Guest Ron Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Hello,I'm looking for a good amplifier/pre-amp setup that I can use to run a pair of AR3s. While I like the fact that the speakers are "vintage" I don't feel much obligation to getting a vintage amp/pre-amp. I'm mainly interested in assuring sound and ease of use. Compact (integrated?) size would be great if it is possible. I don't tend to listen to high volumes; my interest is in getting these speakers to run at low/mid volume ranges for a room that is about 14'x18'.Price is an issue, of course, and I'd like to keep this within a $3-400 range. I suppose the first question would be: is that price range possible? And after that, would any of you have any recommendations regarding what I should look for?Thanks in advance,Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest postjob62 Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 AudioSource Amp One/A = ~ $200. from Parts Express. 100 very clean wpc @ 4 ohms (important). High current and all you need. Has built-in level controls, so if you're a purist or minimalist and want to really hear the music, you can run your CDP straight in with no preamp (providing that your CDP has ~2.0 volts output level-most newer ones do). You cant beat this amp for the $.When I feel the need for a preamp (usually listening at lower volume levels) I use the preamp section of one of my old Marantz 2230 receivers. Don't laugh until you've tried it-the sound is spectacular, at least to me. These are available for $100.-$150. all over eBay. A bonus is that if you want to skip the power amp altogether, especially listening at lower levels as you describe, the 2230 (which really puts out 40-45 wpc) will drive your 3's just fine by itself. The 2230 laughs at a 4 ohm load- mine don't even get warm!So there you have it. $150. to $350. and you are in business.Good luck!Broken Record (Ed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ron Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Ed,Thanks very much. The Marantz 2230 portion of your note is particularly useful. In fact I already bought an AudioSource Amp One/A along with its Pre-Amp counter-part. The Pre-Amp gave me problems and I'm going to return it (one channel would drop out consistently). I'll look for the Marantz...hope to find one. Thanks again,Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest postjob62 Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Hi Ron,You've actually helped me too. Another menber and myself had been talking about trying the AudioSource preamp. We figured that since the amp was so good, maybe...You will be shocked at the 2230. Do not be tempted by other similar models such as the 2245 (not as warm and sweet) or especially the 2270 (terrific with 8 ohms but suffers great embarrassment when facing a 4 ohm load). Stay away from the "B" models too, since they are not capacitance-coupled. I've never owned a tube amp, but the 2230 is said to sound very tubey. Do your due diligence on eBay. These can be a little like vintage AR speakers on ebay-sometimes the original purchase is just a jumping in point. I've been lucky so far; I have three and only had to pliug 'em in, so it can be done. Ask lots of questions.BTW, when using mine as a complete receiver with 3a's, I use the "loudness" button, have the hi and lo filters disengaged, and the tone controls flat. It gives a great low-volume vintage AR experience. Keep the volume no more than at 12:00-1:00 and you should be OK. If usinf the 2230 as a preamp into the Audiosource, peg the AS level controls wide open and adjust volume with the 2230 preamp. You'll never need much more than 9:00-10:00.Good Luck,Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ron Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Ed,You "read my mind" re: my search for the 2230 on Ebay. I found lots of "improved models" and was wondering what that might mean (good or bad) for my AR3s. Sounds like the 2230 is the one. There's also a 2235 out and about. Any thoughts on that one? Thanks also for the settings tips. As for the AudioSource Pre-Amp, I'd definitely be wary. I may well have had an isolated dud but that didn't help re: my own nervousness.Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest postjob62 Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Ron, The 2235 is from an entirely different generation even though the model #'s are similar. Best to stick with the 2230 period. Just take your time and ask lots of questions-lots!Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ron Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Ed,Will do...thanks again for all your help.Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bret Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 I have one of these and am pleased with it running a set of AR-10pi speakers (at least as hard to drive as a 3a). It's in the $600 range.http://www.jolida.com/catalogue/models/jd1501rc.shtmlI have never seen a bad review of this and is what I would have bought if I hadn't bought the Jolida piece:http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?...rs&product=21.1Seperates are great - but I would be very suspect of any preamp I could get for under about $400. Just the volume controls (remote) of good preamplifiers are $300.But it depends what you're looking for, of course. If you just want it to "sound good" there are a lot of receivers out there for under $400 that'll do the job.Exceptional stuff costs more, of course.Bret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ron Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 Bret,Thanks, that setup looks great. I've contemplated getting something a little more polished and these two suggestions look really good. I'm not sure yet which way I'll go but I very much appreciate your comments.Regards,Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David in MA Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 Bret,Do you know if these are comparable to NAD C372 or C162/C272 combe? I heard NAD C372 and it sounded great. In fact, I'm thinking about either of these options.Anyone else use NAD amps? Any comments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest OldRelayer Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 David. What are you using now and why are you considering another amp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David in MA Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 >David. What are you using now and why are you considering>another amp?>>I'm using my friend's ARCAM alpha 7 integrated amp, definitely not a very good sounding amp. I've tested another friend's onkyo integra series receiver as well but I'm sort of in the market for my own amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tysontom Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 >Hello,>>I'm looking for a good amplifier/pre-amp setup that I can use>to run a pair of AR3s. While I like the fact that the speakers>are "vintage" I don't feel much obligation to>getting a vintage amp/pre-amp. I'm mainly interested in>assuring sound and ease of use. Compact (integrated?) size>would be great if it is possible. I don't tend to listen to>high volumes; my interest is in getting these speakers to run>at low/mid volume ranges for a room that is about 14'x18'.>>Price is an issue, of course, and I'd like to keep this within>a $3-400 range. I suppose the first question would be: is that>price range possible? And after that, would any of you have>any recommendations regarding what I should look for?>>Thanks in advance,>>Ron>Ron,One good solution for your budget might be the NAD amplifier or receiver. You might try going out on eBay and finding a NAD receiver, such as the model 7155: http://cgi.ebay.com/NAD-RECEIVER-7155-STER...1QQcmdZViewItemor the model 7140: http://cgi.ebay.com/NAD-STEREO-RECEIVER-72...1QQcmdZViewItemNADs are very powerful, and have lots of "headroom." For example, the 7240 produces a clean 40watts/channel continuous, and about 150-200 watts peak power by using its 6dB-headroom "Power Envelope" power supply. NADs also work very well into 4- and 2-ohm speaker loads -- right in the AR-3 territory. The NAD design produces lots of current, just what the AR-3 needs. It should not be surprising that NAD engineers were once associated with Acoustic Research.--Tom Tyson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David in MA Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 Tom,> It should not be>surprising that NAD engineers were once associated with>Acoustic Research.>Very interesting...I guess this is an unofficial endorsement of NAD amps for AR speakers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest OldRelayer Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 David, I am now 60 years old and have learned a bit on the way. I don't buy new cars anymore and lately I have applied that same philosphy to stereo equipment. I don't know much about other amps but my experience with 70's Marantz amps has been nothing but positive. For a fraction of the cost of a new Nad you could buy a really nice Marantz amp. Even if you had to spend a few more dollars and have it brought up to factory spec, it would still be a fraction of the cost of a new amp. Right now there are a couple of nice ones, a 1122 DC which would drive your AR-9's quite nicely, a 4140 which drive my 3a's quite nicely, I am sure there are others, just a quick look. I even have a guy up here in Muckluck Maine that does my amps, I am sure you can find a guy down in civilization. Oh, on occasion an AR amp comes up on Ebay, I had a friend that had one of those and it was quite nice.Just a thought.Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 Hi David,Here's what I'm using with my AR LST's and my AR58'sI'm currently driving the LST's with a Crown DC300A amplifier and a NAD 1600 monitor series tuner/preamp. THe NAD because it has remote control functions and MC and MM phono inputs. I also use my modified Crown IC150 and IC150A preamps. I have recapped both IC 150's and installed Burr Brown op amps in place of the originals.I also have a NAD 2700 power amp at 150wpc and a Kenwood M2A at 200 wpc. The Crown power amps (I have 2) are the clear winners in driving the LST's. The NAD and Kenwood are excellent and I was more than satisfied until I hooked up the Crown. The Crown amp seems a tad clearer in the mids and highs but that could be my imagination. All were excellent in this regard. The NAD and Kenwood are excellent in the bass but the Crown is awesome. The low end is cleaner, tighter which at first made me think it was thinner, but then some real low end material proved that these guys were the kings. The low end seems to be almost an octave deeper. A clean solid sensation of bass. I can only attribute this to the fact that the DC300A will actually put out 300wpc into 4 ohms and doesn't even get warm with the LST's as a load even at very loud levels. I can only vouch for the 300A's. I understand that the Crown DC300 series amps are not well liked by many audiophiles because of a supposed harshness in the high frequencies. I have not experienced that with the LST's. Also the IC150 and 150A preamps can also be had for cheap like the power amps because they also are reviled by many audiophiles. I did find that my modified preamps do sound much smoother than they did pre mod and give the the NAD preamp a run on smoothness.I'm driving the AR58's with my McIntosh MC2105 amp (conservative 105wpc), C-28 preamp. The AR58's are an updated AR3A and are somewhat brighter than 3A's. I base this observation on my comparison of the 58's vs my AR2AX's and AR4X's which are much more subdued. The 58's sound wonderful with the Macs because they tame the high end ever so subtly. I was driving the LST's with the Macs but switched the LST's to the Kenwood, NAD and finally the Crown power amps to see how the higher damping factors of these amps vs the McIntosh would sound. Much as I love my Macs, the Crown definitely controls the low end on the LST's much better. All of the items listed above sound excellent and would satisfy virtually anyone but that extra control of the bass is assurance I won't go back to a smaller amp.Conclusion, you can't have too much power or too high a damping factor for the AR3 family of speakers....the amp has to be capable of tremendous output at low impedances. Once you've heard it, you'll never go back. Once owned a Bryston 4B at 250 wpc into 8 ohms and something like 500 into 2 ohms. It is bar none, the best amp I have ever heard for bass control although I haven't had the opportunity to compare it with the Crowns and on AR speakers, but I have no doubt it would also be awesome.My Luxman integrated-100wpc, Hafler DH200 - 100wpc, Crown D150-75wpc all sound great on the 2AX's, AR12's, AR48's but on the LST's you can hear the difference with the Crown DC300A. Although I haven't done comparisons of amps on the AR58's I suspect that I would hear the same kind of bottom end response as the LST's. The 58's and the Mac's sound excellent togeteher so they're staying as a set for the time being. Not the same bottom or high end as the LST's but an overall smooth and extremely pleasing sound presentation.For you fortunate ones who own AR9's, get a Crown or something equivalent with high power and high current capability. You don't know what your speakers are capable of until you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ron Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 Tom (and all),Thanks much. I have a couple of NAD recievers here that I inherited with the AR3s. I'd been wondering about the NAD amps already. I've been looking at the Marantz 4140s (per Barry's suggestion) and now I'll look more closely at the NAD too. As long as I can get the sound out of the speakers, I'll be happy. By the way, I've enjoyed your comments throughout this site. As a new-to-AR (in fact new to audio) person, I can't begin to tell you how much I've relied on your opinions. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ron Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 Tom,Do you happen to know the NAD C720BEE Receiver?:http://www.nadelectronics.com/hifi_receive...BEE_framset.htmThis seems to be the most current version of the NAD receiver/amp combo.Thanks in advance,Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tysontom Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 >Tom,>>> It should not be>>surprising that NAD engineers were once associated with>>Acoustic Research.>>>>Very interesting...I guess this is an unofficial endorsement>of NAD amps for AR speakers?David,I would say that it is an endorsement of "sorts" in that the NAD family of amplifiers puts out high current into a low-Z load such as the AR-3-type speaker. Of course there are *many* other amps -- such as Crowns, Adcoms and McIntosh and so forth -- that are capable of delivering more-than-enough power for AR-3s, but they are costlier. The reason I mentioned NADs is the need for a receiver or integrated amp that would work well and not cost too much. The NADs do well in this regard because they have modest steady-state power in most cases, but have tremendous peak-power capability for their rated power, usually 6 dB of headroom. The NADs don't compare with Crowns or McIntoshes when it comes to durability and build quality; but for their cost, they represent great value.