ra.ra
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Posts posted by ra.ra
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5 hours ago, Soundgarden said:
....some have been given a treatment with a black product.....
This has been mentioned a few times in this forum - - - the black surrounds simply used butyl treatment that was colored with the addition of lamp black.
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46 minutes ago, Soundgarden said:
One of the woofers has a small tear.....
Cone or surround? Please post pics to describe the problem.
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55 minutes ago, JKent said:
If one of your inductors has 265 turns, and the 2 woofers look different (from each other) is it possible you have 1 common 4x and 1 of the rarer ones?
This is exactly the first thought I had, and confirmation will be dependent upon having comparative pics of both speaker assemblies. And Kent is correct about the number of caps and number of wires - - this has already been confirmed by the photos in this recently revived portion of this thread .
From R-dog's serial numbers, I would guess these 4x speakers might date from late 1970 or early 1971 (320XXX is april 1970; 383XXX is october 1971), and I would assume the original AR-4 woofers had most likely been depleted by then. As mentioned far earlier in this thread, all 2-cap and 265 coil 4x's I've seen have been in the range of s/n 28,000 to 42,000, but perhaps we have yet another outlier here.
Re: posting pics - - whatever you did in previous post was perfect: jpeg files under 100KB.
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51 minutes ago, ar_pro said:
Sadly, the November, 2019 issue of Stereophile contains an article by Art Dudley....
Coincidentally, I just happened to see this article yesterday, too, and I cringed while reading through one dismissive comment after another. The article was titled "The Third Rail", and was touted with "This issue: Art Dudley says six things that audio reviewers aren't supposed to say. Ever." Dudley's most glowing remarks were when he allowed himself to state that Villchur sounds "like a pretty good guy" and "a pretty smart guy". Even the table of contents attempts to fan the flames with this lure: "Art Dudley says some things he probably shouldn't."
The summary posted by ar_pro is very good, and if this article cannot be located online, I could possibly scan a cobbled-together print version to post here.
Infrequently, a friend of mine drops off a copy of this rag for me and it usually cannot make it to the recycling bin fast enough. I don't know anyone who travels in this world ($3200 cartridges, $37K speakers, $170K/pair mono amps....), but the attack on acoustic suspension speakers definitely caught my eye and I immediately thought about this forum.
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Thanks, Kent, for providing the L-pad terminal wiring yet again. And R-dog, you should probably have enough information now to get your situation straightened out. Still, this excellent thread would be worth consuming - - it includes L-pad installations in multiple AR-4x projects with and without the added resistor; and yes, your 50W L-pads will work just fine.
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Just for posterity in this thread, I'm posting a pic of original crossover (two cap with three wires) found in the "oddball" version of AR-4x that uses the woofer from the AR-4.
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Thanks for posting the pics....just to confirm, could you also report the serial numbers as found on the rear labels? From everything I can see, you do not have the two-cap "oddball" version of the AR-4x - - - instead, what you have is the far more typical version of the 4x.
Your woofer - - with fully circular basket frame - - is clearly different from the one found in the 4x speakers shown here by Coleman and myself. And your crossover shows a #5 coil atop the wax block capacitor which I suspect is a single 20uF cap with two wires (green, blue). Also, it appears that the potentiometer has been re-wired in an attempt to bypass this variable control.
If my assumptions are correct that you have the typical AR-4x, you will only need the 20uF cap and will not need the 24uF caps. The attached schematic should be your basic wiring guide, and you can see that the woofer and tweeter are wired with opposite polarity - - the positive red wire from the woofer connects with the #2 terminal, while the positive yellow wire from the tweeter connects thru the control and then to the #1 terminal.
Using new L-pads is a good idea, but you will also need some additional member help here regarding the specific wiring to this device, and whether or not an additional resistor is required. Be patient and work slowly - - you've got a fine pair of speakers worthy of your restoration efforts.
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12 hours ago, JKent said:
...pic of a shoulder washer...
Yeah, that's a very good pic -- thanks -- now I can totally understand how that screw becomes fully isolated from the back plate, and yes, I agree that using conductive metal for the back plate might not have been the best decision. On so many other vintage speakers, hardboard (Masonite) seems to work just fine for this purpose and does not present this problem of electrical conductivity, which then requires the special washers.
12 hours ago, JKent said:The Model Fives have a hard finish. It's not lacquer ... and is a dog to remove
And thanks again, this is good to know. The Fives are the speakers I had in mind - - I am several months late getting to a restoration of KLH Fives and every time I handle the cabinets I get to thinking about the finish. On this pair, the cab finish is pretty good but could be better, and I'm mostly inclined not to attack them with any vigorous re-finishing attempts.
Looking forward to seeing your completed project.
