dynaco_dan
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KLH Twelve recap results
As requested by some readers, here are my impressions of the recapped KLH Twelves we’ve been discussing. I used mylar caps from Madisound, except for the two 50uF bass caps. Polypros would not fit in the box so I used NPEs.
First—some disclaimers:
- I do not have “golden ears.” Never did. And as I face my seventh decade (yikes!
) on the planet this year, my ears may be headed toward tin. - This “test” was not at all scientific. Not double-blind. The listening rooms were not set up right. The “panel” consisted of one listener.
The equipment:
- A vintage AR amp that was recently refurbished.
- A 10-year-old Toshiba DVD player (to play the CDs)
- A Niles Audio speaker switch
- A pair of AR2ax speakers that I restored 1½ years ago. New foam surrounds, new Zen polyprop caps, cleaned up original pots. New Irish linen grille cloth.
- KLH Twelves. All original drivers. Original grille cloth (boucle over sheer black).
- MicroStatic supertweeters on the Twelves.
- Plain ol’ 16 ga speaker wire.
The music:
- Jazz at the Pawnshop (proprius label)
- Passion Grace & Fire (John McLaughlin, Al DeMeola, Paco DeLucia on Columbia)
- Orchestral Spectaculars (Telarc label)
- The Best of Carly Simon
- The Mozart Collection (American Gramophone)
I chose these in order to get a range of relatively unprocessed sound (I love classic rock, but Layla won’t reveal the accuracy of the speakers). Jazz at the Pawnshop may be the single best CD for evaluating speakers—intimate acoustic instruments carefully recorded with minimal processing. Passion Grace & Fire has some excellent acoustic guitar. Orchestral Spectaculars includes, well, spectacular orchestral pieces such as the Sorcerer’s Apprentice and Les Preludes. Carly Simon was selected for female vocals and Mozart….’nuff said.
The ARs are in my rec room on shelves, about ear level. The KLHs, unfortunately, are relegated to a hallway that measures about 6’ x 25’ with about a 6½’ ceiling. The KLH floor speakers are on one of the long walls but only about 8’ apart. Far from ideal.
I played selections from the CDs listed, walking from the rec room to the hall and back to compare the sound. I like the AR2ax’s. A lot. But it seemed to me the KLH Twelves were more detailed. I’ve heard reviewers say “it was like a veil was lifted” and I was always skeptical, but that’s exactly the effect. The tambourines on Pawn Shop sounded like they were right there with the Twelves. The guitar picking on Passion… had a cleaner “attack” through the Twelves. The bass response was better through the Twelves, but they have about double the cabinet volume of the ARs. I don’t have all the lingo, but overall whether it was vocals, instruments or orchestras, I found the Twelves more accurate.
I probably should have tried the Twelves without the MicroStatic supertweeters—maybe some other time.
The one big surprise came when I reconnected my original, all NPE crossover to one speaker and left the mylar capped crossover on the other. I switched the AR amp to “mono” and compared the sound from the 2 KLHs. To my ear, the all-NPE sounded a little better. Hard to put my finger on it, and I don’t have the reviewer’s lingo, but I thought the NPE xover provided a bit more “shimmer” that was pleasing.
Of course, your mileage may vary
Kent
Hi Kent;
Thank you for your speaker/music review.
Maybe you can report back when the MicroStatic's are not in use, please.
- I do not have “golden ears.” Never did. And as I face my seventh decade (yikes!
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Hi Kent;
I would like to try to draw a schematic of the crossover without CAD.
I bought crayons and coloured pencils for this future project.
Hi again;
I will be using Carl's hand drawn schetch of the KLH Five crossover as a starting example to follow.
There is also a CAD drawing, in the library, of the KLH Five crossover, that is first class.
I do not have a CAD program.
I am not an artist, I still can only draw stick people. LOL LOL
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While I have a couple of ST-70's a Pas-3, PAS-2x and an FM-3 that I am trying to find the time to do some upgrades/modifications to, the gear I use the most is surprisingly a ST-120/PAT-4 with a Technics ST-7300 tuner running through a stacked pair of A-25/A-10's. Usually plays quietly in the background while I am online or trying to lie quietly in the dark with a migraine. Stays tuned to my local college jazz station.