--Tom Tyson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tysontom Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 >Tom (and all),>>Thanks much. I have a couple of NAD recievers here that I>inherited with the AR3s. I'd been wondering about the NAD amps>already. I've been looking at the Marantz 4140s (per Barry's>suggestion) and now I'll look more closely at the NAD too. As>long as I can get the sound out of the speakers, I'll be>happy. >>By the way, I've enjoyed your comments throughout this site.>As a new-to-AR (in fact new to audio) person, I can't begin to>tell you how much I've relied on your opinions. >>RonRon, I don't have personal experience with the Marantz 4140, but I have always heard good things about nearly all of the Marantz receivers. I don't believe that Marantz used a "Power-Envelope" type power supply, one that gives great reserve power for transients, but they have a very robust standard amplifier configuration that means that the amplifier section is usually stable and can put out good power into low impedances. I once owned a Marantz 250 that I used to drive AR-3as, and it worked very well up to its rated power. The important thing is to find an amp that is capable of at least 50 watts minimum, but with peak-power capability of 100 watts or more to get the best results. This is the reason I mentioned NAD amps. A 55-watt-per-channel NAD receiver can develop well-over 100 watts peak (probably closer to 150 watts) power. Incidentally, I don't know the newer versions, but I am sure they are excellent. If you are willing to pay more than the $300 or so you were aiming to spend, you might also look at Adcom amps and preamps. --Tom Tyson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankmarsi Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 May I use 'your' every word, except I'd like to change only the ampilfier name I will use in place of your 'Crowns' and 'NAd's.I'd als would some of the speaker names.Please tell me if this is OK with you as this proposal would be some fun for AR-LST and AR-3a users alike?Respectfully, Frank Marsi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankmarsi Posted March 14, 2006 Report Share Posted March 14, 2006 >Hi David,>>Here's what I'm using with my AR LST's and my AR58's>>I'm currently driving the LST's with a Crown DC300A amplifier>and a NAD 1600 monitor series tuner/preamp. THe NAD because it>has remote control functions and MC and MM phono inputs. I>also use my modified Crown IC150 and IC150A preamps. I have>recapped both IC 150's and installed Burr Brown op amps in>place of the originals.>>I also have a NAD 2700 power amp at 150wpc and a Kenwood M2A>at 200 wpc. The Crown power amps (I have 2) are the clear>winners in driving the LST's. The NAD and Kenwood are>excellent and I was more than satisfied until I hooked up the>Crown. The Crown amp seems a tad clearer in the mids and highs>but that could be my imagination. All were excellent in this>regard. The NAD and Kenwood are excellent in the bass but the>Crown is awesome. The low end is cleaner, tighter which at>first made me think it was thinner, but then some real low end>material proved that these guys were the kings. The low end>seems to be almost an octave deeper. A clean solid sensation>of bass. I can only attribute this to the fact that the DC300A>will actually put out 300wpc into 4 ohms and doesn't even get>warm with the LST's as a load even at very loud levels. I can>only vouch for the 300A's. I understand that the Crown DC300>series amps are not well liked by many audiophiles because of>a supposed harshness in the high frequencies. I have not>experienced that with the LST's. Also the IC150 and 150A>preamps can also be had for cheap like the power amps because>they also are reviled by many audiophiles. I did find that my>modified preamps do sound much smoother than they did pre mod>and give the the NAD preamp a run on smoothness.>>I'm driving the AR58's with my McIntosh MC2105 amp>(conservative 105wpc), C-28 preamp. The AR58's are an updated>AR3A and are somewhat brighter than 3A's. I base this>observation on my comparison of the 58's vs my AR2AX's and>AR4X's which are much more subdued. The 58's sound wonderful>with the Macs because they tame the high end ever so subtly. I>was driving the LST's with the Macs but switched the LST's to>the Kenwood, NAD and finally the Crown power amps to see how>the higher damping factors of these amps vs the McIntosh would>sound. Much as I love my Macs, the Crown definitely controls>the low end on the LST's much better. All of the items listed>above sound excellent and would satisfy virtually anyone but>that extra control of the bass is assurance I won't go back to>a smaller amp.