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Busting The Myth of the "early" A-25


Dynacophil

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Hi

There is a myth i find quoted in countless postings, discussions, ebay-descriptions, based on an info given (second hand?) on Greg Dunns (ery informative)HP, that tells: the A-25 with Vent above and ScanSpeak-Drivers would be the "early" A-25. I had a lot of investigations since the early 90s since i am into Dynaco stuff. Also a intense e-mail contact to some former and still seniors of SEAS.

After the following informations the story above must be a legend.

Some facts i figured out by the Informations i received thru Bjorn Borja, Senior Audio Designer @seas.no:

1950: SEAS was founded

1965: ScanDyna as a Brand was founded by Peter Hasselriis

1969: A-25 production started

1970: Scan-Speak was founded by 2 SEAS Engineers Ragnar Lian and Mogens Hvass

Bjorn Borja told me:

The A-25 was designed mainly by David Hafler (Dynaco) and Ragnar Lian (SEAS) in the late 60ies. The drive units had just been developed and put into production in Norway, and were sent to SEAS' daugther company in Videbaek, Denmark where they were mounted into cabinets produced in Denmark. The finisked loudspeakers were sent by container to USA. We estimate that almost 1 million loudspeakers were sent altogether.

Bjorn Borja about ScanDyna:

ScanDyna used SEAS drivers, but possibly also other brands. I believe they used a 1" Philips dome tweeter for a while.

Scandyna HP:

The company was founded by Peter Hasselriis in 1965 with an ambition to produce high quality, naturally sounding speakers for a discerning audience.

Bjorn Borja about Scan-Speak:

In fact, two of the founders of ScanSpeak were engineers who had been central in the development of the SEAS drivers: Ragnar Lian and Mogens Hvass. Scan-Speak was founded 1970

Bjorn Borja about the A-25xl:

I was involved in the development of A-25xl in the mid/late 70ies. There had been some comments on the poor dispersion of the 1.5" dome tweeter, so we fitted our newly developed 1" tweeter H086, and modified the crossover somewhat. But this improvement was not sufficient to overcome the problems with the exchange rate.

For me, the essence is: The legend of the "early" A-25 with Vent above and ScanSpeak-Drivers is impossible, because Scan-Speak was founded one year after the A-25 first was produced.

The A-25 was developed by SEAS in cooperation w. Dynaco/Hafler, and produced in Denmark at SEAS from 1969 with SEAS Drivers produced at SEAS Norway. So it is a fact that the real "early" A-25 are w/Seas drivers - and maybe Vent above...

The versions with Scan-Speak-Drivers MUST date 1970 earliest, and are not the early A-25.

ScanDyna, founded earlier than Scan-Speak, was using both, SEAS AND Scan-Speak-Drivers in its production lines and also had connections to B&O. ScanDyna also was used as the european distributor for Dynaco gear as i heard out of other sources.

What do you think....? Is the myth busted?

Helge

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Hi

There is a myth i find quoted in countless postings, discussions, ebay-descriptions, based on an info given (second hand?) on Greg Dunns (ery informative)HP, that tells: the A-25 with Vent above and ScanSpeak-Drivers would be the "early" A-25. I had a lot of investigations since the early 90s since i am into Dynaco stuff. Also a intense e-mail contact to some former and still seniors of SEAS.

After the following informations the story above must be a legend.

Some facts i figured out by the Informations i received thru Bjorn Borja, Senior Audio Designer @seas.no:

1950: SEAS was founded

1965: ScanDyna as a Brand was founded by Peter Hasselriis

1969: A-25 production started

1970: Scan-Speak was founded by 2 SEAS Engineers Ragnar Lian and Mogens Hvass

Bjorn Borja told me:

Bjorn Borja about ScanDyna:

Scandyna HP:

Bjorn Borja about Scan-Speak:

Bjorn Borja about the A-25xl:

For me, the essence is: The legend of the "early" A-25 with Vent above and ScanSpeak-Drivers is impossible, because Scan-Speak was founded one year after the A-25 first was produced.

The A-25 was developed by SEAS in cooperation w. Dynaco/Hafler, and produced in Denmark at SEAS from 1969 with SEAS Drivers produced at SEAS Norway. So it is a fact that the real "early" A-25 are w/Seas drivers - and maybe Vent above...

