Add a subwoofer or switch to AR-3 speakers?

[gcrimmins]

I have a pair of AR-4x speakers that I really like, but I wish they went about an octave lower. I like listening to pipe organ music so I need speakers that will give solid bass down to 32hz. I'm considering three options and I'm open to other ideas. I'm after the best bass for the least money.

1. Buy one of the current AR or maybe Velodyne powered subwoofers to use with the AR-4x speakers. This would probably be easiest and most expensive. I just wonder how good an 8" or 10" subwoofer in a vented enclosure sounds. That, and I just can't shake the notion that using a ported subwoofer with AR speakers might cause some sort of cosmic disturbance.

2. Sell the AR-4x speakers and buy a pair of AR-3 or AR-3a speakers. Can anyone tell me if these would perform well down to 32hz? If I went this route I would need a new receiver, but that wouldn't be a big deal if I could find something on the used market. And I've sure heard good things about these speakers.

3. Keep the AR-4x speakers and buy an AR-1W and use it with a dedicated amplifier as a sort of DIY AR subwoofer. I see that Ed is trying to this with a pair of AR-1W's, and I'm very interested to see how this works out.

Anyway, I'm interested in any thoughts anyone would be willing to share about which one of these options would sound and work the best. Thanks!

--Geoff

[Guest postjob62]

Hi Geoff,

I've not given up on the idea, but I didn't really get too much direction on how it could be done, at least easily. I agree with your "cosmic disturbance" theory; having said that I'm beginning to think going to 3a's might be the best route. But it just seems such a natural thing to use a 1W as a common mono subwoofer with both my 4x's and my 2ax's- I just don't have the smarts to figure it out.

Part of the problem for me is that mixing a 4 ohm and 8 ohm speaker in parallel yeilds about a 2.5 ohm load to the amp. And this assumes that you would be using the 1W's as a stereo pair, not a common mono as I originally wanted.

I'm thinking now the ticket might be to split your preamp signal with a "Y" or the like and run one input to an inexpensive mono plate subwoofer amp; doesn't matter which one since they all sound the same anyway ! This would give you the added advantage of having volume adjustability on the "sub" to balance things out.

Please keep me posted.

Ed

[gcrimmins]

Hi Ed,

Thanks for your reply, it's good to hear your thoughts on this. Maybe together we can figure out a good solution.

>Part of the problem for me is that mixing a 4 ohm and 8 ohm

>speaker in parallel yeilds about a 2.5 ohm load to the amp.

>And this assumes that you would be using the 1w's as a stereo

>pair, not a common mono as I originally wanted.

I agree that you wouldn't want to run the main speakers and the AR-1w speakers off of the same amplifier. In addition to the 2.5-ohm load this would put on the amp, there wouldn't be any way to adjust the volume of the Ar-1w's to balance them to the main speakers. If you wanted to use a pair of AR-1w's, it seems like you were on the right track using a second amplifier hooked up to the tape-out on the primary amplifier. Do you have any idea why this wasn't working?

>I'm thinking now the ticket might be to split your preamp

>signal with a "Y" or the like and run one input to an

>inexpensive mono plate subwoofer amp; doesn't matter which

I think some of the mono subwoofer plate amps have a pair of imputs, so you could connect both channels to it. Most of them also have speaker-level imputs & outputs. So you connect the subwoofer amp to the speaker terminals on your main amp. Then you connect your main speakers to subwoofer amp. And most of the plate amps have a volume control, variable crossover, and phase switch. This would essentially turn an AR-1w into a powered subwoofer. The question is how would it sound compared to a current AR subwoofer? The PR808 is only about $140 shipped, and the PR1010 is about $190, but they are in vented enclosures. I wish I could compare these to an AR-1w and a pair of AR-3's.

--Geoff

[ar_pro]

Here's a vote for the 3 or 3a, Geoff.

By the time you've finished adding amplifiers, running a mono feed, and balancing the whole thing, you'll still have *less* than you'd get with a pair of 3 or 3a's - that is, stereo woofers and improved mids & tweets (compared to the 4x), nicely running from one stereo amplifier.