Hi James;
I have mentioned here before that I dine with a friend who was the service manager of the local Dynaco warantee station, every month or so.
He was saying recently that the Stereo 120 was the most popular amplifier ever sold with the Pat-4 pre-amp.
I do not remember the rock bottom prices they went for at the 2 local price killer stores but they sold them by the semi-trailer load, along with the A-25's.
In my years of reading, I have seen the stock Stereo 70 and PAS-3X combination written as a combination to die for, so to speak.
There is numerous modifications published which changes the sound and value of them.
I have never heard this set.
Obviously the speaker system would also be very important due to the low damping factor and power output.
Perhaps 8 ohm Larger Advents might be a good match rather than 4 ohm AR-3A's.
It will be interesting to read others comments in this regards.
I mentioned earlier about not shipping an aligned FM-3 tuner, as the settings change with transit vibrations.
This message is from the AVA website.
The Stereo 120 has the TIP mods.
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Hi Vern
Thank you for the compliments and your comments.
Yes--I had not noticed the wafers on the switches, but there is a difference between my all-npe xover and the mylar/npe one I just finished.
Also did not notice the penciled SN on the plywood, but now that you mentioned it, the xovers that have the "brown wafer" switches are marked in pencil "#240" and "#263." I did not see numbers on the "white wafer switch" plywood. There was a date, hard to read (Sept something) and I see I covered it with Goop to glue down the caps
Interesting note on CR's take on the Twelves vs AR3a's. I don't think the Twelves get the respect they deserve! They are essentially identical to the well-
regarded Fives, but with bigger cabinets so they go deeper. That asset is also a liability.
I bought mine for $100 with local pickup, and that included a KLH Eighteen tuner and an old speaker selector switch! Only problems with the Twelves were:
Missing 3 knobs, terrible sound because of bad caps, a few minor nicks and scratches, tired-looking grille cloth.
They now sound great with the new caps. I'm in the process of refinishing the cabinets and patching the veneer in a couple of places. Not sure what to do about the grille cloth. I have the metal logos but have not reinstalled them yet.
Your comments about the paucity of KLHs in your neck of the woods is interesting. Of course, in New England they were very common. I notice a lot of Dynaco speakers on ebay come from Canada. Guess Dynaco did a better jo of marketing up North!
Yes--the speakers are sometimes sold without the crossovers. Hard to imagine, unless buyers are opting for external electronic crossovers. Expensive, but
probably nice. As I mentioned, I plan to sell one pair of crossovers (don't need two!) so I hope I can recoup the cost of the caps and knobs. Originally I had bought some nice inexpensive retro-style knobs in Rat Shack (shown in one of my previous posts), since 3 of the originals were missing. But the second pair had (only) 3 original knobs, so now I have one complete set!
Could have used that schematic! Maybe then I would have bought the right number (and value) of caps!
Here's a photo of one Twelve. Not finished yet. The xover was moved for the photo but is normally attached to the back with Velcro. More work to do on the finish. New cloth needed. Reinstall logos. Too bad these are in the hall OUTSIDE my rec room!
Kent
Nice looking setup as is, Kent.
The magazine was Consumer's Guide not Consumer's Report, and I believe that magazine is still being published.
I bought a few issues off the local bookstore shelves.
I do not know what Consumer's Report commented about the KLH Twelves.
At about that same time period, that magazine, GG, or at least Micro Acoustics or AR, published a photo of their reference speaker system, used to compare to other brands.
They used an AR-1W woofer system, Janszen 1-30 Electrostatic Arrays, and MicroStatic Tweeter Arrays.
I was very fortunate to be able to write a rubber cheque so that I could borrow a pair of the Janszen's and MicroStatics for a weekend.
I already had my pair of AR-3A's on hand for the woofers, which may have been a better match, with the lower woofer crossing over to the Janszen's.
I was very impressed, not the former wife though, with my AR amplifier, Simon and Garfunkle never sounded better, I'm sure my neighbours hated me that weekend at least.
