Questions about the E speakers:

[Guest tinear]

Did the speaker components change from the E to the II and on to the III?

I have read a couple of comments about the III which suggest it may be a tad "bright," does anyone have similar results?

Lastly, any comparisons between the three would be appreciated. Generally, do the three have a "family" sound? I believe Snell died before the III was designed?

[Guest Dake13]

>Did the speaker components change from the E to the II and on

>to the III?

I'm not sure about all the differences but I can tell you the bits that I know. I think the E and the EII are the same size and use the same drivers. However I'm pretty sure the E's port faces the front (EII's faces the back). The EII has a rear firing supertweeter, which many (me included) disconnect, the E does not. I don't know what the crossovers look like, but since there are continual developments even within the II series, they are probably different.

The EIII, as you might know, was a kevin Voecks design. Peter Snell died in '83 and they kept manufacturing the EII for another five years or so. Some say their construction went downhill during this time, I have no idea. The EIII cabinet is definitely a different size (narrower) and I believe it has a pot on the tweeter like the JIII and the KII (other Voecks designs). So theoretically you wouldn't have to worry about it being bright because you could just adjust the dial. A fixed resistor's always going to sound better than a pot, however. The tweeter might be different on the EIII too. They look very similar, but they are effectively different speakers.

Snell's bright? I've heard some people describe them as bright. I don't think so. In my opinion, if someone describes a speaker as bright, you always have to ask them what they used to drive it and what their source was.

[Guest tinear]

Thanks! I wish Voeck would have discontinued E series and begun his own, it's a bit misleading.

I'd guess the way to go would be to find out the serial numeration of early IIs (or the E) and try and locate a matched pair, hoping against hope that no one had monkeyed around with them.

I was very lucky recently and got a fantastic pair of KLH 5s that look and sound as if they'd been kept in very kind storage forever. Who knows? Lightning may strike twice.

Again, thanks for the thoughtful reply.

[Guest descartes]

I was about to ask about EII vs. EIII, as well. Peter at Audio Note (who was very kind to me and didn't try to sell me anything, for what it's worth) told me that he thought the EIII was definitely a step backward from the EII, though the EIII still are good speakers. I bought my EIII new in 1991 for $799 in Champaign, IL. I am playing them right now. I listened to speakers for dozens of hours before buying these (it was down to these or Thiel CS 1.5, and I thought there was something off in the midrange with those speakers, though the CS 2 were wonderful--just out of my price range as a college student spending his high school summer work money). The EIII is ported in the back with a rear-firing tweeter that is adjustable.

So, I am curious as to how much of a "step backward" the EIII was and how exactly they differ. I have toyed with the idea of picking up a pair of EII, or perhaps even a Snell-designed J or K and adding a decent subwoofer, wondering whether there would be enough of a positive difference to make it worth the change.

While I'm at it, another question. I live in LA (I'm a Chicago boy, but find myself here with a tight academic job market), and I'm trying to figure out how to anchor the EIIIs to the stands that were made for them (these are sand-filled, and shaped like a triangle, with two points for the speaker to sit in front and one point in back). The speakers are pretty stable unless there is motion in the direction of 2 or 10 o'clock. Then they are unstable. There are two holes in the stands which could be used to put an additional screw into the bases, though I don't know how this would affect the sound of the speaker. Another option is to have a sort of "crash pad" on either rear corner (I was thinking of an unopened can of tennis balls) that would (hopefully) cause the speaker to spring back to its original position if it rolled.

Thanks, and I really appreciate the discussion.

Matt

Los Angeles, CA

[Guest energyandair]

>I was about to ask about EII vs. EIII, as well. Peter at

>Audio Note (who was very kind to me and didn't try to sell me

>anything, for what it's worth) told me that he thought the

>EIII was definitely a step backward from the EII, though the

>EIII still are good speakers. I bought my EIII new in 1991

>for $799 in Champaign, IL. I am playing them right now. I

>listened to speakers for dozens of hours before buying these

>(it was down to these or Thiel CS 1.5, and I thought there was

>something off in the midrange with those speakers, though the

>CS 2 were wonderful--just out of my price range as a college

>student spending his high school summer work money). The EIII

>is ported in the back with a rear-firing tweeter that is

>adjustable.

>

>So, I am curious as to how much of a "step backward"

>the EIII was and how exactly they differ. I have toyed with

>the idea of picking up a pair of EII, or perhaps even a

>Snell-designed J or K and adding a decent subwoofer, wondering

>whether there would be enough of a positive difference to make

>it worth the change.