Don't know much about the current crop of "AR" subwoofers, but I'm ready to bet that the 3/3a will woof lower and louder!

[Guest postjob62]

Geoff, I *did* try the second receiver idea, which was being fed a tape input signal from the tape output from the first receiver. It worked, but the resulting sound from the 1W was pretty distorted. I think it may have been Tom, but someone here suggested that the tape level output might be wrong and causing distortion, so I tried it directly from the source front end into the receiver and used the normal speaker outs. Same thing.

I now believe the tape out--->tape in idea would have worked and will work fine (of course using both 1W's in a normal stereo hookup). This will also give the volume adjustability that is needed. Is this more trouble than just going to a 3a? Probably, but I thought this was a potentially cool setup and just wanted it to work. Plus, the 4x's may just be one of my all-time favorite speakers. I love an underdog!

So what's the problem, why was I getting the distortion? I have come to the very grim realization that the woofers on the 1W's have a problem. The seller said he tested them and they were fine, but something happened enroute, even though there were no marks on his excellent packing! So now, I'm really conflicted; do I proceed and try to remove the grills on the 1W's to access the woofers for repair? Don't know that I'm capable of undertaking this task in spite of some excellent and much-needed help from another member (Thanks so much, John!) and I don't want to ruin them, they're so pretty and original. Or, do I just give up and sell them to someone better able to remove the grills than myself so they can live another day?

Right now I'm leaning toward selling them and concentrating on restoring my 3a's; at least the grills are off!

Good luck,

Ed

[Guest dogmeninreno]

>I have a pair of AR-4x speakers that I really like, but I

>wish they went about an octave lower. I like listening to pipe

>organ music so I need speakers that will give solid bass down

>to 32hz. I'm considering three options and I'm open to other

>ideas. I'm after the best bass for the least money.

>

>1. Buy one of the current AR or maybe Velodyne powered

>subwoofers to use with the AR-4x speakers. This would probably

>be easiest and most expensive. I just wonder how good an 8" or

>10" subwoofer in a vented enclosure sounds. That, and I just

>can't shake the notion that using a ported subwoofer with AR

>speakers might cause some sort of cosmic disturbance.

>

>2. Sell the AR-4x speakers and buy a pair of AR-3 or AR-3a

>speakers. Can anyone tell me if these would perform well down

>to 32hz? If I went this route I would need a new receiver, but

>that wouldn't be a big deal if I could find something on the

>used market. And I've sure heard good things about these

>speakers.

>

The 3 or 3a gets my vote no questions asked find a marantz 2270 and play away! Dale

>3. Keep the AR-4x speakers and buy an AR-1W and use it with a

>dedicated amplifier as a sort of DIY AR subwoofer. I see that

>Ed is trying to this with a pair of AR-1W's, and I'm very

>interested to see how this works out.

>

>Anyway, I'm interested in any thoughts anyone would be willing

>to share about which one of these options would sound and work

>the best. Thanks!

>

>--Geoff

[Guest postjob62]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, Geoff, but the 2270 won't fly. It's a great receiver until presented with a 4 ohm load, at which point it folds up like a card house. You need to make sure the specs on your receiver show as much output at 4 ohms as it does at 8, or preferably more.

I love the old Marantz's too and have several 2230's which have a surprisingly tubey sound. They will power the 3a's OK just not too loud.

The 3a's like 100 wpc or more, so my plans are to get an Adcom 535 or 545 and run the preamp outs from the 2230 into that. Your 3a's will be much happier and you'll be surprised how good the 2230 preamp is.

Regards,

Ed

[Guest Bret]

>they're so pretty and original. Or, do I just give up and sell them to someone better able to remove the grills than myself so they can live another day?<

As far as I know, there isn't anybody that good. The problem with the grills is the way they were put-on in the first place, not with someone's skill at removing them. I hear that removing them can be done with a lot of patience - babysteps.

