Enhancing the high-end clarity of the 3a

[Guest russwollman]

Please note that I don't like beginning correspondence with "I", but I have a pair of 3a's that I can't yet bring myself to sell. I have a running battle deciding between keeping them or a double Advent system.

The Advents have a clarity and crispness, a definition that the 3a's to my ears do not. But the 3a's never become harsh and thus seem able to handle a lot of power.

Does anyone have some advice, backed up by experience, on how to give the 3a's some of that clarity without changing the essential quality of their sound? The pair I have is box stock with the exception of the level controls.

I have read on this site about the purist's side of this matter and leaving well enough alone, but if I could replace 4 Advents with 2 (heavy) ARs, that might be a far less bulky arrangement.

Parenthetically—I spoke today with Steve at Layne Audio. His life seems to have eased somewhat lately to the point where he can be reached by phone. He's a good man.

[Guest dogmeninreno]

>Please note that I don't like beginning correspondence with

>"I", but I have a pair of 3a's that I can't yet bring myself

>to sell. I have a running battle deciding between keeping them

>or a double Advent system.

>

>The Advents have a clarity and crispness, a definition that

>the 3a's to my ears do not. But the 3a's never become harsh

>and thus seem able to handle a lot of power.

>

>Does anyone have some advice, backed up by experience, on how

>to give the 3a's some of that clarity without changing the

>essential quality of their sound? The pair I have is box stock

>with the exception of the level controls.

>

>I have read on this site about the purist's side of this

>matter and leaving well enough alone, but if I could replace 4

>Advents with 2 (heavy) ARs, that might be a far less bulky

>arrangement.

>

>Parenthetically—I spoke today with Steve at Layne Audio. His

>life seems to have eased somewhat lately to the point where he

>can be reached by phone. He's a good man.

>

>

Congratulations being one of us who has contacted Steven at Layne Audio. I have been trying for 4 months. I agree he is a good fellow. If you want to revoice your AR3a's, Steve can provide you with several options but they will no longer be vintage AR3a's, but It's entirely up to your ears. As I understand, The 3a's are designed for uncolored sound (natural) to reproduce what your amp is delivering. If you want more high end, simply adjust your amplifier for the sound you like. Any modification will be defeating the original desiginers purpose no matter how tempting don't do it!. Good luck, Dale

[ninohernes]

Try bringing up the level of the tweeters, and backing off the midranges a bit.

[Guest russwollman]

Thanks. I have tried adjusting the level controls but I'm so out of the habit of adjusting preamp tone controls that I didn't think of that.

It may be time to go hear the symphony for a taste of real live sound.

The 3a cabinets impress me with their integrity and stoutness, great materials and impressive internal bracing. When I rap the side of them, the sound is very solid. The Advents yield a hollow ring, and I can hear some of that when they're played: the sound, some of it, seems to be coming out of a box. I suspect the cabinets are crucial as well as is the stuffing, both in its quality and quantity.

[dynaco_dan]

Hi there

I started out with AR-4x's in the mid '60's, AR amp, AR Turntable w/ Stanton 681EE and A stylus, AR Tuner and stock drug store cables. It was extremely enjoyable listening to records or FM at the time. I bought direct recorded disks when I was only an apprentice at the time. Talk about Champagne taste and Volkswagen budget, Heh. Well many years later and I've owned AR-3a's, LST's, Dynaco A25, 35, 50, NHT Superzero's and others. I've had Crown DC300 and IC 150, LST's, Janszen 130 Electrostatics, Microstat Tweeter Array and other toys in my home as loaners as well as owning some. When I had the AR-4x's I was really happy. If you pay more it must be better, right? Well, maybe. Changing up to the AR-3a's was a real wow factor at the 4x's being about $70.00 cdn net in mid '60's and the 3a's about $350.00 cdn net. What did I hear differently? I'm still drooling after all these years. The 4x's were as Consumer Reports stated "the widest range loudspeaker Consumers had ever tested" if my memory serves me correctly. The 3a's are a little clearer, better dispersed and have a big tad deeper bass. Until I had the 3a's I didn't know that the 4x's were deficient in any area. I am not being super critical but after a while the 3a's were the winners in my book. UNTIL, darn I was loaned the Crown amp and Pre-amp and it took about 30 seconds to appreciate that the AR amp didn't quite have the same deep tight bass, etc as the Crowns. Back to the store with the Crowns and back home with Janszen 130 and the Microstat Tweeters for a weekend. Sitting on top of 3a's with only the woofer operating it was, to say the least, a very interesting listening session to say the least. They also were returned to the store. A pair of ARLST's were then brought home and with an audience including some Russian sailors who couldn't speak english and only wanted to hear The Poppy Family. Well Simon and Garfunkels Cecelia was never loud enough for the group but all were smiling anyways. The 3a's I'm referring to were late '60's models and other than refoaming are original. I have also had single and double Advents to listen to so I will make my final (yeh sure) comment that if you have original drivers, etc stay with AR-3a's with both level controls near maximum. If need be, remove woofer and apply by spray bottle, Deoxit to pots. Don't sub drivers. Keep them at least vertical with the tweeter about ear level. Use at least 12 guage stranded wire with in line fuseholder and 1 amp fast blow fuses. The speakers can handle a lot of power but at 1 amp you shouldn't have to worry about a blown tweeter. Heath used a 5 amp fuse in their AS-103 kit which was a bit large, I sure wouldn't. I have read many eBay ads where everything but the cabinet is new or subbed. Can't still be the original brand. When the Larger Advent was new I was asked to buy a friend a pair of 3a's but I chose for him the Larger Advent in vinyl and he has always been very pleased. They were approx $180.00 cdn then. When I asked the store what I could receive in trade for 3a's towards the Advents he said even trade. I said no way Jose. The AR-3a's were a reference speaker system by most standards until the LST's came along and I felt they were worth twice as much as a 3a. Now that I have put you to sleep, have a great day. I am always approachable for conversation.