The versions with Scan-Speak-Drivers MUST date 1970 earliest, and are not the early A-25.

ScanDyna, founded earlier than Scan-Speak, was using both, SEAS AND Scan-Speak-Drivers in its production lines and also had connections to B&O. ScanDyna also was used as the european distributor for Dynaco gear as i heard out of other sources.

What do you think....? Is the myth busted?

Helge

Hi Helge;

Thank you for this information.

The following I will be referring only to the Classic Dynaco A-25 speaker, not the later XL version.

Greg Dunn's website has been the main Dynaco reference site for a number of years now, un-disputed.

There is the claim that a M. Stauning of Seas Fabrikker was the designer of the original A-25 speaker system.

This speaker system was a 4 ohms driver system.

There has been no photo's published of that prototype, as yet.

Ed Laurent was Dynaco's Director of Speaker Development from 1970 - 1976.

He requested that the drivers be designed as 8 ohm drivers.

There has been no mention, as yet, as to the vent location, below the woofer or above the tweeter, other than in Dynaco's own brochures and magazine reviews.

Stereophile's, J. Gordon Holt, did not mention the driver or vent layout of the pair he had reviewed.

I had almost every magazine review of the Dynaco A-25 speaker, even from England.

I do not remember them ever showing or mentioning any speaker front other than the Seas A-25 with the vent below the horned woofer.

There has been an un-disputed understanding that the earlier drivers were Scan, not Seas.

Now you raise an interesting point here, Scan-Speak, or ScanDyna.

The two very similar but different names may be causing us some confusion here.

Scan is the name I remember at this point.

These would have been with the vent above the tweeter.

I own both sets but I do not feel like opening them up at this time to check out the drivers, dates, etc..

From around 1972 - 1974 I worked here at the local Dynaco warantee depot.

I saw a pair of A-25's on display at a local hifi store and I could see through the grille cloth that the vent was above the tweeter.

When I went to work, I presented this information to the service manager and he was not aware of this.

Remembering that this was pre-computer and fax machines.

The only issue that does clearly come to my mind, is the fact that Scan round aluminum cast frames woofers, were never replaced with like.

Only Seas, horned, woofers were supplied as warantee replacements, as I remember.

There was a slight amount of chiseling to be done where the horns needed an easy recess cut.

I will ask him if he can remember any other information as to whether the Scan were available originally as warantee replacements.

Maybe they were discontined prior to my working there.

This is so long ago, he may not remember this little detail.

There is some discrepancies with classic A-25's which I have seen on ebay over the years:

Vent above the tweeter ( scarcer )

Vent below the woofer ( typical of the Sea's version )

Same model number and serial number sequence used without any different notations

Mirror image tweeter locations

Tweeter on right side of cabinet

Tweeter on left side of cabinet

Two or more different woofer frames, round perimeter and horned, where the screw holes were.

Different magnet sizes, I have a selection to check this out later ( yes, there was also the A-50 16 ohm woofer, same 2 frame sizes, different impedance only )

Two or more different tweeters ( Scan and Seas ) ( possibly a 3rd even, with a separate mounting frame )

Five position switches, with a screwdriver slot and with a shaft and knob

Factory printed, Made in Denmark and rubber stamped, Made in Denmark

Oiled Walnut particle board cabinets ( I believe Teak was also an option ) some front and rear cabinet boards were a red colour

I've also seen an angled/oval grille cloth masonite board cutout for the woofer to the tweeter, rather that the picture frame with the small partition between the drivers, most commonly seen.

I am certain I will remember something else after the editing time runs out.

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Hi Dan

After an our of quoting I have been told thatr the number of quotings is limited, but not about the limit.... life ain’t easy...

The following I will be referring only to the Classic Dynaco A-25 speaker, not the later XL version. Greg Dunn's website has been the main Dynaco reference site for a number of years now, un-disputed.