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1 hour ago, rebelliondog said:
I have the 265 coil, two capacitors in the little ‘wallet’ underneath it all.
OK....good to know....I just had to ask before going further....and I like that term "little wallet". My cap assembly was just a mashed-up bundle of wax with three protruding wires. Pic attached shows mine in original state - - no caged tweeters, but I do have the tic-tac-toe on woofers.
Posting pics here is simple - - a digital image, jpg format preferable, 100KB maximum.
2 hours ago, rebelliondog said:....maybe I followed it properly and it won’t work...
Probably not, but once you post pics with descriptions, this should get figured out with some patience.
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Hey Kent, those are looking really great - - I love restoration projects that are pulled from the trash heap! In your third post, is the thing you call the "shoulder washer" also made of rubber? - - it looks pretty thick in your pics. Also, about the finish - - do we know if the original KLH finish was an oil substance or something different? I know I've seen an original company document here about boiled linseed oil, but I cannot recall if that was for AR or KLH products (or both?).
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20 minutes ago, rebelliondog said:
...if either of these two posters are still around to help...
Hey R-dog, I just happen to be lurking here today....so welcome to the forum.
Not sure what's going on with your speakers, but I hope you understand that the dialog in this thread is specifically targeted to the oddball version of AR-4x that uses the older AR-4 woofer, has two capacitors, and the 265-turn coil. Unless you have this semi-rare version of AR-4x, this dialog, these sketches, and the photos shown here do not apply to the more typical AR-4x. Please confirm your speaker serial numbers and post a pic or two and you'll get plenty of help here.
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Hi Giorgio, perhaps this thread might turn into a good discussion about AR's various 10-inch woofers. Also, I just want to point out two small typos - - your photo captions should note 200033 woofer (and not 200030). One other observation - - it is interesting to see AR-92's with real wood veneer cabinets - - I believe that in the U.S. these were only available in faux wood vinyl.
Am happy to hear that your woofer substitution has yielded satisfactory results, but after looking at the original uses of these woofers, this experiment surprised me a bit - - at first I would not have anticipated such pleasant results. Quite possible that I've omitted something here, but I think the 200033 woofer was used only in the AR-92 (4-ohm three-way speaker, x-o freq. 700Hz). Similarly, the 200040 woofer was initially intended for the AR-14 (8-ohm two-way speaker, x-o freq. 1300Hz) and soon thereafter was used in another two way model, the AR-38s (8-ohm, 2000Hz). During those late 70's / early 80's years, the 10-inch 040 woofer also found its way into two subsequent three-way models: the AR-48s (6-ohm, 400Hz) and the AR-48b (6-ohm, 400Hz), so I guess it should not be surprising that the 040 driver can work well in a variety of configurations. Additionally, it is most likely easier to obtain than the original 033 woofer from the AR-92.
And although I am not skilled enough to decipher all the technical specs shown here, these two woofers (033 and 040) do have rather different performance parameters according to specs found on AR drawings (see attached) .
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On 10/13/2019 at 2:42 PM, Giorgio AR said:
....where you see the AR7 capacitor and it's a 6mF blue Sprague...
Thanks for the crossover pic confirming Sprague cap - - - I have not been inside many AR-7's, but this is the only configuration I've ever seen, and in both of my pairs, caps all measured good and I left it all original - - no cap replacement in either pair - - electrolytics still good after 45 years.
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SteveB, thanks for posting those pics. Your original concept of just transplanting woofers to make one good pair of speakers might result in satisfactory performance, but I actually think you have the makings for two pairs of "restored" speakers.
I would agree with Giorgio that your AR-16's have cabinets in very nice condition, and assuming the drivers are functional, these appear to be excellent candidates for a full restoration. Aside from their relative rarity, yours appear to have very early serial numbers, excellent veneer, and original grilles and badges. These should not be significantly altered since all original components appear intact, just awaiting a new lease on life. I'm beginning to think the AR-16 was perhaps offered only in the European (and Australian) market(s), as there are telltale signs of Euro production like the rear spatter paint and the multi-color cabinet stuffing. And that cabinet veneer? - - despite the mention of "WALNUT" on the label, could these possibly be teak veneer with a light walnut stain?
