A/C Power Filter

frankmarsi · February 25, 2006

Dear CSP members, I’ve stumbled upon a good buy for my stereo system. I purchased a “Monster-Cable” A/C power filter on the web. It features many useful options that would be of benefit to all high-fidelity system users. It features an amplifier delay turn-on, useful in protecting your speakers from ‘turn-on’ thumps and many other useful features such as surge protection, etc. Model #3500 MK.2

It’s a $400. list price on sale for just over $100. with a rebate of $50. I’m sure that would appeal to us vintage equipment users as obviously we seem to be ‘spend-thrifts’ to a degree by virtue of our not spending money on new speakers as we treasure our old AR ones. Because they’re better anyway! The site is called “Buy.com” and their prices are quite good on a lot of different items. After rebate it will cost me $109. I’ve noticed it went up about $10. more since I bought mine a week ago. I’m having one problem though, it’s not working for me just yet even though I’ve checked and re-checked all of the required set-up steps. I’ll probably get it going by tonite though as my steps may have been incorrect or I just got a ‘lemon’. Personally I doubt I’ve made an error, but hey.

Their 1-800 line is only available Mon. thru Friday and today is Saturday, so I’m stuck until then. Nonetheless it theory this item seems like an excellent deal and certainly if there is no change in sound such as ‘cut-off’ of highs or depth as I’ve read some filters might do. It is a good item to control and filter your ‘raw’ A/C power from the wall outlet. Anyone interested I suggest you look into it soon as it may not last on sale for long. It also has a nice little analog power meter which complements my Phase Linear 400 series 1 amps.

2-25-06

frankmarsi@verizon.net

February 25, 2006

Thanks

Bret

frankmarsi · February 26, 2006

>

2-25-06 10A.M.

Dear CSP members, I’ve stumbled upon a good buy for my stereo

>system. I purchased a “Monster-Cable” A/C power filter on the

>web. It features many useful options that would be of benefit

>to all high-fidelity system users. It features an amplifier

>delay turn-on, useful in protecting your speakers from

>‘turn-on’ thumps and many other useful features such as surge

>protection, etc. Model #3500 MK.2

>It’s a $400. list price on sale for just over $100. with a

>rebate of $50. I’m sure that would appeal to us vintage

>equipment users as obviously we seem to be ‘spend-thrifts’ to

>a degree by virtue of our not spending money on new speakers

>as we treasure our old AR ones. Because they’re better anyway!

>The site is called “Buy.com” and their prices are quite good

>on a lot of different items. After rebate it will cost me

>$109. I’ve noticed it went up about $10. more since I bought

>mine a week ago. I’m having one problem though, it’s not

>working for me just yet even though I’ve checked and

>re-checked all of the required set-up steps. I’ll probably get

>it going by tonite though as my steps may have been incorrect

>or I just got a ‘lemon’. Personally I doubt I’ve made an

>error, but hey.

>Their 1-800 line is only available Mon. thru Friday and today

>is Saturday, so I’m stuck until then. Nonetheless it theory

>this item seems like an excellent deal and certainly if there

>is no change in sound such as ‘cut-off’ of highs or depth as

>I’ve read some filters might do. It is a good item to control

>and filter your ‘raw’ A/C power from the wall outlet. Anyone

>interested I suggest you look into it soon as it may not last

>on sale for long. It also has a nice little analog power meter

>which complements my Phase Linear 400 series 1 amps.

>2-25-06

>frankmarsi@verizon.net

>

2-25-06 7P.M.

O.K. I got the A/C power filter to work. I had one switch in the opposite position the manual instructs to use this switch in. I may be the power-relay in my Phase Linear 4000 pre-amp that won't permit certain set-ups. I had a similar situation with an Adcom 515 power filter which didn't work at all. Instead of me being able to turn on my system thru my pre-amp as I had expected to use it according to the filter manual, at this point it seems I must turn on the the system thru the filter itself, a minor inconvenience.

But I will say its nice when this filter automatically turns on my power amps with a six second delay after my pre-amp comes on, a welcome protection for my treasured LST's. This delay is really what I was hoping to achieve, as it prevents any pre-amp surges from going thru my amps, a nice and safe procedure all around.

