happier. I was sort of expecting a dramatic change like that of the other system, but such was not the case. That run was about 50' per speaker (one way).

Matt

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Heh heh - volume level weenie - that's a good one!

I guess I drive them sort of hard, for rather long periods of time. I'll often listen to some jazz programs on the radio or a couple of reels of tape, and that's pretty bass heavy stuff for at least a couple of hours at a time at enough of a volume level to appreciate the beauty of the speakers. The outputs get pretty toasty on all of my amps in various systems (Adcom GFA-555, Marantz 2330-B, Pioneer SX-850) although they are all driving AR systems which like lots of power.

Since that original post I have replaced the wire on all of the systems in the house with heavier gauge wire (landscape lighting wire seems to be the most flexible and user freindly) and my amps and I are very happy.

I will say this, however - on the system with the Adcom 555-pro amp and the AR TSW-610 speakers I could not detect an audible difference between the skinny wire and the #12 wire, but I'll bet the amp is happier. I was sort of expecting a dramatic change like that of the other system, but such was not the case. That run was about 50' per speaker (one way).

Matt

Hi again;

Pre-conditioning is or was at 1/3 or 1/2 volume for a period of time prior to their testing.

This I believe generated the most heat and this is where most older amplifiers failed the approval tests.

As far as standard twinlead speaker wire goes, I do not believe you will hear any differences between, say, 18/2 or 16/2 lampcord.

For that matter, between, 18/2 and 12/2 either.

Even better, 10/2 which is what I use.

This is standard fine guage copper wire with or without tinned coating.

Where we may hear a difference and it will be subtle, is the composition of the external wire coating and the proximity of the wires to AC wires and RF influences.

If the wires are shielded then there should be no audible difference.

When it comes to the fancy wires there is different methods of assembly, twisting and oxy free, etc.

Resistance, capacitance and inductance can and will cause an audible, but not necessarily good difference.

There has been at least one well known brand that was the cause of amplifier destruction in some cases.

My little concern in buying cheap speaker cables is how does the insulation react over a period on time with heat and vapours.

I have written in past write-ups about my heating experiences and using HPN heater wire for some electrical repairs.

In a lot of cases the insulation of the older wire was brittle and broke off into pieces.

This black twinlead was used as standard wires in heating equipment for many decades.

It was the same wire used for kettles, toasters and the like.

Had I used it as hidden speaker wire, I would be nervous about shorts.

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