Dynaco was heavily dumped here, at rock bottom prices by two store chains.
Dynaco A-25's at $52.00 CDN each, limited to two pair in that store at door opening, mind you.
My big bros was there at door opening to see.
I think that hifi like so many other products, if you don't offer spiffs, exclusivity, or huge profits, you don't get the shelf or floor space.
The very first hifi system I ever bought was in 1965, as an adult, it was not very good, I was suckered in by a dis-reputable salesman, he was very good and experienced at it and I was not.
A week later, I was downtown, AGAIN, with Consumer's Report's in hand, AGAIN, and I heard a very large, clear speaker system in another store.
A wall of speakers, perhaps 20 - 30 mixed pairs or more, were facing me.
The large speaker system was in fact, the AR-4X's, sounding much, very much larger than it's diminutive size.
That started my hifi bug, even moreso.
At just over $1.00 per hour as an apprentice, I was already financed to just under $600.00, so it was a few years before I could see my way to upgrade anything.
He did give me about 50 feet of thin, very thin speaker wire at no extra charge though, so there is that. LOL LOL
Even though I was interested in AR , AR had quite a battle with the poor commissions, badmouthing and profit margins being offered.
Maybe if I had been introduced to KLH, I might be a different person now, richer and married, that is for sure. LOL LOL
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So--Here is the completed crossover with the Madisound caps listed above. I'm burning them in now. Could not use polys for the 50uF caps, so I went with NPEs. Any NPE should fit.
THANKS RoyC for all your guidance!
BTW-- I STILL can't count right. You only need two 8uF caps OR one 16uF per crossover, so the count above should be FOUR 8uF caps (not 6). Sorry
I seriously doubt I'll hear any difference between the mylars and the NPEs. Will try to sell one pair of crossovers (probably the first pair with all NPEs) when these are finished.
Kent
Hi Kent;
Nice job and photo.
Did you see the penciled, on the plywood, serial number, in each of your crossovers?
I see that you have different switches looking at the wafers, than mine.
Your's look very familiar to me, can't place the manufacturer for the life of me.
Long ago, in a far off land, I always wanted to do this, LOL, when the KLH Twelve was being sold, along with the AR-3A's, Consumer Guide Magazine suggested either one as, the very finest speakers available and to judge for yourself which is better for you.
There was no mention, that I can remember, now at least, that the Twelves were almost twice the size and weight of the AR-3A's, which might upset the wives a little.
The Twelves are about the size of older tv consoles, sitting on the floor, a little too big for the average shelf.
My feeling that they do not sell too well, is, that their shipping cost, about $400.00 US a pair, to ship to Canada, size, and lack of recognition compared to the AR-3A's.
From some of the bad packaging I have seen with just speaker drivers, who knows what the Twelves might arrive like.
I picked up my pair about 12 years ago, for about $100.00 for the pair, locally.
I wrote previously about how I accidently discovered them in a pawn shop as I was leaning over the speaker to see the rear of an electronic crossover and wow, there was the crossovers looking up at me.
They were attached with their Velcro to the top rear of the speakers, otherwise, I would not have recognized them and would never have seen another pair to this day.
They took up the entire back seat of my small van, and they are heavy beast's.
In all the years of hi-fi-ing, I have seen 2 pairs of KLH Seventeens in one home and a pair of KLH Nines used in a demonstration in another.
KLH was not very well promoted, as I remember, here in Vancouver at least.
I wrote a comment earlier about seeing separate speakers and crossovers on different auctions.
I can't imagine a buyer, not being rather livid, to find out the the $35.00 speaker system, that cost $300.00 delivered, and damaged, has not got a crossover and they do not come along too often by themselves.
I wonder how many owners connect up to the bare rear speaker terminals and play around without knowing what they are doing.
I would like to try to draw a schematic of the crossover without CAD.
I bought crayons and coloured pencils for the future project.
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Hi Carl;
You may very well be correct.
I would think that the original compound was probably another compound, used commercally, and not good for anyones health and was discontinued.
I didn't see any safety gear in those photos of person's applying the compound.
