Guest linedrive Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 This ad is from the May, 1960 issue of "Audio" magazine:http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/1526.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eunomians Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 Wow, great post! This should go in the reference library. I never knew that these systems existed.Wish I didn't sell my AR2 on the ultra rare chance of spotting one of these. Oh well. Best regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlspeak Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 >This ad is from the May, 1960 issue of "Audio">magazine:>>>http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/1526.jpg>Great post. I also agree this sould go into the library. Perhaps Tom Tyson could weigh in on this one with the some info - like units produced and components used. I suspect when AR realized they had significantly improved the drivers used the AR3a over their eaerlier models, their marketing department saw an opportunity for increasing sales by introducing these units. I'd be very surprised if they used anything different that standard AR3a tweeters and mids and xover.Remember, it's all about the musicCarlCarl's Custom Loudspeakers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dynaco_dan Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 Hi Carl;TomT will wade in here I am sure, but until he does, I will tell a little bit about these cute little speaker add-ons.The AR-3T (1958 - 1962) uses the AR-3, not AR-3A, tweeter, also called super-tweeter, and midrange drivers and is completely self-contained, with its own crossover and level controls.My best guess is, this was the add-ons for those that maybe bought AR-1W's earlier, and were using alternate tweeters and mids, such as Janszen 1-30 Electrostatic Arrays.The AR-1 may not have had all that the owners were wanting and here was an alternative mid and high end.The AR-3st (1958 - 1962) is the tweeter or also referred to as super tweeter, driver only, complete with crossover cap and pot.By changing the jumper connection, can be used either as, a 4 or 8 ohm tweeter only, or super tweeter, as they used to refer to it.I have followed several auctions with these on them over the last few years.I have been skunked with only the empty cabinets even.My thanks to the poster who sent the photo here and downloaded it.In the library, the AR Chronological order list is not 100% totally correct.I have been re-doing the list slightly and updating it as well, including a fuse size column, in a Excel spreadsheet.For example: these two speakers are not complete as they are written, and several other models are missing, unless I need new glases again. lol.When I have, what I consider to be a worthwhile posting, I will email a copy to TomT and a few other members to approve it, then maybe we can update the copy in the library later.It will then be a small downloadable Excel file, unless it should be a PDF file for protection.Question of the day, Carl, have you ever touched or serviced one of these speakers in your past?Does anyone, other than TomT, own a pair or one of these?Heavens to Betsy, is anyone stacking these. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charger3834 Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 Good Work Vern, the library needs more correct info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dynaco_dan Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 >Good Work Vern, the library needs more correct info. Thanks Brad;I've read your excellent AR-2 series write-up several times, as AR-2's are now becoming part of my hifi museum, as I write.In Dec 2005, I wrote a request for the original computer files, but they are not available.Ken Kantor replied that they were not available as editable files.As you can see in the library, a zip file with 4 separate pages can be downloaded.There is a lot of wonderful information to say the least, and a lot of work, but, I see that there is some blanks for some of the classics.Also there is at least 1/2 dozen classics missing entirely, and over a dozen variations alone missing.Plus Heathkit/AR models as a separate listing at the end.Perhaps Cello, which I really know almost nothing about, should be included, as they also used AR-3A/AR-LST drivers.The AR-2AX just for one example, had two different tweeters, and 2 different woofers, cloth versus foam, that I know of.Crossover variations should be noted as well.A fusing column is most appropriate here as well.It probably doesn't matter to most people, but if you have an early AR-2AX, or a later set, but I am certain you would want to have a matching set of drivers.Likewise AR-2AX's, AR-3A's, AR-LST's and MST's.There was a Mark 1 and Mark 2 of AR-MST's, which is totally missing from the list.Even the AR-3A's had Mark 1 and Mark 2, different woofers, cloth versus foam.As I typed this, another brainstorm just came to me, yeh, sure Vern, perhaps a serial number range as well.That would need the help and input of many members.While some of this may seem petty, this website appears to be the worlds best source of AR data on the net, so it may as well be as accurate as is possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loudbuff Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 I have an AR-3st and can post some pictures if there is interest (inside and outside). It has a simple filter, a cap to protect the tweeter and a coil (unmarked) to roll off the speaker used for the bass/midrange (an AR-1 in my case).Sounds great and while I'm very happy with the sound of the AR-1 alone, this tweeter works wonders for dispersion!Loudbuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tysontom Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 >>Perhaps Tom Tyson could weigh in on this one with the some>info - like units produced and components used. >>I suspect when AR realized they had significantly improved the>drivers used the AR3a over their eaerlier models, their>marketing department saw an opportunity for increasing sales>by introducing these units. I'd be very surprised if they used>anything different that standard AR3a tweeters and mids and>xover.