>>Conclusion, you can't have too much power or too high a>damping factor for the AR3 family of speakers....the amp has>to be capable of tremendous output at low impedances. Once>you've heard it, you'll never go back. Once owned a Bryston 4B>at 250 wpc into 8 ohms and something like 500 into 2 ohms. It>is bar none, the best amp I have ever heard for bass control>although I haven't had the opportunity to compare it with the>Crowns and on AR speakers, but I have no doubt it would also>be awesome.>>My Luxman integrated-100wpc, Hafler DH200 - 100wpc, Crown>D150-75wpc all sound great on the 2AX's, AR12's, AR48's but on>the LST's you can hear the difference with the Crown DC300A.>Although I haven't done comparisons of amps on the AR58's I>suspect that I would hear the same kind of bottom end response>as the LST's. The 58's and the Mac's sound excellent togeteher>so they're staying as a set for the time being. Not the same>bottom or high end as the LST's but an overall smooth and>extremely pleasing sound presentation.>>For you fortunate ones who own AR9's, get a Crown or something>equivalent with high power and high current capability. You>don't know what your speakers are capable of until you do. May I use 'your' every word from this post, except I'd like to change only the ampilfier names. I will use in place of your 'Crowns' and 'NAD's other amps.I'd also would like to change some of the speaker names.Please tell me if this is OK with you as this proposal would be some fun for AR-LST and AR-3a users alike?Respectfully, Frank Marsi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bret Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 >Do you know if these are comparable to NAD C372 or C162/C272 combe? I heard NAD C372 and it sounded great. In fact, I'm thinking about either of these options.<I haven't heard an NAD amplifier in years, so I'm not qualified to talk about them.For your 9s I would suggest something quite a bit more. . .uh. . . robust than either thing I mentioned.I know that 1watt is 1watt, but the ability to drive difficult loads has to do with current delivery which has to do with current availability that typically has to do with an amplifier's ability to dissipate a lot of heat and all things being about equal, the more output devices you have the better.My 9s have been driven by everything from receivers to theater amplifiers and I've been pleased with everything but the receivers.If you don't hate the thought of picking it up and walking around with it, it isn't big enough.Of course that's a gross generalization, but it holds-up pretty well.Off to eat dinner.Bret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 Uh...????OK I guess......... I'm missing your point Frank???Am I tired????ps Bret and gang.... since it's about the musicI'm listening to a video of Norah Jones on a Sony DVD/SACD player but it is playing in DVD mode...Same impression as with my Diana Krall DVD.... the sound is spectacular. Seems so much more real than any CD that I have. Feels like you're right there in the audience. And that on my JVC home theater system but through my 2 way 8" Paradigms. You could just reach out and touch her the sound is so 'real'. I'll play it on the AR's on the weekend and see what it is like on a real system.thanks for getting me to check this out Bret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankmarsi Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 >Uh...????>>OK I guess......... I'm missing your point Frank???>>Am I tired???Dear Wally,> You're correct I did say nothing, I excuse myself. My point was going to be that I use two Phase linear 400's to power four AR-LST's and most indidvduals can't understand nor do they want to believe when I say high power is the only way to go with lower efficiency speakers! I was taught this fact in Stereo Review and Audio Magazine and High Fidelity Magazine back in '72. I didn't completely believe it until I tried it.I hope I'm clear on this simple point as you were to me about your Crown DC300's, an amp I almost bought but could not afford when I bought my first PL400 in 1974.Respectfully, Frank Same impression as with my Diana Krall DVD.... the sound is>spectacular. Seems so much more real than any CD that I have.>Feels like you're right there in the audience. And that on my>JVC home theater system but through my 2 way 8">Paradigms. You could just reach out and touch her the sound is>so 'real'. I'll play it on the AR's on the weekend and see>what it is like on a real system.>thanks for getting me to check this out Bret.>>>ps Bret and gang.... since it's about the music>>I'm listening to a video of Norah Jones on a Sony DVD/SACD>player but it is playing in DVD mode...>>Same impression as with my Diana Krall DVD.... the sound is>spectacular. Seems so much more real than any CD that I have.>Feels like you're right there in the audience. And that on my>JVC home theater system but through my 2 way 8">Paradigms. You could just reach out and touch her the sound is>so 'real'. I'll play it on the AR's on the weekend and see>what it is like on a real system.>thanks for getting me to check this out Bret.>> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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