It certainly possibly wasn't the first such case, as I worked with asbestos, un-protected, in the heating industry for decades.
My first employer for 9 years, did not have ANY safety practices setup.
Hi again;
I recently wrote in the Advent forum regarding using, 3M #847 Rubber and Gasket Adhesive, for re-foaming surrounds.
It has been used here in Vancouver speaker service departments for many years for the purpose of bonding the foam surrounds to the speaker frames successfully.
This compound does not specify that it remains sticky, or not, as in non-hardening, the same as the Permatex High Tack Gasket Sealant does.
I wonder if this might also be useful for re-coating the cloth surrounds. MMMMMM
I believe it was, Roy, that wrote, Permatex, appeared not to be suitable for re-foaming projects.
The 3M is about 50% more expensive than the Permatex.
$60.00 CDN for 32 oz of 3M and $20.00 CDN for 16 oz Permatex, both non-mailable of course.
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My current system I am using is a restored Dynaco ST-70 amplifier, Dynaco PAS-3 preamp, Dynaco AF-6 tuner (I know, its solid state, I didn't restore my FM-5 tube tuner yet) and Dynaco A-25 Speakers.
Merry Christmas to all,
Sal
Hi Sal;
Nice system.
If you bought every when they were new you bought very good value equipment.
There is also help for restoring your FM-3 tube tuner to near new specs.
A few pages of tips, not mine either, which holds your hand to eliminate the worry of failure.
Due to it's current website location, I cannot download it here but I can tell you where to go later.
As a warning, do not ship an FM-3 tube tuner, as the transit shock changes some of the settings, unavoidably.
Do you have all of the Dynaco manuals, particulary the FM-3 tuner?
There again, some are available free.
Which version of Dynaco A-25's do you have?
Scan, with the vent above the tweeter or Seas, with the vent below the woofer?
If you were to ever remove the grille cloths of the A-25's, you must unscrew the Dynaco logos CCW first, to remove them, othewise you will break the bond with the plate and the screw.
That screw penetrates the front baffle board also.
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they ain't the prettiest (some nicks, bashed rear corners, unoriginal woofers)
but they've got the crossovers, tweets and mids in good shape, and I only paid $36 !
I've got a set of 5 woofers in the basement, which will make these guys happy again.
has anyone recapped these crossovers ? whats your cap-of-choice ?
Hi again;
I was just thinking about some of the ebay auctions I have seen over the years.
KLH Twelve speaker cabinets sold without the controllers and the controllers sold without the speaker systems.
Either way, a headache for the successful buyers trying to find it's mate.
You just paid about what the two tweeters alone are going for, good deal.
I wonder what a stacked pair of KLH Twelves would sound like?
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Wouldn't it be funny if we somhow found out that Permatex (or something very similar) is what was used originally to seal these classic speaker's cloth surrounds?
It behaves pretty much the same with respect to its tackiness.
Hi Carl;
You may very well be correct.
I would think that the original compound was probably another compound, used commercally, and not good for anyones health and was discontinued.
I didn't see any safety gear in those photos of person's applying the compound.
It certainly possibly wasn't the first such case, as I worked with asbestos, un-protected, in the heating industry for decades.
My first employer for 9 years, did not have ANY safety practices setup.
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Martin:
Permatex and Armor All do different things. Armor All is a surface coating that appears to maintain the long-term flexiblity of rubber and plastic surfaces. It would appear to prevent those surfaces from drying - that is why one uses it on interior plastic auto surfaces and such. It would be applied infrequently for such purposes. Just because there is no visible effect in a day does not mean that it is not doing its job! Armor-All is, if you wish, rejuvinating these surfaces, or slowing their aging.
Permatex is a thin rubber or rubber-like coating that seals. Roy C noted that it tends to mix with the existing butyl rubber; that's a good sign, it means it is bonding well with the exisiting coating. Permatex is re-sealing the cloth surround. Roy's comment about the use of solvent to remove the loosly bonded old seal before adding new material makes a lot of sense, as this keeps the final seal as thin as possible.