So... this filter does work albeit not as it may work with other types of system pre-amps, perhaps unique to me because of the relay with-in my pre-amp. Other than the above mentioned differences at least I've got the assurance of surge protection and the delayed turn on of the amps, perhaps not all features, but the most important ones anyway.

Those members interested in this filter may have different results.

Anyone out there with any information and or suggestions about this set-up, please reply, thanks

P.S. the filter A/C power meter reads 125 volts. Anyone have any comments about that as I thought it would read anywhere from 117 to 120. I have have read that the common USA line voltages have been increased across the country though.

Frank Marsi

soundminded · February 26, 2006

I am often extremely wary of this kind of product, especially consumer products, and most especially those marketed specifically to audiophiles. The overselling of these products to purchasers based on fear and ignorance doesn't stop at the consumer market as I've encountered several industrial level scams where the sums are staggering and the equipment nearly useless.

Often, there is far less to them than they would have you believe consisting mostly of packaging, unnecessary hospital grade receptacles, MOVs and a few small capacitors and a small choke or two. Effective power conditioners usually include a computer grade isolation transformer which is a large heavy expensive item, in fact if it is not going to compromise performance, it has to be at least as large and heavy as the power transformer in your amplifier if that is one of the components it is going to serve. The Rolls Royce of power protection is an on line UPS with excellent input/output isolation and low harmonic distortion of the order of 5% or less. How much distortion it kicks back at the network is also important. Those suitable for audio systems aren't cheap.

Do these inexpensive ones work? That depends on what you mean by work. They will protect against spikes with their MOVs but you can buy those cheaply yourself. Some will filter out RF noise to one degree or another but so will a well designed power supply in an electronic component. They cannot compensate for sags or surges by changing the voltage. Short of a UPS, only a ferroresonant transformer of the type manufactured by Sola Industries can do that. And of course they cannot supply power during an outage.

I downloaded the pdf files of the block diagram (there was no schematic) and the user manual for this device. It wasn't encouraging. The heart and soul of this are 4 "isolation filters" but what they are, what they do, and how they work is not explained. The fact that the entire unit is relatively small and weighs less than 5 pounds is also highly suggestive that there are no large transformers or chokes inside. I'm not saying it can't work but I am at the least very skeptical, especially in light of the fact that as is typical, there are no performance specifications for it such as how many db of noise surpression and at what frequencies it offers. Personally, I'd stick with high quality products from suppliers like Exide (Powerware), Liebert, MGE, and others sold through electrical supply houses or industrial communications equipment supply houses and avoid the consumer and audiophile targeted products completely.

BTW, a good test is an incansescent light dimmer. These often cause annoying buzzing in audio equipment. Find the most troublesome one in your house and set the dimmer to create the most interference. Then try your equipment with and without the power conditioner. If it substantially reduces the noise or eliminates it all together, you probably have a good one worth keeping.

February 26, 2006

>Personally, I'd stick with high quality products from suppliers like Exide (Powerware), Liebert, MGE, and others sold through electrical supply houses or industrial communications equipment supply houses and avoid the consumer and audiophile targeted products completely.<

I know that's great advice. When I researched these some years ago I didn't buy anything because it looked like the non-objectionable ones were going to cost more than the amplifier! In some cases these were throttling the flow of electricity.

Do you have a favorite that's reasonably priced? I'd hate to protect $1,000 worth of equipment with a $2,500 power supply.

frankmarsi · February 26, 2006

>>Personally, I'd stick with high quality products from

>suppliers like Exide (Powerware), Liebert, MGE, and others

>sold through electrical supply houses or industrial

>communications equipment supply houses and avoid the consumer

>and audiophile targeted products completely.<

>

>I know that's great advice. When I researched these some

>years ago I didn't buy anything because it looked like the

>non-objectionable ones were going to cost more than the

>amplifier! In some cases these were throttling the flow of

>electricity.

>

>Do you have a favorite that's reasonably priced? I'd hate to

>protect $1,000 worth of equipment with a $2,500 power supply.