The two receiver idea is never going to work to your satisfaction unless you add a step. Somewhere, somehow, you have to get a crossover in that chain. There are multiple options here:

A)The easiest thing would be to get a receiver or preamplifier, or even a home theater processor with a subwoofer output and run *that* to your second amplifier/receiver (preferrably with a pre-amp "in" jack). (see "A1" below)

B)Build an external "crossover" between the speaker and amplifier, but you have to "mate" it to the right frequency with the 4x's. I don't know what frequency that would be. . . maybe 100Hz, maybe 80Hz. It would be difficult to change the crossover point and you may want to raise or lower it. . . this is a great idea if you know what you are trying to accomplish; exactly.

C) Buy a dedicated subwoofer amplifier (not terribly expensive in this day and time) that would give you volume and crossover control.

D) My personal favorite - find an old Dalhquist or similar active crossover on eBay or Audiogon or somewhere and use that between your two amplifiers/receivers. For all I know you might be able to buy such a thing at Radio Shack for $40 these days.

To do what you are trying to do, the optimum thing to do is to use two amplifiers on an active crossover coming out of a preamplifier.

A1) Inexpensive but effective way around the whole thing: Buy a relatively inexpensive "Panasonic" home theater receiver. The ones with digital amps are tiny and cheap at about $180 at discount retailers. These are 100w/channel or so out. I would never expect them to be robust enough to handle AR 12" woofers, but the 4x's, sure. (I have one running AR-17s and it is plenty.) And I think you would be extremely surprised by the way a "Panasonic" digital receiver sounds. I was. My listening-buddy was, too. These have subwoofer outputs and built-in crossovers via the home theater selections (meaning you can tell it to send all low-frequency output to the sub-out even in stereo-only mode and have only 80Hz and up going to the "satellites" (in this case 4x's). With only 80Hz and up to contend-with, the Panasonic amp is surprisingly good. Take the sub-out and run it into your "pre-amp in" on your current receiver and use one channel of that receiver to power the considerable demand of the 1W. Voila! (but there is no phono-input)

I know, I know. . . "Panasonic!!!??? My pencil sharpener is a Panasonic! Anathema! YUCK!" Well, it works and it sounds fine. Maybe it isn't as refined as big-ol' seperates,and it sure doesn't have that pretty-blue "glow" of an old Marantz, but it doesn't cost like seperates and does have the function you want if you want to make this whole thing work.

Bret

[dynaco_dan]

Hi there

If a crossover to a AR 12" woofer is still the thought, then a crossover with a 6 dB or greater cutoff at 50 hz would be required to have it least interfere with the AR-4X speakers output.

>Hate to be the bearer of bad news, Geoff, but the 2270 won't

>fly. It's a great receiver until presented with a 4 ohm load,

>at which point it folds up like a card house. You need to make

>sure the specs on your receiver show as much output at 4 ohms

>as it does at 8, or preferably more.

>

>I love the old Marantz's too and have several 2230's which

>have a surprisingly tubey sound. They will power the 3a's OK

>just not too loud.

>

> The 3a's like 100 wpc or more, so my plans are to get an

>Adcom 535 or 545 and run the preamp outs from the 2230 into

>that. Your 3a's will be much happier and you'll be surprised

>how good the 2230 preamp is.

>

>Regards,

>

>Ed

[soundminded]

If you like the sound of AR4x, you may be disappointed at the sound of the excellent but different AR3 or AR3a. Adding a subwoofer would be the only way to retain the sound of AR4x therefore and get additional the LF sound you want. However, IMO you face several challenges in integrating a subwoofer with satellite speakers no matter what brand or combination. There is the electrical problem. You need to be able to adjust the high end rolloff FR of the subwoofer and the low end rolloff FR of the satellite speakers, in your case AR4x so that they match. You also have to be able to adjust their relative volume levels to integrate them and then once set, adjust both simultaneously with a single volume control so that their relative loudness remains fixed. You also need the versitility of being able to adjust their phase and a 0/180 degree switch will help. This means that you will need adjustable equalizers or crossovers and a separate amplifier sufficient for the woofer is also helpful. If you choose a speaker like AR1W, you will have to assemble all of this yourself. If you buy a self powered subwoofer, it's all there for you. BTW, if you try to design your own passive crossover network for AR1Ws, it can be done but it will take a great deal of skill, patience and trial and error. Even experts often tweak passive crossover networks for a long time before they are happy with them.