[ninohernes]

>Thanks. I have tried adjusting the level controls but I'm so

>out of the habit of adjusting preamp tone controls that I

>didn't think of that.

>

>It may be time to go hear the symphony for a taste of real

>live sound.

>

That actually would be a good idea. I see live shows all of the time. I can tell you for sure, that the AR-3a sounds exactly like the live performance. The tonal balence is perfect, when the tweeter level control is just over normal.

[Guest russwollman]

That accuracy was the claim in those AR comparisons in the 1960s. They engendered my respect with their brilliant and intelligent low-key advertising, with those response graphs and quiet, confident words.

When I look at the 3a, it conveys such simple integrity and strength. On top of that, it's so HEAVY, really DENSE, just like my 1965 Lincoln Continental convertible.

[soundminded]

One suggeston is to replace the crossover network capacitors for the midrange and the tweeter. If you are not a purist, you might try polypropylene caps. If you want to tinker with the freqeuncy response, try a 10 or 12 band graphic equalizer. A slight boost in the 4 khz range often gives the subjective impression of increased clarity but not necessarily greater accuracy. If you go too far, the sound can get harsh. Personally, I'd try adding some indirect firing tweeters. My experience is that this can drastically improve the clarity and openness of the sound. It helps if you can adjust its level independently to get the optimal balance and you may decide to back off on the main tweeter to compensate for the additional hf output keeping the overall response balanced.

Good luck.

[Guest Nigel]

Russ;

You do not mention the amplifier you are using - is it powerful enough and well controlled with the difficult load provided by the AR3a speakers? Something in excess of 150 Watts per channel into 4 ohms is appropriate.

[soundminded]

>That accuracy was the claim in those AR comparisons in the

>1960s. They engendered my respect with their brilliant and

>intelligent low-key advertising, with those response graphs

>and quiet, confident words.

They engendered my respect with their live versus recorded demos. This was the only real proof of accuracy any speaker manufacturer ever offered as far as I am concerned. When you hear the original against the recording and can decide for yourself, that's when they lay it on the line. The rest is just a bunch of words.

>When I look at the 3a, it conveys such simple integrity and

>strength. On top of that, it's so HEAVY, really DENSE, just

>like my 1965 Lincoln Continental convertible.

We had a 66 hardtop. Fantastic car with a black roof and a dark green metalic finish with billions of minute flecks of gold in it. Interior was black leather. Despite its 5600 pounds, it went like a bat out of hell. At 80 mph on an interstate highway with the windows rolled up and all that dark tinted glass, you felt like you were doing 40 in any other car. The road just rolled by like you were looking at it on a movie screen. The steering and braking had a weird feel. You just thought about what you wanted the car to do and it seemed it just did it. Pushing on the brake pedal was like putting your foot into a pillow. The car had no vibrations and made no noise audible to anyone inside. I can see why some people feel it was numbing. And the interior was dead quiet without even wind noise. Sometimes it was hard to tell if the engine was running. I especially liked the suicide doors (the rear doors were hinged from the back and there was no center post.) The slab sides made it very easy to judge just how wide the car was in tight spaces. Too bad it was a piece of junk and fell apart. I never knew another car to need so many repairs so frequently except maybe for our Edsel. And my 66 T-Bird. And my 96 Mark 8 LSC hasn't exactly been 100 percent reliable, in fact it has had a vast number of repairs for mostly strange things like door handles, power door locks, and engine control computers but fortunately, Lincoln paid for a lot of it under warrantee. However, after $1600 for new headlights at my cost, this may be my last Ford product. And I will never patronize Sylvania, "dem bums." What ever happened to $10 replacement bulbs at Pep Boys?

[Guest russwollman]

Nigel, I use a NAD 2600, which makes 150w/ch. Maybe it's no good and I ought to find something hopelessly expensive from a small company with a weird techno name no one's ever heard of...

The 3a's, as I said, never become harsh sounding as do the Advents at higher levels, but their sound is somewhat different from Advents despite their common ground. The thing is, I have to listen and see which I enjoy more.

How many speakers does 1 man with 2 ears need in a 3-room apartment?

Wait...don't answer that one, please.