>

>While I'm at it, another question. I live in LA (I'm a

>Chicago boy, but find myself here with a tight academic job

>market), and I'm trying to figure out how to anchor the EIIIs

>to the stands that were made for them (these are sand-filled,

>and shaped like a triangle, with two points for the speaker to

>sit in front and one point in back). The speakers are pretty

>stable unless there is motion in the direction of 2 or 10

>o'clock. Then they are unstable. There are two holes in the

>stands which could be used to put an additional screw into the

>bases, though I don't know how this would affect the sound of

>the speaker. Another option is to have a sort of "crash

>pad" on either rear corner (I was thinking of an unopened

>can of tennis balls) that would (hopefully) cause the speaker

>to spring back to its original position if it rolled.

>

>Thanks, and I really appreciate the discussion.

>

>Matt

>Los Angeles, CA

My guess is that the EII and EIII will only sound a little different but I've never had the chance to here an E III. I would wait till I saw one of the original Snell designs at a good price, try it, keep the one I prefer and resell the other if I didn't have a usefor it.

I made a sand filled stand for my E II's and use reuseable adhesive putty (eg Bluetak) in each corner to secure the speakers to the stands. It works really well. You only need about a 5/16" ball in each corner which squashes to a bit over 1" across. More is supposed to be worse. Extra putty in the middle made it less stable.

David

[Guest descartes]

Thanks much for the reply, David.

The issue with the speakers is that the back two corners are unsupported. So they (currently) hang there in midair, waiting for the next moderate-sized quake to topple them. So, it's sort of a vexed problem.

Thanks again,

Matt

[Guest energyandair]

>Thanks much for the reply, David.

>

>The issue with the speakers is that the back two corners are

>unsupported. So they (currently) hang there in midair,

>waiting for the next moderate-sized quake to topple them. So,

>it's sort of a vexed problem.

>

>Thanks again,

>

>Matt

Matt

I think that Bluetak or similar has enough adhesive strength to deal with triangular support. My stands weigh over 30 lb and I can't lift the EIIs off them. If I push on the top of the speaker in any direction, its very solid. If I push hard enough, the speaker and stand tip as one even though the base of the stands extend beyond the speakers by 2"" in all directions. Even with triangular support, I think that you will find the same thing.

David

[Guest Dake13]

>So, I am curious as to how much of a "step backward"

>the EIII was and how exactly they differ. I have toyed with

>the idea of picking up a pair of EII, or perhaps even a

>Snell-designed J or K and adding a decent subwoofer, wondering

>whether there would be enough of a positive difference to make

>it worth the change.

Matt-

I'm pretty sure the 'exact' differences between the EII and the EIII are, the EIII has a narrower cabinet and a pot on the tweeter. I don't know about the xover. If you want to pop it open and take a couple pics, I can compare it to the xover in my EII. It might be a little hard to figure, as each Snell should theoretically have a unique xover (since the values are matched to a specific driver).

From what I've heard, EIII owners seem to like them and often keep them for a long time. Comparing the EII to the EIII? On the one hand, you'd have to be a real Snell geek to own both. On the other, the EII is often ridiculously underpriced on the used market. I think Snell fans are very lucky compared to those shopping for old Spendors, Rogers, Altec, etc., speakers. I've seen EII's with new drivers from Snell go for $150!

Overall, though, the speakers seem too much alike. You might keep an eye out for a JII. These seem the rarest on the used market, and although they use the same drivers as the EII they are effectively different speakers. They're slightly more efficient, and faster, and a bit more aggressive - whether you like them will probably depend on your other components (I'm a tube guy). The xover is a little more complex, with two inductors on the midrange. The K is also a nice little speaker, and a lot of people really like Voecks' KII.

[Guest descartes]

Thanks for the reply, David. I'll go ahead and try that then. Do you put the bluetak rght on the points on which the speakers sit?

Another idea I've been toying around with (and they aren't mutually exclusive--I could do the bluetak and this) is putting some wood blocks, roughly 1/16" lower than the cabinets under the back two corners, so if they tip, they'll be supported. Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think this would work well with the bluetak. If the speaker falls backward and is caught by the block, but twists, it still can come off the stand. The bluetak could help with this.

Great advice--thanks!

Matt

[Guest descartes]

Thanks for this. How expensive/available are the JII crossovers? If I do find a pair, I'd like to know what I'm getting myself into given the more complicated JII crossover.

Matt

[Guest energyandair]

Matt said: "Do you put the bluetak rght on the points on which the

speakers sit?"