>The AR-3t and AR-3st ad tells most of the story. AR's literature (see attachment) was actually nearly identical to the ad, so there's not much new in that respect. After the AR-1 was introduced, many music lovers wanted better high-frequency reproduction, and many began to link the Neshaminy Janszen Model 130 electrostatic tweeter to AR-1s and AR-1Ws. By 1960, AR was producing the tweeter-only and super-tweeter-only versions of the AR-3 that could be used to add to the AR-1 or the AR-2 (AR-3st only) in lieu of the relatively expensive Janszen electrostatic tweeter. Since the AR-3 domes had superior off-axis performance and were capable of nearly electrostatic-like transient performance anyway, their performance improved the AR-1 over that of an AR-1/Janszen combination. Sales of the Janszen electrostatic 130 dropped after the AR-3t/st introduction, and Arthur Janszen then decided to build his own woofer for the 130 electrostatic tweeter. This full-range system was quite good, but inferior to the AR-3 in bass response and overall power response. It eventually faded away from the market. Quite frankly, nothing could equal the AR-3 during the late-50s, early 60s period.http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/1527.jpgAR-3t/AR-3st brochurehttp://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/1528.jpgAR-3t shown in center-aboveThe crossovers and drivers for the AR-3t and AR-3st were derived completely from the high-frequency section of an AR-3, and the parts were interchangeable. The AR-3t was the "tweeter," meaning the 2-inch midrange and 1-3/8-inch tweeter drivers; the AR-3st was the "supertweeter," meaning the 1-3/8-inch tweeter assembly. Originally, during AR-3 development, the speaker was to be a 2-way design with the 2-inch dome serving as the high-frequency section, but on- and off-axis performance above 10 kHz was not adequate, so the smaller dome was used to enhance the performance at high frequencies, and it became known as the "supertweeter." Hence the 7500 Hz crossover.--Tom Tyson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dynaco_dan Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 >I have an AR-3st and can post some pictures if there is>interest (inside and outside). It has a simple filter, a cap>to protect the tweeter and a coil (unmarked) to roll off the>speaker used for the bass/midrange (an AR-1 in my case).>>Sounds great and while I'm very happy with the sound of the>AR-1 alone, this tweeter works wonders for dispersion!>>Loudbuff>>Hi Anders;Thank you very much for responding.It would be very much appreciated, if you would please download some photos, thank you.I read that you only have one, and also only one, AR-1 speaker, as well, is this correct?Are you listening in mono?Do you have an AR-3 or other speaker, for the other channel?Please do not do anything, that may endanger the speaker driver or enclosure, for the photos.These were in limited supply and it is nice that an owner would be on this site and willing to take quality detailed photos.As a side note, would you like to comment on what improvements there are overall with high energy music with the AR-3st?Would you also please tell us what happens to the music, when you revert to just the standard AR-1 speaker system by itself, please.Would you have the original owners manual, by chance, to scan and download?I am always willing and very happy to babysit any or all AR speakers, while the homeowners are on holidays. lolThank you again, Anders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve F Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 You always learn something new on these pages!Now, I've known Tom for about 10 or 11 years now. We have corresponded in delightfully excruciating detail about all manner of things AR, from its history, to marketing/sales issues, to the people who've worked there, to product details, to everything else you can imagine.We've learned a lot from each other and our correspondence--both via the Forum and between the two of us privately--has been a source of pure enjoyment for us. He's a fine man, and I'm proud to call him my friend.But I never knew this:"Originally, during AR-3 development, the speaker was to be a 2-way design with the 2-inch dome serving as the high-frequency section, but on- and off-axis performance above 10 kHz was not adequate, so the smaller dome was used to enhance the performance at high frequencies, and it became known as the "supertweeter."The AR-3 was intended to be a 2-way speaker--how about that! I pride myself at knowing just about as much as anyone about the developmental history and chronology of AR products--and I never knew this!Thanks, Tom. Absolutely fascinating.We all owe you one.Steve F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dynaco_dan Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 Hi there;TomT is the main man, thank you Tom.It must be nice to have what appears to be, all of the classic AR speakers under one roof.Thank you, Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eunomians Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 Very impressive info, folks. History in the making IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlspeak Posted August 29, 2006 Report Share Posted August 29, 2006 >Hi Carl;>>TomT will wade in here I am sure, but until he does, I will>tell a little bit about these cute little speaker add-ons.>>The AR-3T (1958 - 1962) uses the AR-3, not AR-3A, tweeter,>also called super-tweeter, and midrange drivers and is>completely self-contained, with its own crossover and level>controls.