You also face the problem of acoustical integration. A single full range loudspeaker is often carefully designed to integrate the acoustics of the LF driver with the rest of the system. Just buying a single subwoofer to place in some convenient spot IMO will create real phase cancelllaton and reinforcement problems resulting in a very irregular FR in the crossover region between the subwoofer and satellites because the subwoofer will inevitably have to be some distance from at least one and usually both satellites. I would recommend buying two subwoofers and placing the AR4xs direcly on top of them.

You might consider a pair of Parts Express 10" or 12" Titanic III subwoofer kits. They claim it only takes about an hour each to assemble them. They are sealed designs and seem like a good value. They are also available assembled but you save a lot of money for a little effort building them yourself.

http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&D...age_ID=242#kits

[Guest postjob62]

Soundminded,

Thanks for the advice. I have come to the realization that what seemed like a simple project to my electronically unsophisticated mentality has clearly turned into something over my head and beyond my range of abilty. I am going to abandon the project and reluctantly put the 1W's up for sale in a week or two.

I've got a new idea, and this one seems to be working so far. Last night I tried "stacking" 2 pairs of 4x's hooked up in parallel to one of my Marantz 2230's. I thought heck, if it works for Advents, I'll give it a try. The results are astonishing! I realize it doesn't change the FR in anyway, but the difference in perceived (or real) sound is just incredible. And even at a now 4 ohm load, the old Marantz is not even breathing hard. No heat, no clipping, nothing-after hours of high volume classic rock. It's in a 13x13.5x8 room.

Sooo, my next thought is, wonder if this would work as well stacking a pair of 4x's over a pair of 2ax's? It would increse the bass and FR in general, impedance to the receiver would still be 4 ohms. I may give this a try and see if the synergy is still there as it is with ths stacked 4x's.

Meanwhile, my 3a restoration project will kick off. Probably the best idea all along.

Ed

[soundminded]

Properly designing a passive crossover between the AR1W and AR4x is possible. I don't want you to go away believing that it isn't. However, it does take skill and patience as I said. BTW, there are canned computer programs which will design them for you. Even Parts Express offers a service using their proprietary software (for a fee of course.) Paralleling the AR4x and the AR1W using such a crossover will not drop the load impedence significantly below either one of them individually. Someone here keeps asking this question but briefly the reason is that the crossover not only channels the different frequencies to the different appropriate drivers but also increases the impedence the drivers present to the amplifier outside the frequency band they are intended to handle. Therefore the impedence the AR4xs present at say 30 hz will be dozens of ohms even though they remain 8 ohms at say 1000 hz while the AR1Ws will present a very high impedence at 1000 hz while remaining at 4 ohms (or whatever) at 30 hz. This does not impose any significant increase in power demand (beyond what you would expect) or further decrease in impedence the amplifier sees than the speakers connected individually. You can also buy passive subwoofer crossovers preassembled from suppliers like Parts Express and they may be able to help you over the phone to select the best choice from among what they have avaiable although you might have to modify them for your application. I think AR1W and AR3 would benefit from a fairly powerful amplifier and although a minimum of 25 wpc RMS was recommended by AR back in the days when that was a fairly expensive amplifier, 100 wpc especially at low frequencies is not unreasonable. However, do not dispair, there are many fine amplifiers and receivers on the used market which can do the job nicely for very little money because nobody wants them anymore. For example, the Pioneer SX-950 receiver at 85 wpc in perfect condition I picked up at a garage sale for $10 would probably do very well. Just be careful to avoid inexpensive receivers advertising high power but not suitable for low impedence loads like 4 ohms or less.