Ok, and: i use it as reference as long it exists... but :blink:

There is the claim that a M. Stauning of Seas Fabrikker was the designer of the original A-25 speaker system. This speaker system was a 4 ohms driver system. There has been no photo's published of that prototype, as yet. Ed Laurent was Dynaco's Director of Speaker Development from 1970 - 1976.He requested that the drivers be designed as 8 ohm drivers.

this is what i read, but this differs from the informations that i have from Bjorn Bjorna/SEAS - don't know about Tech Specs of the prototypes.

in 1970? so, there has been a year of production before this era. I figure, that the developement must been before the production, so the development must have been in 1968 or earlier, when mass production started in early 1969.

There has been no mention, as yet, as to the vent location, below the woofer or above the tweeter, other than in Dynaco's own brochures and magazine reviews. Stereophile's, J. Gordon Holt, did not mention the driver or vent layout of the pair he had reviewed. I had almost every magazine review of the Dynaco A-25 speaker, even from England. I do not remember them ever showing or mentioning any speaker front other than the Seas A-25 with the vent below the horned woofer.

There has been an un-disputed understanding that the earlier drivers were Scan, not Seas.

i can't tell this bout me...

thats what i found... no official note... i don't remember any official photograph w/o grille

yes, but proven by what...? Where was this brand located, from when til when, for me it still seems to be a ghost-brand...

I guess first to do, is finding out about the existance of a brand "Scan" and its time range. I am a long time into hifi, and there is nearly no brand, even exotes, that i not have heard sometime about. But, not guaranteed, i am only human and i am not even close to perfection...

Now you raise an interesting point here, Scan-Speak, or ScanDyna. The two very similar but different names may be causing us some confusion here.

Scan is the name I remember at this point.

These would have been with the vent above the tweeter.

I own both sets but I do not feel like opening them up at this time to check out the drivers, dates, etc..

ScanDyna was a dedication brand for european distribution of also Dynaco products and other stuff. There are Receivers sold under ScanDyna for example.

Scan-Speak was a only Speaker Production and different people, ex SEAS Engineers.

I never ever heard about a brand "Scan" in my life as i mentioned before, Scan was used as a part of a brand by a lot scandinavian brands, but not alone afaik.

I will check out the contact about a brand "Scan", there also must be a register of brands. Which country (Denmark or Norway) did this brand belong to? I remember f.e. Scan-Line, Scan-whatever.

I have a pair of A-25 branded Dynaco with SEAS Drivers and Vent above. No serial or datasheet on the back, sorry...

I would open them, for recapping or so anyway... but i would open the pair up to check.

From around 1972 - 1974 I worked here at the local Dynaco warantee depot.

at that time Scan-Speak already existed and also had involved into the SEAS Scan-Speak-Dynaco-ScanDyna thing... (were also B&O was involved in a way). It must have been a bit confusing, as I heard, even Scan-Speak bought SEAS Drivers in case of need for their Production of speakers, and in fact the Speakers of SEAS and Scan-Speak are relatives with parents out of the same family.

I saw a pair of A-25's on display at a local hifi store and I could see through the grille cloth that the vent was above the tweeter. When I went to work, I presented this information to the service manager and he was not aware of this.

was this just a different layout but principally same construction or is there a deeper sense behind the position of the vent.? I can't hear a difference.

Remembering that this was pre-computer and fax machines. The only issue that does clearly come to my mind, is the fact that Scan round aluminum cast frames woofers, were never replaced with like. Only Seas, horned, woofers were supplied as warantee replacements, as I remember. I will ask him if he can remember any other information as to whether the Scan were available originally as warantee replacements. Maybe they were discontined prior to my working there. This is so long ago, he may not remember this little detail.

Ok, but u can tell from 1972. There may have been examples with Scan-Speak drivers already, (both, SEAS AND Scan-Speak, used drivers of the other in case of need for own production, as i’ve been told). But officially there may have been only one, the SEAS, replacement.

Bjorn even told me about a problem, because SEAS delivered large amounts of drivers to Scan-Speak and losing millions cause Scan-Speak was bancruft meanwhile.

My A-25 w/vent above btw have the horned woofers...

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Boar...ost&id=3152

Time is a problem, try to figure out the recalls of some people to make some kind of timetable...

There was a slight amount of chiseling to be done where the horns needed an easy recess cut.

Yes, the cutouts were different...