>>My best guess is, this was the add-ons for those that maybe>bought AR-1W's earlier, and were using alternate tweeters and>mids, such as Janszen 1-30 Electrostatic Arrays.>>The AR-1 may not have had all that the owners were wanting and>here was an alternative mid and high end.>>The AR-3st (1958 - 1962) is the tweeter or also referred to as>super tweeter, driver only, complete with crossover cap and>pot.>>By changing the jumper connection, can be used either as, a 4>or 8 ohm tweeter only, or super tweeter, as they used to refer>to it.>>I have followed several auctions with these on them over the>last few years.>>I have been skunked with only the empty cabinets even.>>My thanks to the poster who sent the photo here and downloaded>it.>>In the library, the AR Chronological order list is not 100%>totally correct.>>I have been re-doing the list slightly and updating it as>well, including a fuse size column, in a Excel spreadsheet.>>For example: these two speakers are not complete as they are>written, and several other models are missing, unless I need>new glases again. lol.>>When I have, what I consider to be a worthwhile posting, I>will email a copy to TomT and a few other members to approve>it, then maybe we can update the copy in the library later.>>It will then be a small downloadable Excel file, unless it>should be a PDF file for protection.>>Question of the day, Carl, have you ever touched or serviced>one of these speakers in your past?No I haven't. This is the first time I've seen these - hence my reaction initially.>>Does anyone, other than TomT, own a pair or one of these?>>Heavens to Betsy, is anyone stacking these. lolRemember, it's all about the musicCarlCarl's Custom Loudspeakers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlspeak Posted August 29, 2006 Report Share Posted August 29, 2006 Any info on how many were made Tom?They do appear to be rare 'birds'Remember, it's all about the musicCarlCarl's Custom Loudspeakers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tysontom Posted August 29, 2006 Report Share Posted August 29, 2006 >Any info on how many were made Tom?>They do appear to be rare 'birds'>Carl, I don't know the numbers made. AR sold them from 1960 until 1969 before discontinuing their production. Since these were somewhat "specialty" items, there probably were not a great deal of them sold -- perhaps a few thousand total of each type, but I don't know.Sales of these units were good during the early 1960s, however, as many people had AR-1s or AR-1Ws that were candidates for updating to the dome tweeters. Towards 1969 there probably were very few sold. AR made the AR-3 for fourteen years before ending production in 1973, so the AR-3t and AR-3st were discontinued long before the end of the AR-3 itself.--Tom Tyson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlspeak Posted August 29, 2006 Report Share Posted August 29, 2006 >>Any info on how many were made Tom?>>They do appear to be rare 'birds'>>>>Carl, I don't know the numbers made. AR sold them from 1960>until 1969 before discontinuing their production. Since these>were somewhat "specialty" items, there probably were>not a great deal of them sold -- perhaps a few thousand total>of each type, but I don't know.Tom:The "Chronological Order" spreadsheet found in the AR library has a different date range. Both models are listed as 1958-1962 only. I don't know who put this sheet together and can't vouch for it's accuracy. What say you?Remember, it's all about the musicCarlCarl's Custom Loudspeakers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charger3834 Posted August 29, 2006 Report Share Posted August 29, 2006 Hi Carl,That spreadsheet in the library is pretty handy, but it has a number of mistakes that I can identify. Stick with Tom's dates. In fact, always stick with Tom; he is so accurate it's scary ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dynaco_dan Posted August 29, 2006 Report Share Posted August 29, 2006 >>Any info on how many were made Tom?>>They do appear to be rare 'birds'>>>>Carl, I don't know the numbers made. AR sold them from 1960>until 1969 before discontinuing their production. Since these>were somewhat "specialty" items, there probably were>not a great deal of them sold -- perhaps a few thousand total>of each type, but I don't know.>>Sales of these units were good during the early 1960s,>however, as many people had AR-1s or AR-1Ws that were>candidates for updating to the dome tweeters. Towards 1969>there probably were very few sold. AR made the AR-3 for>fourteen years before ending production in 1973, so the AR-3t>and AR-3st were discontinued long before the end of the AR-3>itself.>>--Tom TysonHi Tom;With your valuable input, as always, you now have updated the correct years for the 3 different speakers you listed, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dynaco_dan Posted August 29, 2006 Report Share Posted August 29, 2006 Hi there;As always, after I turn off the computer, I think of something else to write about.I noticed also that the AR-3st was available with a choice of two different grille cloths, in addition to multiple cabinet finishes.Does anyone know about or have a copy of the Audio Magazine's AR hemispherical tweeter technical article? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loudbuff Posted August 29, 2006 Report Share Posted August 29, 2006 >>I have an AR-3st and can post some pictures if there is>>interest (inside and outside). It has a simple filter, a>cap>>to protect the tweeter and a coil (unmarked) to roll off>the>>speaker used for the bass/midrange (an AR-1 in my case).>>>>Sounds great and while I'm very happy with the sound of>the>>AR-1 alone, this tweeter works wonders for dispersion!>>>>Loudbuff>>>>>>>Hi Anders;>>Thank you very much for responding.>>It would be very much appreciated, if you would please>download some photos, thank you.