In my case, the top plate of the stand is flat and matches the bottom of the speaker so I put the adhesive putty at the corners to maximize stability. The stand walls taper out from the corners of the top plate below the speakers to the corners of the base and the stand base is supported on adjustable screw-in feet (or spikes depending upon the floor). This gives very rigid coupling from speaker to the stand, through the stand and down to the floor.

If I understand your setup correctly, I would put the adhesive putty at each corner of the stand. If the back of the triangular stand extends beyond the speaker, I would put adhesive putty just in from the back of the speaker.

David

[Guest descartes]

Just after you suggested the JII, I found a pair on Ebay for $150. I haven't listened to them next to the EIII, but when I do (it'll be a while), I'll report back.

Matt

[Guest redbullet]

Not sure if I should post this as a reply, But I have a original pair of E's that I just scooped off ebay. Does anyone have a good front picture of these or can tell me what is the original tweeter ? I have a feeling someone may have messed with these, Thanks to all in advance

[Guest Dake13]

>Not sure if I should post this as a reply, But I have a

>original pair of E's that I just scooped off ebay. Does anyone

>have a good front picture of these or can tell me what is the

>original tweeter ? I have a feeling someone may have messed

>with these, Thanks to all in advance.

I don't have original E's, but I thought they used the same Tonegen tweeter as the EII and JII. Your best bet might be to unscrew it, and give Snell a call. Ask for Mark as he knows the product line pretty well.

Good luck,

Dake

[Guest redbullet]

By looking at snells web site I can say the original E's tweeter is not the same as the EII's or III's, I will for sure un-screw it when I get a chance and call them , Here is a pic of them with the felt pulled up, Look right to anyone? :-)

[Guest Dake13]

That might be the right one. That's the same Vifa tweeter that's in the original K. It's # is D19TD-05 and it's still available from Madisound.

d.

[Guest redbullet]

Thanks for the info :-)

[Horswispr]

I don't know how drivers changed in the Snell E, but I had EIIIs for several years. I liked them but never quite fell in love with them. They were not bright, but they were not as warm as I would have liked. I eventually sold them and went back to my old DCM Time Windows.

[Guest descartes]

I now have a pair of EIIs and EIIIs, and can listen to them side by side. I took the bottoms off the EIIs and put the EIIs on 15" stands. I found them to be somewhat shrill, though the midrange had texture that wasn't present in the EIIIs. I then put the EIIs on the Sound Anchor 3" stands I have for the EIIIs. It totally changed the sound. The EIIs still are a bit bright, I think. But the sound no longer is shrill. They do reveal bad CDs in a way the EIIIs don't. The defintely are better speakers than the EIIIs, and they're probably worth the $300 it would take to upgrade to them if you like the EIIIs. The EIIs have newly refoamed drivers (original SEAS), and I'm driving them with a Forte F55 power amp and F44 preamp, along with good TARA interconnects and a Rotel RCD 971 HDCD CD player. I'm waiting to get my phono preamp so I can listen to LPs again on the EIIs. Right now I have socks (literally--I taped them on) over the rear tweeters, and this makes the EIIs smoother and less bright. Bass is more pronounced with the EIIIs, though cleaner with the EIIs. I've been listening to the EIIIs (same pair) since 1991 consistently, so I know them very well (and like them very much).

Feel free to drop me a line if you want any further reports. Soon I hope to add JIIs to the mix and see what happens.

Cheers,

Matt

[Guest energyandair]

>I now have a pair of EIIs and EIIIs, and can listen to them

>side by side. I took the bottoms off the EIIs and put the

>EIIs on 15" stands. I found them to be somewhat shrill,

>though the midrange had texture that wasn't present in the

>EIIIs. I then put the EIIs on the Sound Anchor 3" stands

>I have for the EIIIs. It totally changed the sound. The EIIs

>still are a bit bright, I think. But the sound no longer is

>shrill. They do reveal bad CDs in a way the EIIIs don't. The

>defintely are better speakers than the EIIIs, and they're

>probably worth the $300 it would take to upgrade to them if

>you like the EIIIs. The EIIs have newly refoamed drivers

>(original SEAS), and I'm driving them with a Forte F55 power

>amp and F44 preamp, along with good TARA interconnects and a

>Rotel RCD 971 HDCD CD player. I'm waiting to get my phono

>preamp so I can listen to LPs again on the EIIs. Right now I

>have socks (literally--I taped them on) over the rear

>tweeters, and this makes the EIIs smoother and less bright.

>Bass is more pronounced with the EIIIs, though cleaner with

>the EIIs. I've been listening to the EIIIs (same pair) since

>1991 consistently, so I know them very well (and like them

>very much).