1. There is some discrepancies with classic A-25's which I have seen on ebay over the years:

2. Vent above the tweeter (scarcer)

3. Vent below the woofer (typical of the Sea's version)

4. Same model number and serial number sequence used without any different notations

5. Mirror image tweeter locations

6. Tweeter on right side of cabinet

7. Tweeter on left side of cabinet

8. Two or more different woofer frames, round perimeter and horned, where the screw holes were.

9. Different magnet sizes, I have a selection to check this out later ( yes, there was also the A-50 16 ohm woofer, same 2 frame sizes, different impedance only )

10. Two or more different tweeters ( Scan and Seas ) ( possibly a 3rd even, with a separate mounting frame )

11. Five position switches, with a screwdriver slot and with a shaft and knob

12. Factory printed, Made in Denmark and rubber stamped, Made in Denmark

13. Oiled Walnut particle board cabinets ( I believe Teak was also an option ) some front and rear cabinet boards were a red colour

14. I've also seen an angled/oval grille cloth masonite board cutout for the woofer to the tweeter, rather that the picture frame with the small partition between the drivers, most commonly seen.

I am certain I will remember something else after the editing time runs out.

1.) yes... a lot!

2.) yes..

3.) yes, but there also have been SEAS driven with vent above...

4.) yes

5.) yes

6.) yes

7.) yes, on ebay i've seen most of the variations, sometimes mixed up..

8.) yes, depending on brand of drivers used.

9.) can't tell, never measured this...

10.) 1.5" tweeters and 1" Tweeters in the later and xl Version

11.) 5 Position switch shall be xl version

12.) can't tell

13.) can't devide wood, but my are walnut i guess. all of them.

14.) never seen this.

I also found: Tweeters positioned very close to to woofer, outlines crossing each other or Tweeter a little away.

Helge

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  • 2 weeks later...

There's a pair with the unusual grille frame on Ebay right now. I've never owned one.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...rksid=p3907.m29

I've never seen a SEAS pair with the port above the tweeter.

Hi Dan

After an our of quoting I have been told thatr the number of quotings is limited, but not about the limit.... life ain’t easy...

Ok, and: i use it as reference as long it exists... but :D

this is what i read, but this differs from the informations that i have from Bjorn Bjorna/SEAS - don't know about Tech Specs of the prototypes.

in 1970? so, there has been a year of production before this era. I figure, that the developement must been before the production, so the development must have been in 1968 or earlier, when mass production started in early 1969.

i can't tell this bout me...

thats what i found... no official note... i don't remember any official photograph w/o grille

yes, but proven by what...? Where was this brand located, from when til when, for me it still seems to be a ghost-brand...

I guess first to do, is finding out about the existance of a brand "Scan" and its time range. I am a long time into hifi, and there is nearly no brand, even exotes, that i not have heard sometime about. But, not guaranteed, i am only human and i am not even close to perfection...

ScanDyna was a dedication brand for european distribution of also Dynaco products and other stuff. There are Receivers sold under ScanDyna for example.

Scan-Speak was a only Speaker Production and different people, ex SEAS Engineers.

I never ever heard about a brand "Scan" in my life as i mentioned before, Scan was used as a part of a brand by a lot scandinavian brands, but not alone afaik.

I will check out the contact about a brand "Scan", there also must be a register of brands. Which country (Denmark or Norway) did this brand belong to? I remember f.e. Scan-Line, Scan-whatever.

I have a pair of A-25 branded Dynaco with SEAS Drivers and Vent above. No serial or datasheet on the back, sorry...

I would open them, for recapping or so anyway... but i would open the pair up to check.

at that time Scan-Speak already existed and also had involved into the SEAS Scan-Speak-Dynaco-ScanDyna thing... (were also B&O was involved in a way). It must have been a bit confusing, as I heard, even Scan-Speak bought SEAS Drivers in case of need for their Production of speakers, and in fact the Speakers of SEAS and Scan-Speak are relatives with parents out of the same family.

was this just a different layout but principally same construction or is there a deeper sense behind the position of the vent.? I can't hear a difference.

Ok, but u can tell from 1972. There may have been examples with Scan-Speak drivers already, (both, SEAS AND Scan-Speak, used drivers of the other in case of need for own production, as i’ve been told). But officially there may have been only one, the SEAS, replacement.