Thanks for the replies gentlemen, all well taken, however my question at this point is if anyone is aware if these conditioners affect the sound output? Do they cut off highs and the bottom end? I've read enough reports with conflicting views, some saying more sound is realized, others say the extremes are cut off. I purchased the unit for $100.00 at Buy.com with free shipping so on that note its not a bad deal. To do an A B test seems difficult because by the time you've switched all the cables, the ear may forget any differences. In terms of surge protection and timed-power to my amps its a benefit, but of course not if I have to sacrifice audio quality. Any opinions are appreciated.

Sincerely, frankmarsi@verizon.net

soundminded · February 26, 2006

>Thanks for the replies gentlemen, all well taken, however my

>question at this point is if anyone is aware if these

>conditioners affect the sound output?

I've read these reports too. Frankly I don't know what to believe, I think a lot of testimonial reports by audiophiles is BS especially when they tell me they can hear differences in receptacles, putting elevators under wires or bricks on amplifiers. I learned this first hand at an audio demo at the AES show in 1983 by a vendor who midway through stopped to correct a mistake in his setup which nobody caught and made a lot of professionals in the business look like a bunch of monkies (me too.) As soon as someone tells me they have to disconnect wires and reconnect them to make a comparison test of anything, I have to discount the results due to notoriously short audio memory. There is no doubt that buying a power conditioner which is inadequate for its load can affect the performance of the load. Equipment with well regulated power supplies can only compensate so much for pulling the voltage of an isolation transformer or UPS down by drawing too much current when the load is too heavy for it. Therefore, a good power conditioner should be sized generously for the largest load it is expected to see. This can be determined by comparing the actual current draw(s) at (rated power output in the case of amplifiers) to the output voltage drop for a particular conditioner or UPS at that load. Then it's a matter of knowing what effect this input voltage reduction will have on performance. For conditioners whose filters are strictly in parallel with the line voltage, there may be no drop at all. But these will also offer no regulation of voltage (but they may attenuate or surpress spikes and rf noise.) IMO, audiophiles put much to much worry into this issue. If there is no problem don't fix it is my motto and if you are worried about damage form spikes, buy an inexpensive MOV protector. That's what I've done. BTW, if you have determined that you really do have a problem, the first one to call is the customer relations department of your electric utility. It may not help but it's worth a try and doesn't cost anything.

rrcrain · February 27, 2006

The 3500 is a relatively well built unit. It's block diagram tends to simplify the guts of the unit and leads one to suspect its no more than another snake oil unit. In reality, it dues use multiple stages for filtering and does have totally separate filter netowrks for each duplex on the back of the unit. As for improving sound quality. Some think it does, I don't. At th same time, it doesn't hurt the sound wuality. On the other hand, I did see an improvement in picture quality in a rear screen projection TV. At $100, it's a fair price.

Monsters top end power filter, the HTPS (something) does come with a pair of toroid isolation transformers and weighs in around 60 pounds or so and retails for around $1,500. As far as I'm concerned, it has no effect on the sound quality, others disagree. I wnet this route after spending a few grand on repair bills caused by my local power company helped pre-age my equipment several times. And no, I didn't pay retail, I found one on ebay for a fraction of its retail price.

IMHO, if you get the monster units for their switching functionality and power (spike and noise) filtration, you will be fine. If you get them to improve your systems sound, you will be horribly dissapointed. Oddly, they do improve the picture on my rear projection TV.

mluong303 · February 27, 2006

"...Oddly, they do improve the picture on my rear projection TV."

Hi, Richard

Better sharpness? Brighter picture? Better Color Saturation and Deeper Black or Less Noise? Are you talking about Picture from DVD Playback or same goes for Digital Reception from Satellite Disk(Cable TV) or Both? Please Advice and let Us know the model number you are using at the moment for reference. If you can see obvious improvement then small investment will be well worth the money.