In order to measure / hear the difference in performance, one must repair one of a pair, then remeasure / listen. Neither Roy nor I has found any thick latex or paint-based product that will not adversely affect the free resonance of a woofer. As far as we know we are the only ones who are speaking from experience with Permatex - we welcome others to try it and report their results to TCSP. Especially, if you own Woofer Tester or the like and can made a before / after measurements!
Cheers
Hi John;
Just in case other members want to buy the, Permatex High Tack Gasket Adhesive, compound it is readily available from most all auto supply houses.
I just looked at two samples, the smaller 4 oz #80062 can is less than $10.00 CDN retail.
The larger 16 oz #80063 can is less than $19.00 CDN retail.
Please read all precautions before using it.
It is too dangerous to mail.
Since I started reading this web sites many interesting write-ups, ArmorAll has been brought up here and there for using on AR cloth surrounds to re-seal them.
I do not believe that the use of ArmorAll has done any harm to those surrounds, it just didn't seal them as we would have liked, no matter how many coats were applied.
Certainly very much less than latex paint, glue or silicone thinned.
ArmorAll was never designed to be our final solution.
As with the passing of time, another more appropriate current solution has been discovered which will help prolong those classic cloth surrounds of, AR and KLH, to name but two brands, that used them.
This non-hardening sealant, brushed on, will seal those surrounds and dustcaps where applicable.
EXCLUDING only the 12.5 KLH dustcap.
One coat application, direct from the can, with no concern for the few holes in the surrounds not filled in.
The cans even come with a dauber for applying the solution.
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they ain't the prettiest (some nicks, bashed rear corners, unoriginal woofers)
but they've got the crossovers, tweets and mids in good shape, and I only paid $36 !
I've got a set of 5 woofers in the basement, which will make these guys happy again.
has anyone recapped these crossovers ? whats your cap-of-choice ?
Hi there;
I watched that auction.
I have downloaded two photos here, one original crossover and one after modifications.
The modified photo is Kent's working crossover, I believe, the earlier one may also be Kent's.
Kent may wish to comment on that project.
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our esteemed members - Roy Champagne, Ken Kantor, Minh Luong, John O’Hanlon, Bret Thiel, and Tom Tyson
Thank you very much for all of your combined efforts, to make this site another standout, with this beautiful work of art manual.
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Hi Guys, I'm confused , is the Permetex used to rejuvinate or re-seal ? Earlier it was mentioned Amour-All to rejuvinate, but not for sealing. Or, as read later, clean (remove) old sealant, then apply Permatex which will then do both. (?)
Hi there;
I would delete the word re-juvinate and just use re-seal and preserve our cloth surrounds, with the non-hardening and flexible Permatex High Tack Adhesive.
As of a recent discoverey by RoyC, thank you again RoyC, forget using ArmorAll for any speaker use at all.
It appears that ArmorAll is not applicable for the cloth surround re-sealing, with our speakers at least.
It has been suggested that, alcohol/acetone, be used to, clean/re-move, some/all, factory coating, only from the surround.
Not from the cone!
When cleaning, be careful around the surround/frame/cone glue area, so as to not to disolve the factory glue.
This procedure is only if the surround is in need of re-coating.
Using the Permatex High Tack Adhesive, one light coat, un-thinned, to re-seal the cloth surrounds.
Do not attempt to seal absolutely every surround pore.
If the dust cap has a coating from the factory, this may also need a slight touch-up.
This is also applicable to KLH drivers, but do not touch the 12.5 dust cap.
The cleaning/removal of the earlier factory applied compound may or may not needed.
Obviously a virgin material will accept and seal better than a dusty and previously coated material.
As a suggestion, acid swabs, used to apply acid flux when soldering copper piping, are only about 5 or 10 cents each and if you want you can just throw it away when finished, rather than a paint brush.
These are usually available at any plumbing supply house/Home Depot.
My suggestion is to place a sticker or label on the rear of each driver re-coated, if out of the enclosure and/or rear of the cabinet, if not, with the date and what was done.
It will be interesting to read our results here in 10 or so years.
We are indebted to you RoyC.
