Should i put my AR3's on stands?

[Guest centaurus]

hi all,

i'm new ot the world of AR. my AR3's are currently on the floor, about 2 inches from the back walls. i assume these should be on stands? what is the detriment of not having them raised, sonically speaking?

can i just use books for now? how high should i make them? what are some decent and cheap stands that approximate the height of the original AR stands?

thanks,

Robby

[tysontom]

>hi all,

>

>i'm new ot the world of AR. my AR3's are currently on the

>floor, about 2 inches from the back walls. i assume these

>should be on stands? what is the detriment of not having them

>raised, sonically speaking?

>

>can i just use books for now? how high should i make them?

>what are some decent and cheap stands that approximate the

>height of the original AR stands?

>

Robby,

You raise an interesting question regarding placement of your AR-3s. The design of all of the early AR speakers was that they were intended to be used "looking" into a 180-degree solid angle, or simply put, placed back against a wall, out of the corners, up off the floor. The bass response of the AR-3 is flattest, and least boomy, when actually placed within a bookshelf flush with the surface. Few people do this anymore. The image below is how I mount my AR-3as:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/dc/user_files/1064.jpg

AR-3a bookshelf-mounted (Tyson AR-3a system)

Because many music listeners do not necessarily have bookshelves into which to mount their AR speakers, AR made available several speaker floor stands for all of the "classic" AR speakers, including such stands as the original (and quite rare) wrought-iron "Speaker Stands" with wood shelves for horizontal placement, the solid-Walnut "Speaker Base" for vertical placement, the later-version "Speaker Base" made of vinyl-covered MDF and finally the steel-tube (square tube) metal stands made in England originally for the (ADD) AR-10Pi, AR-11 and AR-12 speakers. When you place the speakers on stands, you eliminate the "boominess" that is associated with floor-placement. Ironically, when floor-mounted, there is an improvement in the boundary interference effect (known as the "Allison Effect"), in which the woofers output bounces off the rear wall and floor, out of phase with the front-firing wave, at certain bass frequencies. Putting the speaker on the floor reduces that effect, but the woofer's bass output is elevated in the mid-bass and below due to the close proximity of the woofer to the floor. You could put an AR-3 upside-down, but the tweeters are then firing into the floor, which isn't particularly good. This is the reason for bookshelf-mounting, in my opinion. It eliminates all of those evil problems. Also, the midrange-tweeter are somewhat more "vertically" aligned when the AR-3 is mounted horizontally, and this improves the midrange/high-frequency response slightly for an entirely different reason.

Is all this confusing enough?

--Tom Tyson

[Carlspeak]

Another important point I'd like to add regarding speaker placement is I've found the tweeter and mids on the 2a's and 3a's are quite directional which, I think, necessitates getting them as close to ear level as possible in order to hear all the detail and appreciate the best soundstage these speakers can provide. I couldn't tell from your photo where they are relative to ear level when seated in a listening position.

Remember, it's all about the music

Carl

Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

[tysontom]

>Another important point I'd like to add regarding speaker

>placement is I've found the tweeter and mids on the 2a's and

>3a's are quite directional which, I think, necessitates

>getting them as close to ear level as possible in order to

>hear all the detail and appreciate the best soundstage these

>speakers can provide. I couldn't tell from your photo where

>they are relative to ear level when seated in a listening

>position.

>

>Remember, it's all about the music

>

>Carl

>Carl's Custom Loudspeakers

The speakers in the bookshelf are probably 45-inches above floor level. I would not characterize the AR 3/4-inch tweeter as being directional, however, as they have exceptionally wide dispersion throughout the treble range. Only the Allison tweeter surpassed this tweeter in my experience, and then only slightly. I do believe that since the sound output in the treble is slightly "laid back," as they say, it is better to have the speakers placed closer to ear level, as you suggest.

I listen to music well-back in the listening room where the sound is largely the "reverberant" sound field, and the AR-3as sound exceptionally smooth and spacious in this setting. This pair has the #9 coil, incidentally, thank goodness!

--Tom Tyson

[Guest OldRelayer]

Many of the sited reasons may not affect your situation where your not going to use the mid/tweeter. Most people prefer them up because it does create a cleaner bass.

I once had the wood cross stand that were $10 back when AR sold them, but getting a pair now a days is impossible and if you do they will be in the $150 range. This stand is 11 inches high, so if you take that at face value, you can take that as a recommendation from AR as to how high they think they should be, but even higher is better I think. At some point it does get a little weird and maybe even dangerous. I think books might work as a temporary measure, although I have never tried it.

Bed Bath and Beyond and probably thousands of other places sells something they call Nesting Cubes. Basically 3 rectangles that stack one inside the other. The middle one is 9 inches high and that is what we are using (AR use to sell one that looks quite like it but it is 4 inches high). They sell for $30 but you need two sets to get a pair, you will find a thousand uses for the other ones, we now have 3 sets and thinking of buying a 4th for other things. We are talking about flipping it over and getting another 3 or 4 inches out of it, will probably try that as soon as there are two people, one to pickup the speaker and one to flip it over. It won't offer as much stability, so not sure how that is going to work out, it can't hurt to have the mid/tweeter more at ear level in my case, in your case I am thinking 7 to 11 inches would do the trick. The bass will still be quite strong but I suspect you will find it cleaner. If it wasn't the middle of the night, I would go take a picture of one.

Thanks

Barry

[Guest centaurus]

thanks tom adn everyone for your advice.

MUCH BETTER!

i temporarily put them on plastic milk crates (with a cloth so i don't damage the bottom of the speakers).

boominess totally went away and the mids and soundstage really came alive!

i do notice a vieled and muffled presentation with regards to the lower mids/upper bass. it's especially noticible on electric jazz guitar. you hear the bottm end and the string attack, but not the body of the guitar. but, as i understand it, this is the weakness of the AR3 (and to a lesser extent, the AR3a).

vocals do sound amazing and the tweeters are very realistic and detailed. sure, they are probably challenged above 17k, but who really needs to hear that high anyway? i swear all new conventional driver speakers, regardless of price could attract bats with their gnarly high frequency responses ;-) leave the area above 17k to electrostatics and ribbons...

bah, there's rooom in my system for both the janszen Z-600s and AR3s. i'll just have the janszens flanked by one AR per side. i'll use the ARs as stereo subs and connect the jumpers when i want to hear a different take on a recording. i will be using early cloth surround AR2 woofers in place of the janszen 350B. supposed to be quite the drop-in upgrade. we'll see. now what to do about my bozak 302A Urbans???

see ya,

Robby

[Guest centaurus]

i should also say that by using the AR3s as subs, i am in no way saying that my janszens are better than the AR3s. if that were the case, the AR3 wouldn't be worth over 3X as much as the Z-600s.

i dig both of them in different ways. the janszens have awesome mids/HF response with so-so bass. the AR3s have great mids/HF response and other wordly bass. they do have a bit of a hole in the upper bass/lower mid region and are not as smooth (in mids and treble) as the janszens. but are still very pleasing.

that about sums it up thus far. i will say this. i need to buy some contact spray for the pots because at present, the mids only work at the high setting. which is way too forward.

i will tell you this. i've owned and tried a lot of speakers in my system. the AR3s are a class act. even when compared to tannoy monitor gold and silver 12's, JBL harkness (with D130s and 075 horns) apogee centaur minors, JBL's with D130s 375 and 175s and lowthers. The AR3s lay them all to waste!

see ya,

Robby