[dynaco_dan]

Hi there

You asked for options and my suggestion would be to pick up a pair of AR-3A's and have an amp or receiver with about 100 watts RMS per channel.

This will eliminate a lot of your problems and get right to the point.

Deep bass!

No special 50 hz crossover, no special separate amp or pre-amp or summed subwoofer output to worry about.

Also using a Hafler setup, the AR-4X's can still be used as a psuedo 4 channel, or rear channel enhancement, along with the AR-3A's, using a single power source.

For your information the 12" AR woofer is rated at 4 ohm at 1,000 hz.

In a AR-1, AR-1W, AR-1X or AR-3 this would be the same as the woofer is still at the 1000 hz point.

In a AR-3A this would not be the same, the midrange is now at the 1000 hz point not the woofer only.

The woofer would be down many dB at 1000 hz on a 3A, but not totally out of the circuit.

The AR-3A also does go below 4 ohms to about 2.75 ohms, so it's up and down, remember that this is sine wave also, not music.

The AR original 12" woofers impedance rises to about 30 - 40 ohms under 100 hz.

I have already written in another persons similar topic my suggestion to his question and with AR-4X's and AR-2AX's being mentioned.

A summed A + B output to a center channel, in this case a single woofer only is very simple to arrive at, BUT, another pre-amp and separate mono or stereo amp or an integrated amp will be needed plus a 12 dB or greater 50 hz crossover.

This advice is to limit the massive and overwelming bass from 50 - 575 hz of the 3A compared to the 4X's, and yet adds no additional load to the original AR-4X amplifier.

I hope this helps.

If you have more questions there is many helpful readers just waiting to respond.

Good luck.

Vern

>Properly designing a passive crossover between the AR1W and

>AR4x is possible. I don't want you to go away believing that

>it isn't. However, it does take skill and patience as I said.

> BTW, there are canned computer programs which will design

>them for you. Even Parts Express offers a service using their

>proprietary software (for a fee of course.) Paralleling the

>AR4x and the AR1W using such a crossover will not drop the

>load impedence significantly below either one of them

>individually. Someone here keeps asking this question but

>briefly the reason is that the crossover not only channels the

>different frequencies to the different appropriate drivers but

>also increases the impedence the drivers present to the

>amplifier outside the frequency band they are intended to

>handle. Therefore the impedence the AR4xs present at say 30

>hz will be dozens of ohms even though they remain 8 ohms at

>say 1000 hz while the AR1Ws will present a very high impedence

>at 1000 hz while remaining at 4 ohms (or whatever) at 30 hz.

>This does not impose any significant increase in power demand

>(beyond what you would expect) or further decrease in

>impedence the amplifier sees than the speakers connected

>individually. You can also buy passive subwoofer crossovers

>preassembled from suppliers like Parts Express and they may be

>able to help you over the phone to select the best choice from

>among what they have avaiable although you might have to

>modify them for your application. I think AR1W and AR3 would

>benefit from a fairly powerful amplifier and although a

>minimum of 25 wpc RMS was recommended by AR back in the days

>when that was a fairly expensive amplifier, 100 wpc especially

>at low frequencies is not unreasonable. However, do not

>dispair, there are many fine amplifiers and receivers on the

>used market which can do the job nicely for very little money

>because nobody wants them anymore. For example, the Pioneer

>SX-950 receiver at 85 wpc in perfect condition I picked up at

>a garage sale for $10 would probably do very well. Just be

>careful to avoid inexpensive receivers advertising high power

>but not suitable for low impedence loads like 4 ohms or less.

[dynaco_dan]

Hi again Ed and Geoff

"I've not given up on the idea, but I didn't really get too

much direction on how it could be done, at least easily."

I gave you some good advice based on your equipment, question and your goal at that time.

You and Geoff have the same goal and I just posted him some advice based on his question and options.

You won't find a $5.00 solution to your needs.