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Hi Roy;
Have you given any thought of using this solution for re-foaming the foam surrounds, instead of the white glue?
According to the spec sheets it is a non-hardening gasket adhesive.
It would be nice if it is dual purpose.
I know that 3M has a similar adhesive that works great on foam surrounds and it may also be usable as a surround coating.
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Hi there;
I just went to the Loctite website.
They have a Material Safety Data Sheet, 3 pages long, that MUST be read by all potential users!
It must be treated as a very touchy item and great care must be exercised, if used.
Use it outdoors!
There maybe a skin or respiratory reaction.
Basicly treat it the same as you would Acetone.
As I was reading the product information, I was seeing that maybe it could also be used as a surround re-foam adhesive.
It would be nice if it can be used as a dual purpose solution.
Nice that it is readily available, locally as well.
Sorry if this kinda puts a damper on this topic, but we must be very careful in it's application.
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Hi Vern and John,
Attached are some photos of the sealant John mentioned.
It is "High Tack Gasket Sealant" made by Permatex (product # 80062 for a 4oz can or 80063 for a 15oz can). It is butyl rubber based, does not harden, and remains sticky, much like the original woofer surround sealants. John had luck thinning it with acetone, which makes it easier to apply, though it seems thin enough right out of the can for most applications. One thin coat does the trick. A 10" KLH woofer I recently treated had an fs of 34-35hz before and after treatment..virtually unchanged.
Along the way I experimented with a number of the white surround "treatments". This group included the stuff sold by Simply Speakers, Orange County, M-Sound, and Global Adhesives (who labels it "white surround dampener"). These are all water soluble/PVA based, and as advertised, dry more flexibly than regular white glue. They are also advertised as being able to be used for a "wet look" on woofer cones. The problem with all of them is that they gradually stiffen. One 3a woofer I experimented on went from an fs of 16hz upon treatment to 32hz after one month! I experienced similar results with all brands on a variety of surrounds. As for Armorall, I have not found it to improve performance in any way. It certainly doesn't seal anything.
Before applying the Permatex sealant, it is advisable to try to carefully remove the old sealant with alcohol and/or acetone if it has stiffened. Care must be taken not to un-glue the surround from the cone.
Unfortunately I cannot recommend using the Permatex sealant on foam surrounds, as the solvents in it appeared to shrink or deform some of the surrounds I experimented with.
Roy
Hi Roy;
Thank you very much for your very thorough report.
Certainly gives us all an option for rejuvenating our old AR and KLH cloth surrounds.
I tried to think of another speaker company that used cloth surrounds in our classic speakers, I couldn't think of any.
As a side note, I wanted to print out this write-up.
I wasn't successful finding a way to print it out, yet.
I did save the attachments, but not the printout.
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<Other than, Tom Tyson's, please correct me if I am wrong, suggestion to use ArmorAll to rejuvinate AR cloth surrounds, 2 coats 24 hours apart, there seems to be no other information.>
Armoral will not seal leaks in butyl-coated surrounds. Never has, never will. It will plug leaks for a minute to see if the cabinet is tight, then evaporate. It may well *maintain* cloth surrounds in a flexible condition; it may *soften* hard surrounds (rejuvinate), but that is not the same as patching holes big enough for a flea and all of his cousins to walk through! Armoral is used on vinyl car upholstery to maintain its suppleness - in the desert we use it on vinyl pool furniture to slow UV and chlorine attack.
The material we formerly used was "Loctite Butyl Rubber Sealant" diluted with hexane or lacquer thinner to the consistency of water before applying with a brush. Unfortunately, Loctite no longer make this material. Roy C has found an alternative, which he will describe in a day or so - when he finishes gathering data.
More than one of us has tried the latex glue formulations that are used for gluing surrounds and find that they increase the Fs of drivers and therefore are not suitable. It is hard to justify the price of the Orange County stuff which is likely similar to that I have used from Parts Express. The beauty of Roy's material is that it is not costly and remains flexible.
But let's allow him to toot his own discovery.