Bjorn even told me about a problem, because SEAS delivered large amounts of drivers to Scan-Speak and losing millions cause Scan-Speak was bancruft meanwhile.

My A-25 w/vent above btw have the horned woofers...

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Boar...ost&id=3152

Time is a problem, try to figure out the recalls of some people to make some kind of timetable...

Yes, the cutouts were different...

1.) yes... a lot!

2.) yes..

3.) yes, but there also have been SEAS driven with vent above...

4.) yes

5.) yes

6.) yes

7.) yes, on ebay i've seen most of the variations, sometimes mixed up..

8.) yes, depending on brand of drivers used.

9.) can't tell, never measured this...

10.) 1.5" tweeters and 1" Tweeters in the later and xl Version

11.) 5 Position switch shall be xl version

12.) can't tell

13.) can't devide wood, but my are walnut i guess. all of them.

14.) never seen this.

I also found: Tweeters positioned very close to to woofer, outlines crossing each other or Tweeter a little away.

Helge

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There's a pair with the unusual grille frame on Ebay right now. I've never owned one.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...rksid=p3907.m29

I've never seen a SEAS pair with the port above the tweeter.

Hi there;

Other than the unusual cutout, I have seen these before, only on rare occasion, mind you.

I feel these have the regular Seas drivers, other than this frame cutout.

Here is 3 photos of same.

post-101040-1201062436.jpg

post-101040-1201062450.jpg

post-101040-1201062460.jpg

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  • 1 month later...

I think you're right: basic SEAS Dynaco A-25s with unusual grille frame.

I've had several pair of the early Scanspeak Dynaco A-25s pass through here. I like them.

Here's a weird one. Just sold on EBay for just over $110. They have three hole tweeters, like the early Scanspeaks, and woofers that look almost like the basic SEAS driver. But they look different overall somehow. Are these early American versions?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...A:IT&ih=015

Anyone had or heard a pair like this?

Hi there;

Other than the unusual cutout, I have seen these before, only on rare occasion, mind you.

I feel these have the regular Seas drivers, other than this frame cutout.

Here is 3 photos of same.

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I think you're right: basic SEAS Dynaco A-25s with unusual grille frame.

I've had several pair of the early Scanspeak Dynaco A-25s pass through here. I like them.

Here's a weird one. Just sold on EBay for just over $110. They have three hole tweeters, like the early Scanspeaks, and woofers that look almost like the basic SEAS driver. But they look different overall somehow. Are these early American versions?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...A:IT&ih=015

Anyone had or heard a pair like this?

Hi there;

Sadly these are later made Dynaco speakers manufactured in the USA.

Different woofers, tweeters and their position and knobs than the classic and the XL A-25 speaker system.

The vents are poorly finished on every example that I've ever seen on ebay, compared to the Denmark versions.

I never saw these when new and have never seen them or heard them.

Perhaps an owner or previous owner can write-up a review of them.

These are probably not from the classic Dynaco company but post.

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Hi there;

Sadly these are later made Dynaco speakers manufactured in the USA.

Different woofers, tweeters and their position and knobs than the classic and the XL A-25 speaker system.

The vents are poorly finished on every example that I've ever seen on ebay, compared to the Denmark versions.

I never saw these when new and have never seen them or heard them.

Perhaps an owner or previous owner can write-up a review of them.

These are probably not from the classic Dynaco company but post.

My thoughts exactly. It looks like they still had the pretty cabinets from Denmak, and the back of the crossover board (speaker wore hook up) looks similar, but apparently they lost their relationship with SEAS once they started producing over here. I wonder what these "final" A-25s sounded like. Perhaps we'll get a response from someone who has heard a pair.

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  • 2 months later...

I have a pair of A-25. Vents are above the tweeter, labels say "Scan-Dyna".

Based upon the chronology at the begining of this thread, I do believe I have a pair of "early" A-25.

Scan-Dyna was founding in 1965

A-25 production started in 1969

Seas was founded in 1970

What label would an A-25 made in 1969 carry ? Absent other information, Scan-Dyna would be logical.

I have not opened up the cabinets to get the part numbers of the drivers.

