New VS Old Woofer

[Guest speedracer]

Hey guys, I have a set of AR-3a's, one has a NOS woofer installed 8/07, the "old" one has such a deeper/boomier(?) bass/bottom, the "new" one is about half of that. I did switch the speaker wires from L to R and back again, and that "old" just over powers the other, looking at the 2, the "old" has more movement than the "new". Will the "new" ever loosen/catch-up to the "old" ? Thankss, M.....

[Guest treblehit]

Without part numbers off of the speakers it would be the grossest of stabs in the dark.

Have you the numbers?

[Guest speedracer]

tell me what #'s and where to find them.

[soundminded]

>Hey guys, I have a set of AR-3a's, one has a NOS woofer

>installed 8/07, the "old" one has such a

>deeper/boomier(?) bass/bottom, the "new" one is

>about half of that. I did switch the speaker wires from L to R

>and back again, and that "old" just over powers the

>other, looking at the 2, the "old" has more movement

>than the "new". Will the "new" ever

>loosen/catch-up to the "old" ? Thankss, M.....

Will the "new" ever loosen/catch up to the "old"?

IMO the answer is no. I have no data, no measurements, just anecdotal memories of many decades ago. I think on paper according to the "measurements" those in the know will tell you it's the same but I recall the original AR3 cloth surround woofer being deeper, clearer, and with less distortion. I didn't want to be the first to say it because I am certain there could be a big argument about it but I don't remember anything ever sounding like those cloth woofers. IMO the cloth woofers were more compliant, truer to the acoustic suspension principle, and the system probably had a lower f3. Just a guess and just based on ancient memories of apples versus oranges. I'm not sure even my AR9s are their equal in that regard. No way for me to ever find out either.

[Guest speedracer]

"Old" one is not cloth, looks like foam (?)

[johnieo]

Hello:

RE: foam-surround 12-in. woofers: The first of the foam series was the most compliant of the foam-surround woofers. Later generations were built with increasingly stiffer suspensions to handle higher dB levels. I would imagine the difference between earliest and latest would be obvious in an unmatched pair.

Cheers,

[Guest speedracer]

well, not knowing the age of either woofer surround, I guess one is new style, the other old style like you suggest. Should I replace both and start over ?

[Guest treblehit]

The numbers in question are typically on stickers on the basket on the back of the driver.

If *you* know for a fact that the woofer which will not play low frequencies was *purchased* from a parts supplier in 2007 (or, in fact, anytime after the mid-to-late 1980s), the woofer you have resembles the original very-little. It is of a convenient shape to fit the hole, it is 4ohms, but other than those things it really is not a suitable replacement **despite** being the "official" replacement. It is the *only* replacement. That makes it a "genuine" part, but not a NOS part.

BUT BUT BUT - there is another possible explanation for your plight.

To avoid a lot of confusing "going around the world to get there" it would be good to know the numbers on those stickers on the back of your woofers. If, for some reason, there are no stickers and numbers, then a posted photo would help.

BTW - if you are curious, by using the search function on the forum you can find thread after thread after thread about the similarities and differences of the various "versions" of the AR 12" woofer.

You are not the first to pass this way.

Bret (a fellow traveler)

[Guest speedracer]

>The numbers in question are typically on stickers on the

>basket on the back of the driver.

>

>If *you* know for a fact that the woofer which will not play

>low frequencies was *purchased* from a parts supplier in 2007

>(or, in fact, anytime after the mid-to-late 1980s), the woofer

>you have resembles the original very-little. It is of a

>convenient shape to fit the hole, it is 4ohms, but other than

>those things it really is not a suitable replacement

>**despite** being the "official" replacement. It

>is the *only* replacement. That makes it a

>"genuine" part, but not a NOS part.

>

>BUT BUT BUT - there is another possible explanation for your

>plight.

>

>To avoid a lot of confusing "going around the world to

>get there" it would be good to know the numbers on those

>stickers on the back of your woofers. If, for some reason,

>there are no stickers and numbers, then a posted photo would

>help.

>

>BTW - if you are curious, by using the search function on the

>forum you can find thread after thread after thread about the

>similarities and differences of the various

>"versions" of the AR 12" woofer.

>

>You are not the first to pass this way.

>

>Bret (a fellow traveler)

I'll open up the speaker and take a look, BTW, I have the original AR box it came in also. Stay Tuned !

[Guest speedracer]

I was told to switch the the woofers between speakers to see if it's something in the cabinet also. (crossover perhaps?)

[johnieo]

Hello again:

My suspicion is that you have mismatched woofers - perhaps a Tonegen replacement and an earlier generation AR orginal. If your "stiff" woofer has a serial no. beginning with 121 then it is a Tonegen replacement. But as mentioned, you will need to open the cabinets and check part numbers. The difference in part numbers alone may (or may not) tell the whole story.