Cheers,
John O'Hanlon
Hi John;
What do you have against flea's and their cousins? LOL
Do you know approximately when the, "Loctite Butyl Rubber Sealant", was discontinued?
Looking forward to Roy's report on a new and available solution.
Thank you, John, for your write-up.
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Hi there;
I was day-dreaming, again, about all the write-ups regarding the, KLH butyl speaker surround coating of their many speaker surrounds.
It appears that in a KLH service bulletin, that the warantee depot would apply an additional coating of the KLH supplied butyl material.
I believe that Kent mentioned recently in the KLH forum that a particualr manufacturer does not make it anymore.
Other than, Tom Tyson's, please correct me if I am wrong, suggestion to use ArmorAll to rejuvinate AR cloth surrounds, 2 coats 24 hours apart, there seems to be no other information.
At least at this time, there is no mention of the solution that AR used or any follow-up coatings.
Surely there must be a source for liquid butyl, today, I do not mean only in 45 gallon drums either.
Aleenes watered down glue has been brought up, water downed latex sealant, as well as a liquid compound by a mailorder speaker repair company.
I have been looking at a pair of early used AR-2AX speakers that I bought this past year.
They both have the old aluminum frame, alnico magnet woofer with cloth surrounds.
The woofers both have a set of 4, hand applied x's, of a liquid compound, as well as a smear of it on the dust domes.
The X's are not uniform in size or shape but definitely hand painted on the cone material.
I assume this is to add weight to the cone and cutdown on cone-cry.
Has anyone here used ArmorAll and can say that this is a suitable substitute for the factory original material.
Is two coatings enough, or should we use more?
It is strange that when these speakers were produced, in the 1960's, there has been no mention of a sealant for the surrounds ever since.
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This Dynaco forum is dedicated to Dynaco speakers (which I use) but I think it would be of interest for our members to list what other Dynaco equipment (electronics) are used. As for me:
Amplifiers (two monoblocks) - Home-brew Ultra-linear Williamsons with Dynaco 430 output transformers
Preamp - Dynaco PAT-5 (BiFET version)
Equalizer - Dynaco SE-10
Also, a 'retired'' (but functioning) PAS-3X
Other components are non-Dynaco.
John
Hi John;
I use a Double Dyna 400 once in a while when I am tired of my Crown DC300A. LOL
I also have a PAT-5 BiFet as a spare for my Crown IC-150 pre-amp.
An AR fm tuner is my main music source but I also have a Dynaco FM-5 and AF-6 for backups.
My AR turntable w/Rabco SL-8E arm w/Stanton 681 EE cartridge, is not my original purchase and a Marantz 63SE supplies the cd music.
It appears that with my hearing loss, I could get by with a lot of less expensive low fi equipment and without tweeters too. LOL
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Hi again Kent;
I see that the photo that you took has a whizzer cone on it's Philips driver.
This is another use I believe for the Philips driver, less whizzer cone.
Dahlquist DQ-10.
I may be wrong about the identity of this driver here.
Any chance please of a rear magnet photo of your OEM Advent woofer/ fullrange driver.
It reminds me of a Seas driver in cone appearance only from the front.
Did Henry Kloss design that smaller system himself?
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Hi Kent;
I just ran through the various threads on this topic.
I see I was leaning on the KLH fullrange driver, not an Advent, DUH.
Looking forward to your driver front photo.
I was thinking that it would have an inverted 1/2 roll surround, the same as the KLH 12.5 driver.
The Dahlquist DQ-10 speaker is not something I am familiar with at all.
Here is a front and rear photo with, I believe, a Philips midrange driver.
If so, it will be with it's own plastic casing.
I may be wrong here.
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>Vern, here is an original Advent driver and a comparison of
>the Advent (top) and Philips (bottom). The Advent had a 4-bolt
>mounting pattern, the Philips 8. The Philips is mounted on an
>aluminum adaptor plate.
>btw--what was the "well known speaker that was highly
>praised in it's day"?
>Kent
>
Hi Kent;
Could you please post a front photo of the original Advent driver.
This is the very first time I ever saw one, thank you.
Any thought as to where or whom manufactured them for Advent?