Could it be that if the Lord had meant for us to have multi-channel systems, he would have give us 5 ears?

Wait...I think the biotechnology crowd will inadvertently answer that one in a few years.

[Carlspeak]

Here's another idea for improving clarity that represents a compromise between the purists (don't change anything) and Layne Audio's st'd xover upgrade kit.

It doesn't involve replacing the mid and tweeter caps. Simply bypass them with VERY high quality caps with values

Carl, The SpeakerDoctor

[soundminded]

This topic came up recently on another web site and this thought occurred to me. Subjective improved clarity does not necessarily correlate to increased accuracy. Anyone familiar with communications equipment knows that you can buy microphones which have a deliberate peak at about 4 khz because that is where a lot of the sibilant and explosive parts of speech which make words intelligable are. Under marginal conditions, when more rf energy is spent transmitting these parts of speech, it can mean the difference between intelligable and unintelligable reception. Clarity resulting from reduced harmonic distortion and extended freqeuncy response is valuable. Clarity which is obtained by exaggerating some parts of the spectrum and/or reducing other parts achieves it goal at the expense of accuracy. Be sure you know what you are getting and what you are not when you make this kind of tradeoff.

[dynaco_dan]

>Hi there

>

>I started out with AR-4x's in the mid '60's, AR amp, AR

>Turntable w/ Stanton 681EE and A stylus, AR Tuner and stock

>drug store cables. It was extremely enjoyable listening to

>records or FM at the time. I bought direct recorded disks when

> I was only an apprentice at the time. Talk about Champagne

>taste and Volkswagen budget, Heh. Well many years later and

>I've owned AR-3a's, LST's, Dynaco A25, 35, 50, NHT Superzero's

>and others. I've had Crown DC300 and IC 150, LST's, Janszen

>130 Electrostatics, Microstat Tweeter Array and other toys in

>my home as loaners as well as owning some. When I had the

>AR-4x's I was really happy. If you pay more it must be better,

>right? Well, maybe. Changing up to the AR-3a's was a real wow

>factor at the 4x's being about $70.00 cdn net in mid '60's and

>the 3a's about $350.00 cdn net. What did I hear differently?

>I'm still drooling after all these years. The 4x's were as

>Consumer Reports stated "the widest range loudspeaker

>Consumers had ever tested" if my memory serves me correctly.

>The 3a's are a little clearer, better dispersed and have a big

>tad deeper bass. Until I had the 3a's I didn't know that the

>4x's were deficient in any area. I am not being super critical

>but after a while the 3a's were the winners in my book. UNTIL,

>darn I was loaned the Crown amp and Pre-amp and it took about

>30 seconds to appreciate that the AR amp didn't quite have the

>same deep tight bass, etc as the Crowns. Back to the store

>with the Crowns and back home with Janszen 130 and the

>Microstat Tweeters for a weekend. Sitting on top of 3a's with

>only the woofer operating it was, to say the least, a very

>interesting listening session to say the least. They also were

>returned to the store. A pair of ARLST's were then brought

>home and with an audience including some Russian sailors who

>couldn't speak english and only wanted to hear The Poppy

>Family. Well Simon and Garfunkels Cecelia was never loud

>enough for the group but all were smiling anyways. The 3a's

>I'm referring to were late '60's models and other than

>refoaming are original. I have also had single and double

>Advents to listen to so I will make my final (yeh sure)

>comment that if you have original drivers, etc stay with

>AR-3a's with both level controls near maximum. If need be,

>remove woofer and apply by spray bottle, Deoxit to pots. Don't

>sub drivers. Keep them at least vertical with the tweeter

>about ear level. Use at least 12 guage stranded wire with in

>line fuseholder and 1 amp fast blow fuses. The speakers can

>handle a lot of power but at 1 amp you shouldn't have to worry

>about a blown tweeter. Heath used a 5 amp fuse in their AS-103

>kit which was a bit large, I sure wouldn't. I have read many

>eBay ads where everything but the cabinet is new or subbed.

>Can't still be the original brand. When the Larger Advent was

>new I was asked to buy a friend a pair of 3a's but I chose for

>him the Larger Advent in vinyl and he has always been very

>pleased. They were approx $180.00 cdn then. When I asked the

>store what I could receive in trade for 3a's towards the

>Advents he said even trade. I said no way Jose. The AR-3a's

>were a reference speaker system by most standards until the

>LST's came along and I felt they were worth twice as much as a

>3a. Now that I have put you to sleep, have a great day. I am

>always approachable for conversation.

Updated 20040803

Correction to the Heath fuse size, it was 3 amp (3AG-3A) fast blow not 5. Just for your information Heath U$ 1971 cat. prices; level ctl. $1.75, 50/150uf cap $20.40, 2.8mH ind 3.20, tw 15, mid, 40, woof 80. The cabinet was 41.00 w/padding. The screw in cap for the fuseholder used an o-ring to seal. Very interesting trivia I thought others might like to know about. The owners/assembly manual included graphs and schematics of each driver. I will be sending a copy to Mark to post in a few months.