Salient question becomes are only SEAS driver A-25 authentic versions or does the A-25 model include versions made with different drivers, but sold by the factory as "A-25" ?

Many Many companies make changes to the the component parts of product, without changeing the model #. Priority is to ensure that the new parts meet the specs set for the model.

Best,

Ross

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  • 2 weeks later...

For those of you that don't read Danish-a direct translation(it may not be in perfect English,but I hope you get the meaning!):Again a remarkable Scan-Dyna news,Scan-Speak dometweeter with a resonance frequency all the way down to 700Hz.It gives a better transient reproduction and coverage of the sensitive midfrequencies and with less distortion.A totally new HiFi reproduction.Scan-Spaek dome is used in the new Scan-Dyna loudspeakers A-25X and A-45X,improvements on the aperiodic soundsystem with the acoustic system that's made Scan-Dyna loudspeakers worldfamous.

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  • 1 month later...
For those of you that don't read Danish-a direct translation(it may not be in perfect English,but I hope you get the meaning!):Again a remarkable Scan-Dyna news,Scan-Speak dometweeter with a resonance frequency all the way down to 700Hz.It gives a better transient reproduction and coverage of the sensitive midfrequencies and with less distortion.A totally new HiFi reproduction.Scan-Spaek dome is used in the new Scan-Dyna loudspeakers A-25X and A-45X,improvements on the aperiodic soundsystem with the acoustic system that's made Scan-Dyna loudspeakers worldfamous.

Hi

haven't been here long time ;) nice ad! and the A-45 shows up in it ...

The ScanDyna A25 in the Ad has Scanspeak Drivers and the Vent below...

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For those of you that don't read Danish-a direct translation(it may not be in perfect English,but I hope you get the meaning!):Again a remarkable Scan-Dyna news,Scan-Speak dometweeter with a resonance frequency all the way down to 700Hz.It gives a better transient reproduction and coverage of the sensitive midfrequencies and with less distortion.A totally new HiFi reproduction.Scan-Spaek dome is used in the new Scan-Dyna loudspeakers A-25X and A-45X,improvements on the aperiodic soundsystem with the acoustic system that's made Scan-Dyna loudspeakers worldfamous.

Hi Rolf;

Thank you for posting the ad and translating it for us.

Now we have 2 more speakers, A-25X and A-45X, that we know very little or nothing about.

Dyna the word, as used in the Scan/Dyna name or brand, is or is it not Dynaco?

We are getting ever closer to having an actual archival history of production of the original Dynaco A-25 Aperiodic Speaker system.

We do not have an actual archival history of the original A-25 speaker system yet.

David Hafler had something to do with B&O, Scan and Seas prior to the manufacturing and introduction of the famous A-25 speaker system.

Dynaco had a relationship with B&O, prior to the official release of the A-25.

Cartridge ?, tape machine ?, sold under the Dynaco brand name in the U.S. or worldwide?

B&O also used some Seas speaker drivers as well but they were 4 ohm drivers, not the specified 8 ohms of the Dynaco A-25.

Seas, as I have read, or rather, one of their designers at least, designed the A-25 but with 4 ohm drivers.

Someone had to say, we want the vent below the woofer, and why.

This was not mentioned, yet.

It would be nice to have a blueprint copy of the prototype.

Scanspeak or Scan/dyna drivers were the first drivers used in the early A-25's, with the vent above the tweeter.

It would be nice if an engineer was on this site that had worked for Dynaco.

We now have 2 more un-known speaker models which we can only hope more data arrives soon.

Mirror imaged pairs, switch and screwdriver tweeter adjustment on the rear, grille cloth frames with elliptical cutout and wooden frames are a few of the differences.

Also, at least 2, possibly 4 different alnico woofers, with and without horns, and 2 at least and possibly, 3 different alnico tweeters were used during ongoing production, without changing the model's identity.

This is only for the speaker we all call the Dynaco A-25.

If I am feeling better soon, I will take photo's of these different woofers and post those shots.

It makes one appreciate all of the AR information, moreso, that has been accumulated and posted on this site, by the lack of Dynaco's archival data and others at this time.

There is always the hope that other new members will bring with them more bits and pieces to make life interesting.

Vern

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