ML

rrcrain · February 27, 2006

I've an older rear projection TV that we want to replace, but for now, remodeling the basement is first on our list of priorities. now that I'm thinking about it, my wife and I saw an improved picture not only on the rear projection unit, but also on her new plasma screen TV. Color saturation, blackness and sharpness all improved. My wife commented on the improved picture before I could ask her if she noted a difference and wanted to know what changed. The WAF on the unit was immediate.

The plasma TV was plugged into a HTS 5000. The improvement was seen on standard cable as well s DVD.

The projection TV saw an improvement as well when plugged into the HTS 5000 and interestingly, there "seemed" to e an improvement again when I plugged it into a HTPS 7000. The 7000 does have dual isolation transformers for what it's worth. Was the perceived improvement enough to warrant the price if you bought the unit retail? No, absolutely not in my opinion. On the other hand, getting it on eBay for less than the HTS 5000 was new was worth it.

I also invested in the AVS 5000(?); the voltage stabalization unit. Again as far as sound, no change that I can detect. My sole reason for the expenditure was due to my power company and in that regard, it does stabalize power. In my old house, voltage varied around 5 volts give or take.

What I didn't expect was an improvement in the picture on the projection TV. Specifically, it eliminated (or greatly reduced) the black screen flicker.

I want to stress that I did not buy these units on the hope they would magically improve my stereo system sound or TV picture. They were purchased specifically to address power line issues the power company even admitted exited. And before someone suggests it, I also installed whole house surge suppression and a whole house lightening arrestor. The power company installed new power lines and surge arrestors into the subdivision after they received to many insurance claims.

soundminded · February 27, 2006

>The 3500 is a relatively well built unit. It's block diagram

>tends to simplify the guts of the unit and leads one to

>suspect its no more than another snake oil unit. In reality,

>it dues use multiple stages for filtering and does have

>totally separate filter netowrks for each duplex on the back

>of the unit. As for improving sound quality. Some think it

>does, I don't. At th same time, it doesn't hurt the sound

>wuality. On the other hand, I did see an improvement in

>picture quality in a rear screen projection TV. At $100, it's

>a fair price.

>

>Monsters top end power filter, the HTPS (something) does come

>with a pair of toroid isolation transformers and weighs in

>around 60 pounds or so and retails for around $1,500. As far

>as I'm concerned, it has no effect on the sound quality,

>others disagree. I wnet this route after spending a few grand

>on repair bills caused by my local power company helped

>pre-age my equipment several times. And no, I didn't pay

>retail, I found one on ebay for a fraction of its retail

>price.

>

>IMHO, if you get the monster units for their switching

>functionality and power (spike and noise) filtration, you will

>be fine. If you get them to improve your systems sound, you

>will be horribly dissapointed. Oddly, they do improve the

>picture on my rear projection TV.

It could be something like a pi rf filter or similar. If they use heavy gauge series wired air core inductors, it shouldn't affect the sound at all. At $100 I wouldn't expect too much but at $400 I think I'd be rather disappointed. This type of filter could be useful for a TV set with a cheap power supply and rf induced power line noise problems. Depends on the circumstances I guess. I would not expect it to have any real benefit for major problems like sags or a marginal but constant overvoltage problem. I had a friend who had about 135+ volts because the feeders from the transformer were undersized and the utility decided to use higher transformer tap settings to compensate for heavy loads from air conditioners. Drove him crazy. I'd be interesed to hear Frank's comments about how effective it is in surpressing dimmer noise when he gets it.

rrcrain · February 27, 2006

>> I'd be interesed to hear Frank's comments about how effective it >> is in surpressing dimmer noise when he gets it.

I'll be interested as well. From what I've heard and read, some systems benefit more than others, or perhaps it's the quality of the power where the system is located. Either way, I like the approach a smal business uses to sell the monster power units. They encourage you to take it home and try it out before buying it. If you don't think it does anything, bring it back and owe nothing. They say most units are bought.

We moved mid December into the country, and this house has its own dedicated stepdown transformer and whats coming out of the outlet seems to be a bit more stable. My computer UPS no longer beeps twice a day warning me voltage is out of tolerance.

frankmarsi · March 1, 2006

>Dear CSP members, I’ve stumbled upon a good buy for my stereo