My suggestion to Geoff was to buy a pair of AR-3A's and if he has 100 watts RMS per channel amp or receiver or there abouts he is doing well.

The AR-4X's can be used with a Hafler circuit as rear enhancement 4 channel with the same amp or receiver.

The 4X's will still be useful and it works well.

I've had this setup.

I just eliminated a summed pre-amp output, 50 hz electronic crossover, separate integrated amp or receiver or pre-amp and separate stereo or mono amp as well as buying a rare and expensive AR-1W.

I just re-read your write-up again.

At least I did before I saved it this time.

You now want to use 2 AR-1W woofers or add-on subwoofers with both the AR-4X's and AR-2AX's, and you are thinking of adding not one but two now and tapping into the pre-amp output.

If you buy a sub-woofer you would only need the summed output to a sub woofers amplifier.

If you still want one AR-1W or 2 you will need a 50 hz crossover and an amp with volume control, or pre-amp and basic amp or receiver.

I, myself, was considering adding a pair of AR-1X's to my AR-4X's many years ago.

I saved a lot of money not going that way, then.

I didn't know then, what I know now, and, this was before I worked at our local AR warantee depot for a few years.

Good luck again, Ed and Geoff.

Keep us informed as your progress please.

Vern

I

>agree with your "cosmic disturbance" theory; having said that

>I'm beginning to think going to 3a's might be the best route.

>But it just seems such a natural thing to use a 1W as a common

>mono subwoofer with both my 4x's and my 2ax's- I just don't

>have the smarts to figure it out.

>

>Part of the problem for me is that mixing a 4 ohm and 8 ohm

>speaker in parallel yeilds about a 2.5 ohm load to the amp.

>And this assumes that you would be using the 1W's as a stereo

>pair, not a common mono as I originally wanted.

>

>I'm thinking now the ticket might be to split your preamp

>signal with a "Y" or the like and run one input to an

>inexpensive mono plate subwoofer amp; doesn't matter which

>one since they all sound the same anyway ! This would give

>you the added advantage of having volume adjustability on the

>"sub" to balance things out.

>

>Please keep me posted.

>

>Ed

[gcrimmins]

Thank you to everyone for all of the helpful responses. It looks like something like the AR-3's would give the best bass and the best sound. If I can't find anything in my price range (i.e. cheap) then a subwoofer sounds like a good second-choice. And it sounds like the AR-1w's wouldn't be worth fiddling with unless I happen to find a pair for a really good price. Thanks again for all the input!

--Geoff

[dynaco_dan]

>Thank you to everyone for all of the helpful responses. It

>looks like something like the AR-3's would give the best bass

>and the best sound. If I can't find anything in my price range

>(i.e. cheap) then a subwoofer sounds like a good

>second-choice. And it sounds like the AR-1w's wouldn't be

>worth fiddling with unless I happen to find a pair for a

>really good price. Thanks again for all the input!

>

>--Geoff

Hi Geoff

Don't run off just yet.

The AR-3A's might be your best choice rather than the AR-3 to be exact.

I am sure there is lots of AR-3 owners out there but the 3A's were a slight improvement over the 3's.

The AR-3's also seem to be much more expensive on ebay now.

The 3's power handling, overall clarity and dispersion was slightly improved in the AR-3A's.

I can't comment on this feature, when the AR-3A's first came out they continued using the older cloth surround woofer.

I don't have the experience to comment as to whether that woofer or the later foamed woofer would have a different sound, power handling capabilities or any other noticeable difference.

I know only that the re-foam issue would keep coming up.

I would probably go for the earlier cloth surrounded AR-3A version for longevity.

As always fuse your investments.

Good luck and please keep us updated, Geoff.

[Guest b stott]

Not an expert, but I have had my 3a's since 1967 when I got them from the company (I worked there). I get floor rattling bass on my organ recordings. Since they are the original version with the cloth, I have never had any surround problems. They went up on top of two bookcases when I brought them home and are still there today making great sounds!! If you have any march band recordings, you will also enjoy the pounding on your chest from the bass drum.