>>I read that you only have one, and also only one, AR-1>speaker, as well, is this correct?>>Are you listening in mono?>>Do you have an AR-3 or other speaker, for the other channel?>>Please do not do anything, that may endanger the speaker>driver or enclosure, for the photos.>>These were in limited supply and it is nice that an owner>would be on this site and willing to take quality detailed>photos.>>As a side note, would you like to comment on what improvements>there are overall with high energy music with the AR-3st?>>Would you also please tell us what happens to the music, when>you revert to just the standard AR-1 speaker system by itself,>please.>>Would you have the original owners manual, by chance, to scan>and download?>>I am always willing and very happy to babysit any or all AR>speakers, while the homeowners are on holidays. lol>>Thank you again, AndersHi Verne,I have enclosed some hastily taken pictures. More to follow as well a scan of the useräs manual.I use the AR-1 and AR-3st for mono with real momo sources. For stereo I have AR-3a, AR-LST, AR-MST (type 1), AR-12 and AR-28. All fed from an AR turntable of course.I try to restore my speakers to as close to roiginal as pissible (worst job so far was the AR-12 midranges). The small damage you can see on the masonite backpnel of the AR-3st was caused by the previous owner, however, the fact that he had opened them came in handy as I had to restore the pot .The capacitor is a 2uF + 2uF type with the to sections in parallell to give 4uF. The coil is unmarked.The combination AR-1 + AR-3st sounds very sweet. The, in these circles, much maligned Altec 755 is in fact a very good midrange speaker! The bggest advantage of adding the supertweeter is in dispersion though. the 755 starts beaming in a very annoying way on its own.Must sleep, more to followAndershttp://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/1529.jpghttp://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/1530.jpghttp://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/1531.txt1531.txt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loudbuff Posted August 29, 2006 Report Share Posted August 29, 2006 Ha!Must learn how to attach pictures...!:-)Andershttp://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/1532.jpghttp://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/1533.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tysontom Posted August 29, 2006 Report Share Posted August 29, 2006 >"Originally, during AR-3 development, the speaker was to>be a 2-way design with the 2-inch dome serving as the>high-frequency section, but on- and off-axis performance above>10 kHz was not adequate, so the smaller dome was used to>enhance the performance at high frequencies, and it became>known as the "supertweeter.">>The AR-3 was intended to be a 2-way speaker--how about that! I>pride myself at knowing just about as much as anyone about the>developmental history and chronology of AR products--and I>never knew this!>>Thanks, Tom. Absolutely fascinating.>>We all owe you one.Steve F.:I’ve looked back through my notes to find the original data on the AR-3 development in order to elaborate on my “2-way-speaker” statement above. I cannot document any statements to that effect that the AR-3 was originally to be a 2-way speaker, although I know that I have read that before. For the sake of accuracy, I think that I should re-state that Villchur was not *specifically* developing a 2-way loudspeaker; rather, he was looking (far into the future, I might add) for a loudspeaker that had wide dispersion across the entire audio band, and he found that while the 2-inch tweeter was excellent on-axis out past 15 kHz, it had diminished off-axis performance above about 7 kHz. He knew that it was going to take a smaller dome to get the ideal response out to 20 kHz, and he used the 1-3/8-inch dome to do this. There was never an AR-3 with only the 2-inch dome. Even the original prototype had the 2-inch and 1-3/8-inch domes mounted on a single cast-aluminum plate (somewhat akin to the Lambda AR-9Ls midrange-tweeter).http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/1535.jpgSo, Steve, consider that until I can find the original data, the AR-3 was intended to be a 3-way loudspeaker! Part of the confusion is the fact that the 2-inch driver has always been referred to as the “2-inch tweeter,” and the 1-3/8-inch tweeter has been called the “super tweeter.”--Tom Tyson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dynaco_dan Posted August 29, 2006 Report Share Posted August 29, 2006 Hi Anders;Great photos, Anders, thank you very much.I see that you only have a few dozen AR speakers, a true hifi ar-nut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tysontom Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 >>Tom:>The "Chronological Order" spreadsheet found in the>AR library has a different date range. Both models are listed>as 1958-1962 only. I don't know who put this sheet together>and can't vouch for it's accuracy. What say you?>Carl, the AR-3t and AR-3st were still listed in the 1969 AR price list, so they were available at least up until that time. They were not available to the US Armed Services for that long, however, only for domestic sales. I am not positive of the beginning date for the 3t and 3st; however, I am sure it was not 1958 since the AR-3 was not even introduced until the New York Audio Show in September or October of that year. Production AR-3s began shipping only in February or March, 1959.So the 1958-1962 date range is not correct.--Tom Tyson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dynaco_dan Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 Hi Tom;Thank you for your kind feedback.This topic is really getting interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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