>

>Feel free to drop me a line if you want any further reports.

>Soon I hope to add JIIs to the mix and see what happens.

>

>Cheers,

>

>Matt

Thanks for the comparison between the E II and E III.

I've never heard E III's but I was interested that you heard such a difference compared to the E II's. Did the setting of E III's tweeter level adjustment affect this noticeably?

I've also noticed that my E II's give more detail than most older speakers. When I check the sound level (with an RS meter and a CD that gives a pink noise source in 1/3 octave bands), my E II's seem to measure pretty flat. Many older speakers seem to be rolled off and some newer ones seem to have a peak in the upper bands.

Are you able to try the E II's on a solid stand about 11" high? That's what Audio Note concluded was best and that's what I'm using. Its a lot better than the standard 2.5" E II base, but I've never E II's at other heights.

I also look forward to hearing your thoughts on the J II.

David

[Guest descartes]

Thanks for the comparison between the E II and E III.

I've never heard E III's but I was interested that you heard such a difference compared to the E II's. Did the setting of E III's tweeter level adjustment affect this noticeably?

I've also noticed that my E II's give more detail than most older speakers. When I check the sound level (with an RS meter and a CD that gives a pink noise source in 1/3 octave bands), my E II's seem to measure pretty flat. Many older speakers seem to be rolled off and some newer ones seem to have a peak in the upper bands.

Are you able to try the E II's on a solid stand about 11" high? That's what Audio Note concluded was best and that's what I'm using. Its a lot better than the standard 2.5" E II base, but I've never E II's at other heights.

I also look forward to hearing your thoughts on the J II.

David

Hi David,

I've played with the tweeter level on the EIIIs and had them set at roughly what is labeled the "optimal" setting. I didn't try adjusting the EIII tweeter level and comparing that to the EIIs. But I will the next time I listen to them side-by-side. Overall, I'd say that they are similar sounding speakers. Or, maybe I'd say this: Most people would say that they are similar-sounding. But after listening to the EIIIs daily for 15 years, I certainly heard a difference. As I listen further, there still is a bit of brightness with some CDs. But I think this is just the fact that the EIIs are revealing of flaws in somewhat the way Thiels are. I find the brightness is diminished with LPs and haven't heard a LP which I thought sounded bright.

I've also noticed again that the EIIs don't produce as much bass as do the EIIIs, and the bass that is produced is a bit tighter (though the EIIIs never were boomy or anything like that). This is fine for me. I don't feel as though recordings are diminished, and I'm in an apartment and don't like bothering my neighbors. I haven't tried putting them on 10" stands. I saw that Audio Note recommends the 10" stands, and as a result probably will get some and try them. I mentioned my experience to Peter Q at AN, and he didn't say anything negative about the use of the shorter 4" Sound Anchor stands, for whatever that's worth. If I were to put the EIIs on 10" stands, the tweeters would be right at ear level. So I can see why that would be a good height for the speakers.

Another difference I noted was that the base on the EIIIs is pretty high-quality. It's solid wood, and removing it and putting the speakers directly on the stands didn't change the sound much. The bases on the EIIs are quasi-rickety by comparison. For those who haven't seen them, they're 2" high or so, and are 1/2" wide or so, and are open in the middle. The EII bases almost asked to be removed to put the speaker directly on the stands.

I still suspect that much of the difference in sound is from the drivers in the two speakers (the EIIs have the SEAS drivers). But I don't know this for sure.

Anyway, I'm having fun messing around with the various Snells. I'll report in with the JIIs when I get them set up.

Cheers,

Matt

Los Angeles

[Guest pepperdog]

I'm enjoying the discussion on the differences in different series of E's vs J's etc. I happen to be a vintage Snell and vintage Infinity collector and have 10 pairs of Snells from type E series II, EIII, EIV, to type J series II, JIII, and type K series II, KIII, and I was able to buy most of the remaining stock of original 8"woofers and x-overs from Snell a few years back (late 90's) before they discontinued original woofer sales.

I don't know what they are pawning off as replacement drivers these days.

I also bought several pairs of original tweeters w/ x-overs for my J's and E's.

I was curious about the discussion about the triangle shaped stands for the type E series speakers since I have the factory produced stands for the EIII's and they are square. They were optional for the type E series III speakers. As I mentioned they are square box stands that have 4 threaded holes with screw in metal collars drilled in the bottom for the threaded spikes.