It is also possible that you may have an early and late AR-3a cabinet "pair." Cabinet serial no's. less than ~38,200 used a #7 woofer inductor with 28-30 oz of stuffing and were shipped with an Alnico cloth surround woofer. Cabinet serial no's. greater than about 38,500 used a #9 woofer inductor and 20 oz. of stuffing and were shipped with one of about three versions of the foam surround woofer. If you have a low serial number cabinet and a foam-surround woofer, then the woofer has been replaced, but were the coil and stuffing quantity? When purchasing speakers with unknown pedegree, it is useful to "operate" and see what lies within.

If the only difference is that one has a new Tonegen replacement, you might try reducing its stuffing quantity and see if the bass improves.

Please let us know what you find.

Cheers,

[Guest speedracer]

Here we go. Cab.#1-Ser.#54373(old Woofer), Cab.#2-Ser.#54465(NOSreplacement) sticker w/#200003, switched woofer 1&2, same result, NOS less bottom/bass. And at this piont who knows what part(s) are originals ? here's a pic, NOS on left.

[johnieo]

Hello Speedracer:

The driver on the right is the first-generation AR foam-surround woofer manufactured from 1969 through 1972; it is identified by its long pigtail leads and Masonite spacer visible at the edge. (By 2007 it too would have been re-foamed.) Cabinet serial numbers 54,000 -55,xxx were manufactured in mid 1971. So the driver on the right is original. Both cabinets should have #9 woofer inductors and 20-oz of fiberglass damping. Originals of that date would have used front-wired mid- and hi-range drivers.

The woofer on the left looks like the 1978 version made in USA by AR and designed for speakers like the AR-11(, AR-9. (Your image seems to show the black felt in the bolt circle.) By the time it was replaced, that driver version was probably the only one available. Likely it has been refoamed as well. It is stiffer than the first generation woofer. I do know that the AR-11 used 10-oz of trilobal polyester stuffing, so it would definitely be overdamped with that much fiberlass in an AR-3a. One might tinker with some "Fiberloft" made by Leggett sold in Joann Fabric stores- a bag is five bucks; see if it improves the bass; however the overall balance would never be identical to the early if you did that.

The best solution is to exchange your 1978 version for an early long-pigtail version. Perhaps you might contact one of the restoration folks on this site?

Please don't give up; these are nice speakers--worth the added effort.

Cheers,

John

[Guest speedracer]

I guess I should repair the "original" woofer that came out of this AR-3a, and who should do this ?

[Guest speedracer]

>Hello Speedracer:

>

>The driver on the right is the first-generation AR

>foam-surround woofer manufactured from 1969 through 1972; it

>is identified by its long pigtail leads and Masonite spacer

>visible at the edge. (By 2007 it too would have been

>re-foamed.) Cabinet serial numbers 54,000 -55,xxx were

>manufactured in mid 1971. So the driver on the right is

>original. Both cabinets should have #9 woofer inductors and

>20-oz of fiberglass damping. Originals of that date would have

>used front-wired mid- and hi-range drivers.

>

>The woofer on the left looks like the 1978 version made in USA

>by AR and designed for speakers like the AR-11(, AR-9. (Your

>image seems to show the black felt in the bolt circle.) By the

>time it was replaced, that driver version was probably the

>only one available. Likely it has been refoamed as well. It is

>stiffer than the first generation woofer. I do know that the

>AR-11 used 10-oz of trilobal polyester stuffing, so it would

>definitely be overdamped with that much fiberlass in an AR-3a.

>One might tinker with some "Fiberloft" made by

>Leggett sold in Joann Fabric stores- a bag is five bucks; see

>if it improves the bass; however the overall balance would

>never be identical to the early if you did that.

>

>The best solution is to exchange your 1978 version for an

>early long-pigtail version. Perhaps you might contact one of

>the restoration folks on this site?

>

>Please don't give up; these are nice speakers--worth the added

>effort.

>

>Cheers,

>John

[Guest speedracer]

>>Hello Speedracer:

>>

>>The driver on the right is the first-generation AR

>>foam-surround woofer manufactured from 1969 through 1972;

>it

>>is identified by its long pigtail leads and Masonite

>spacer

>>visible at the edge. (By 2007 it too would have been

>>re-foamed.) Cabinet serial numbers 54,000 -55,xxx were

>>manufactured in mid 1971. So the driver on the right is

>>original. Both cabinets should have #9 woofer inductors

>and

>>20-oz of fiberglass damping. Originals of that date would

>have

>>used front-wired mid- and hi-range drivers.