Cloth surround?
Alnico magnet?
Certainly not an amatuer adapter plate.
Any reviews of the driver that you can reveal?
My memory is getting worse, those Philips photos were from a really recent auction, in the past week or so, I believe an Infinity model?, it was stated but I forgot to note it, sorry.
This was not the most noteworthy model speaker I was trying to think of.
Other than my test bench speakers, I was never a Philips speaker driver fan, cheap and accessable, at that time.
I just remember that the driver was not special compared to AR, Advent, etc, but they did show up on occasion, to my surprise.
There was at least 3 or 4 models of different brand speakers that used at least one version of that driver, from the front view.
Philips dome tweeters were used as well.
If I come across other photo examples, I'll post them here.
Looking back now I do not know why I didn't use AR or Dynaco drivers?
Perhaps because we didn't have the coils, caps, etc, and the sturdy, nicely assembled cabinets for one reason.
I built from scratch, plywood cabinets for the Philips drivers I used.
There certainly is a lot more to making a sturdy speaker cabinet than it appears from afar.
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>Interesting. I see there is a single Advent 400 speaker on
>ebay now and it appears to have the same driver. Was that a
>standard replacement? The aluminum adaptor plate appears to be
>manufactured--not a DIY
>
>Here's the link to the ebay item
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...:MEWA:IT&ih=019
>
Hi again;
This is a set of recent photo's for an auction for the encased Philips driver.
This was an option used in cases of mid use, rather than fullrange.
They were removed from a well known speaker that was highly praised in it's day.
Manufacturers were faced with the optional case or making one themselves, such as was used in the AR-1 or AR-2 dual tweeters.
The last 2 photo's are from the auction you make reference to.
My best guess is that the Philips driver fit the mounting pattern and was well advertised back then.
Unless one has the correct unit, who can tell what sounds best.
Unless someone comes forward with a photo of an original Advent driver, I do not know what one looks like.
My mind kept thinking about the KLH fullrange driver all along.
Kloss's Advent fullrange may have used a Philips driver all along.
As always, the dimpled dust domes are optional. LOL
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Hi Kent;
If you keep your eyes open on ebay, you will see the great number of older speaker systems that used this Philips driver, tweeters and sometimes even their woofers.
I built a 3-way Philips speaker system for my test bench back in the 1970's, fused of course.
The younger shop techie used an AR 12" woofer to test his amp repairs, it made the amps really work, or not.
Because of the supply and demand, I would replace the Philips with an OEM KLH mid/fullrange driver.
A proven entity.
I only remember that Philips used as a mid, not as a fullrange driver.
) on the planet this year, my ears may be headed toward tin.
KLH 12's - another hole in my KLH collection filled . .
in KLH
Posted
Hi again;
The tweeter used in the KLH Twelve and other KLH models was always well received in reviews, as I remember.
Maybe not perfect, it is a dynamic tweeter and not an electrostatic tweeter.
Certainly speaks well of it's solid design and range, when it is used in more than one model KLH speaker.
The model 12.5 mids, were full-range when used on their own, or as midrange drivers in tandem, as used in the KLH Fives and Twelves, which required separate sealed sub-enclosures for them.
Pretty amazing feat for such a small driver with only a cloth surround.
The same woofers, also only with cloth surrounds, were used in the KLH Twenty-Three's, Five's, and Twelve's, attesting to their robust construction, as well.
With KLH doing their in-house driver manufacturing, their quality control was very tight and positive.
With the floor standing cabinet's each being 29" high x 22" wide x 15" deep and not too much under 100 pounds each, it was fighting the WAF.
Being a floor standing speaker and twice the size of the AR-3A's, it does appear that an instore display would have, in most cases, be against the size of the KLH Twelves, against the smaller and shelf friendlier AR-3A's, nevermind sound comparisons.
Yes, it would be nice to have a battle of the speakers, so to speak.
An AR-3a vs KLH Twelve and AR-5 vs KLH Five friendly battle, would make for an interesting and entertaining comparison.
Yes, the KLH Twelves can be wall mounted, with special re-inforcements.
They can also be stacked.