The EIII speakers sit down inside on a lip about 1/4 inch wide. They are dead stable (square, sand filled, & spiked) and they match the outer dimensions of the EIII exactly. You simply remove the spikes from the speakers, screw the spikes into the bottom of the sand filled stands, measure the amount of sand or lead shot and sand to your taste, then set the speakers down into the boxes resting on the lip that runs around the inner top part of the stand. When the speaker and the stand are joined together it looks like they were made to be together. The design is absolutely seamless and fits the outer dimension of the speakers flush. They also add height and elegance to the speaker. Keep in mind that the EIII's are different in size than the II's and the IV's (which use a metal dome tweeter) and just don't sound as good as the silk dome of the EIII.

The stands raise the speakers up about 11" and you can tune the resonant frequency and bass response of the EIII's by adding or removing sand. The bass response when the EIII's are sitting in the sand filled bases is amazing. So, for that matter, is the dispersion, soundstage, and imaging. The speakers also smooth out dramatically since the tweeter is just above the horizontal plane of your ears when seated.

This placement is ideal according to Kevin... who designed them. I have never seen a set of the square factory supplied floor stands for sale, and other than mine I've not heard from anyone else who has them.

They were a $150 option on top of the price of the speakers and a lot of people probably passed on buying them. A big mistake in my opinion. The difference with the stands vs with out is the difference between an average speaker and a really smooth full range speaker.

The stands would be super simple to make, and I've even got the original paperwork / manual for the stands that have a measured drawing included! I'll take some pictures of the stands with the speakers in them and some by themselves.

E-mail me at gdn1@sbcglobal.net if you'd like to see what they look like.

IMHO I think the JII's and the EIII's are the best sounding of all the smaller "type * series***" speakers...except for the type A's of course. This is of course when the type E series III are in their stands, and the J's are mounted on Sound Anchor stands at the correct height.

I am a Thiel, Proac, and Dynaudio collector as well...but when I listen to music, only Magneplanars with Mye stands will do in my main system.

George

[Guest gucci]

By looking at snells web site I can say the original E's tweeter is not the same as the EII's or III's, I will for sure un-screw it when I get a chance and call them , Here is a pic of them with the felt pulled up, Look right to anyone? :-)

That's not an original Snell-E tweeter (it is the model used on the E-II rear tweeter). The Original E and E-II use Tongen/Foster Tweeters on the front (the silk dome has a brownish coloration to it). The rear speaker on E-II is one of the few speakers that "fits" the mounting hole for the front tweeter (there are only two other tweeters that I know of that will fit the mountiing hole - the ones from Audio Note and one from Morel). Someone has definately "messed" with this original E.

[Guest stackowax]

I'm not sure why there is so little publicly available information on Snell's speakers but most of the information being asked here can be had by emailing Snell. The Snell EIII and EII are different not only in size but in the drivers they use. Early EIIs use a different rear-firing and front-firing tweeter than later EIIs. Some Snell owners who blew their tweeters may have been able to replace them with the original version but at some point Snell ran out of stock and begain using a different tweeter for both repairs and new production. All of this makes comparing EIIs and EIIIs rather difficult since it depends upon which EIIs you are using (and I would not be surprised if there were different iterations of EIIIs as well). Further complicating matters is that Snell routinely used electrolytics in certain places in the xovers which, twenty plus years later, cannot be functioning as the did originally.

Anyway, here's the original driver configuraton of the EIIs (according to Snell):

Front Tweeter: Culver S-90662

Rear Tweeter: Oaktron CDHFI

Woofer: Vifa M21WN07-04

During the production of the EII, the front tweeter was the Culver. Around 1993 (after the EII had stopped being produced), Snell ran out of Culvers. This meant that EII owners who needed new tweeters were supplied with a kit containing the Vifa/Peerless D19TD05-06 and the appropriate xover components. Among other things, the revised xover removed the large adjustable resistor from the circuit. The resistor should either have wire bypassing it or should not have any wire connected to it and have the wire from the input going directly to the capacitors.

The rear tweeter was changed during the production of the EII, i.e., not all EIIs came from the factory with the same rear tweeter. Both are "originals" in the sense that they were produced by Snell but a change was made mid-production. The EII began its life with the Oaktron CDHFI as a rear tweeter but this was changed in 1985 to the Vifa/Peerless D19TD05-08. This change began with serial number 18,001.

I have no idea whether the new replacement tweeter/xover was an improvement over the original or not.

The woofer never changed throughout the production of the EII. The woofer is no longer in production and I'm reasonably sure the replacements Snell provides today are a different woofer altogether.

I know less about the EIII. I suspect all the drivers are different, but they might share the same woofer. I know the front tweeter of the EIII uses a tweeter that differs from both the original and replacement versions of the EII. It is the Vifa D26TG05-06