>>

>>The woofer on the left looks like the 1978 version made in

>USA

>>by AR and designed for speakers like the AR-11(, AR-9.

>(Your

>>image seems to show the black felt in the bolt circle.) By

>the

>>time it was replaced, that driver version was probably

>the

>>only one available. Likely it has been refoamed as well.

>It is

>>stiffer than the first generation woofer. I do know that

>the

>>AR-11 used 10-oz of trilobal polyester stuffing, so it

>would

>>definitely be overdamped with that much fiberlass in an

>AR-3a.

>>One might tinker with some "Fiberloft" made by

>>Leggett sold in Joann Fabric stores- a bag is five bucks;

>see

>>if it improves the bass; however the overall balance

>would

>>never be identical to the early if you did that.

>>

>>The best solution is to exchange your 1978 version for an

>>early long-pigtail version. Perhaps you might contact one

>of

>>the restoration folks on this site?

>>

>>Please don't give up; these are nice speakers--worth the

>added

>>effort.

>>

>>Cheers,

>>John

>

I have the "original" one, who should repair it ?

[Carlspeak]

Speedracer wrote: "I have the "original" one, who should repair it ?"

I do refoaming and reconing of 3a woofers. What do you mean by 'original' one in your question above? Is it the one you replaced with the newer, poorer performing one circa 1978?

It's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

[Guest speedracer]

>Speedracer wrote: "I have the "original" one,

>who should repair it ?"

>

>I do refoaming and reconing of 3a woofers. What do you mean by

>'original' one in your question above? Is it the one you

>replaced with the newer, poorer performing one circa 1978?

>

>

>It's all about the music

>

>Carl

>Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

yes, that is correct.

[Guest treblehit]

If you mean you have the original-original driver, with the brown ring, in addition to the two you have pictured; then my all means have the other original repaired. In addition to Carl's solicitation, if you will search "Millersound" you'll find another fine option of someone to replace the foam. There are others. There is more to replacing the foam than just gluing new foam on, and a pro can tell you if you are wasting your time and money on a bad driver.

The driver on the left absolutely is a "service replacement" unit that, as far as I know, was never in any AR speaker when it left the factory.

Whether it is or isn't doesn't matter as far as you are concerned.

That driver on the left, or even the closest thing that was originally used in the AR-9, will not go as low as your older drivers (with the brown rings) in an AR-3a cabinet unless someone has "fixed" it; in which case you really don't know what you have left and the woofer becomes suspect.

A photo of the BACK of the drivers would be helpful to pin it down exactly, but wouldn't change the advice you will receive here. If you've got the time and like having fun with a digital camera, we'll take a look. If not, okay. It won't change anything.

It looks to me like the dust cap (center bump) has been replaced on the left-hand driver (but don't swear that) as well as the surrounds on both speakers, at the same time with the same foam.

I have another thing to ask of you. I have a suspicion. The driver on the left, the newer one, please examine it closely. As you follow the *back* of the cone toward the magnet you will find a corrugated ring of material, parallel to the big foam ring, holding the little end of the cone centered. This will be glued inside the metal basket down low. This is called a spider and is just as much a part of the cone's suspension as the big grey foam ring.

If you hold that woofer on its side (so gravity is **not** pulling "back" on the cone) and examine the spider - it should be flat. It should not be sunken or raised. Would you tell me if that spider is sunken when gravity is not pulling on the cone, please?

Regardless of that sag, or not, the bottom-line is that you will never make these two drivers sound alike. The masonite ringed drivers are the ones you want to use.

[Guest speedracer]

No, by original I mean the the I took out and replaced with the "new" so I have another one like the one on the right.

[Guest speedracer]

forgot to add this, the "old" ones do have a masonite ring under the foam surrounds (is that what you meant?) To repair the other "old" bad one, it needs: voice coil & spyder & surround. cone & frame good. Miller sound says to find a working replacement and not to repair this.

[Guest treblehit]

>Miller sound says to find a working replacement and not to repair this.<

Sage advice.

I didn't know how bad off the non-working old one was - sorry if it got lost on me somewhere in an old post.

I wish I had an old one laying around to offer you, but I don't.

Yes, you want two like the one with the masonite ring if you can find them. If not, get two Alnicos, if not, get two "pre-1978s." (black basket)

By the way, now with a rear-shot, it looks as though the "newer" one that won't go as low **was** an original AR driver, after-all. This looks for all the world like a late-model from an AR-9 / 91, but might have been in an AR-10pi or AR-11 after 1977. My confusion is the black trim foam on the front of that woofer. Earlier versions had a different "decorative trim" than yours does for the AR-9 (circa '78). The 10pi / 11s were originally painted black like your older one and were different in other more subtle ways.

And I immediately thought "MillerSound" when I saw the deadening that was applied to the baskets (the "lead" tape). He did that to a few for me.

You can reasonably use the woofers from 3a's, early 11s, early 10pi's, and with a little help from your friends, even AR-3s, and maybe even a pair of AR-1s. Replacing both woofers to the earliest cloth surround version is a possibility (AR-1 and 3), but I'm no expert on how-best to do that. Fortunately, you have at least a couple of people here who have recently done just exactly that.

Or you could just use what you've got until you find what you need on eBay. That's what I'd do, I'm afraid.

If that newer one is a Millersound re-surrounded woofer, I would be interested in purchasing it from you once you get what you need to replace it. You might just break even on this deal and get what you need, too. I have one of those that was "experimented on" and so need a single replacement.

Hoorah!

It all might work-out for you yet.

[Guest speedracer]

Well, I've now have 2 masonite type woofers , still having the same problem, speaker #1 graet soundind bottom/fullness, #2 with replacement woofer has zip !!! suggestions ???

[johnieo]

Well, I've now have 2 masonite type woofers , still having the same problem, speaker #1 graet soundind bottom/fullness, #2 with replacement woofer has zip !!! suggestions ???

Hi Speedracer:

So you have more than one problem. Given everything else working properly, you would have noticed the difference in the mis-matched woofer's bass response, so effort to date is not in vain. Now what. The problem remaining may or may not be related to the speaker.

1.) Have you switched speakers/amplifer output terminals? Put left speaker in right amp channel and vice versa? Even flipped cables? Assume nothing!

If the problem now appears in the other speaker cabinet, when changing amplifier connections, then the problem is not within the speaker.

2.) If not speaker problem-

try switching left/right cables between music source and preamp.

try switching left/rght cables between preamp and amp.

If problem flips, then you have a problem in one channel of your amp or preamp; perhaps a coupling or feedback capacitor has gone south.

Did you check for dumb things like we all do? If your amp has individual bass tone controls, are they set the same, :-) I've done stupider things.

3. If the problem remained with the same speaker cabinet when it was connected to the other amplifier channel (with preamp switched back and forth also), then something is rotten in the speaker circuitry - something wrong with the crossover wiring or a crossover component. Do you have the crossover wiring diagram? Can you pull the two woofers and trace the wiring from #2 input terminal through the #9 inductor to the + (red) terminal on the woofer? Then from - terminal on woofer back to #1 speaker terminal? Is the 150-uF capactitor connected directly across the +/- woofer terminals -- one lead to + and other to - ? Both cabinets should be wired identically, and have same amounts of stuffing. The problem with old speakers is that we do not know who has been playing inside during the last thirty-five years and what kind of "footprints" they have left behind. Footprints such as wiring the woofer capacitor in series with the driver :-)

Cheers and let us know,

[Guest speedracer]

Hi Speedracer:

So you have more than one problem. Given everything else working properly, you would have noticed the difference in the mis-matched woofer's bass response, so effort to date is not in vain. Now what. The problem remaining may or may not be related to the speaker.

1.) Have you switched speakers/amplifer output terminals? Put left speaker in right amp channel and vice versa? Even flipped cables? Assume nothing!

If the problem now appears in the other speaker cabinet, when changing amplifier connections, then the problem is not within the speaker.

2.) If not speaker problem-

try switching left/right cables between music source and preamp.

try switching left/rght cables between preamp and amp.

If problem flips, then you have a problem in one channel of your amp or preamp; perhaps a coupling or feedback capacitor has gone south.

Did you check for dumb things like we all do? If your amp has individual bass tone controls, are they set the same, :-) I've done stupider things.

3. If the problem remained with the same speaker cabinet when it was connected to the other amplifier channel (with preamp switched back and forth also), then something is rotten in the speaker circuitry - something wrong with the crossover wiring or a crossover component. Do you have the crossover wiring diagram? Can you pull the two woofers and trace the wiring from #2 input terminal through the #9 inductor to the + (red) terminal on the woofer? Then from - terminal on woofer back to #1 speaker terminal? Is the 150-uF capactitor connected directly across the +/- woofer terminals -- one lead to + and other to - ? Both cabinets should be wired identically, and have same amounts of stuffing. The problem with old speakers is that we do not know who has been playing inside during the last thirty-five years and what kind of "footprints" they have left behind. Footprints such as wiring the woofer capacitor in series with the driver :-)

Cheers and let us know,

I can open up the 2 speakers and look to see if they are wired the same, as far as "imputs term. though inductors etc." not a clue what all that means.