This just might be an opportunity to document the very first restoration for a pair of AR-16's in this forum - - there is much excellent info in the threads below but no evidence of a tear-down and re-build project. Particularly, I would like to see the backsides of these drivers (with part no. stickers, etc.) and certainly some pics of the sophisticated crossover. Apart from the typical restoration steps (woofer re-foam, cabinet finishing, switch cleaning, cap replacement), it appears the most delicate task will be to restore those Peerless tweeters as Giorgio has already noted.
http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?/topic/4351-information-on-ar-16-speakers/
Your AR-18s speakers are another matter altogether and could definitely use a major facelift. Although I've seen lots of aged vinyl "veneer" in various states on budget speakers, I've never seen the black front panel peel and wrinkle like yours have experienced. And just FYI - while this approach might not be your cup of tea, this thread shows my solution for dealing with unattractive cabinets - - - and there is tons of good info on the AR-18s from several enthusiastic owners.
http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?/topic/9699-ar-18s-speakers/
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Hi SteveB, and welcome to the forum. Please try to post a few pics (simple jpg files no larger than 100KB) of both pairs of speakers so that the advice you receive is well-advised and accurate. It is always best to be able to see the specifics of each project, and in this case, there were three versions of AR-18 (18, 18S, and 18B), and the AR-16 model receives very little attention in these pages.
Without yet having seen your speakers, take my comments with a grain of salt, but first, please clarify this phrase: "..woofers that are stuffed." One of the first things to consider with your proposed transplant is that, according to AR literature, the cabinet volumes of these two speakers are very different: 9.77L (0.35 cf) for the AR-18; and 18.0L (0.64 cu ft) for the AR-16. This would tend to suggest that a direct transplant might not be successful. And while all 8-inch AR drivers are physically interchangeable, it appears that the cabinet prep cut-out for the tweeters might be considerably different.
All versions of the AR-18 are great-sounding little speakers. All versions are also clad in vinyl, and most attempts at painting vinyl are recipes for disaster. I do have one lingering thought about preserving your AR-18's, but I'll withhold that suggestion until seeing the unique condition of your pair.
The AR-16 is somewhat of a rare bird - - I know I've never seen this model - - and not much of a marketing success. Its cabinet dimensions are more closely akin to the popular AR-4x, and while I believe it is probably a very competent small loudspeaker using excellent components, I suspect its failure (in sales) was most likely due to its unique styling that was inconsistent with other AR products from that era. Product literature claims it was available in "simulated walnut wood finish" or "walnut-grained vinyl".
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Oops, sorry Jack - - I did not see this listing before making my comments in the other thread. Good luck with the sale.
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2 hours ago, JBarakitis said:
I have a pair of AR4's for sale....
Hi Jack,
Despite the small cabinet glitches, those speakers look pretty nice and should be excellent candidates for a restoration project. Typically, these type of listings are presented in the Sell-Buy section of this forum. And while I am always enthusiastic about this speaker model and actually do have family in nearby Oregon, I cannot be tempted at this time even though your asking price is fair enough.
If possible, you just might draw more attention to your CL listing if you included "AR-4" in the subject line.
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Welcome to the forum, NN.
Because these are rare and valuable AR-1 speakers, I am going to suggest that you post several photos (front, side, rear) of these specimens before you even reach for the chemical stripper or sandpaper. Whatever you do, please do not try to make these "more of a walnut" if, in fact, they are not actual walnut veneer to begin with.
Also, what do you wish to do with these speakers? Use and keep them for decades, or put them up for sale in the online marketplace?
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Looks to me like that very well might be an alternate replacement for the dual drivers used in the AR-2 and AR-2a. The basket frame, accordion surround, and paper cone appear very similar, but obviously the dust cap and magnet structure have different materials and configurations. The original drivers had small alnico slug magnets, and it was not unusual for this type of magnet to be replaced with square or circular ferrite magnets during later productions of other AR drivers - - I'm thinking of the 8-inch AR-4xa woofer and the 10-inch AR-2ax woofer. I am unable to make any sense from the numerical markings - - I don't think they are date stamps - - but it's interesting to see the AR logo which was used with late 70's or early 80's speaker models.
Pic of original driver attached.
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I enjoyed seeing the order form for the books and the original grille cloth. These two AR booklets (see pic below) were later re-printed by Dover Books and can still be found in the used market. I also like seeing the AR turntable referred to as a "record player" in the Hirsch reprint. Thx for sharing.
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On 9/27/2019 at 8:00 AM, Golfer24210 said:
I inherited them from my cousin. He bought them new sometime around 1963 or so.
This sounds about right - - I think 1964 is the one and only year that is usually attributed to the AR-4's date of manufacturing. That really is a nice-looking pair of speakers.......and wow, only one owner! I would agree with some of the others that these speakers are somewhat rare. Except for a few oddball 4x's (dual cap version) that used this woofer, it was only used in the AR-4. The mesh-covered tweeter, of course, was also used in the AR-1x, 2x, and 2ax speaker models.
For me, it is interesting to note these serial numbers - - 06442 and 07156 - - because they fall right in line with a pair of AR-4's that I currently own with s/n 07162 and 07241. It seems quite likely that two of our speakers were assembled on the very same day. I have no idea where the sales numbers for the AR-4 topped out, but I see that Larry's AR-4's hover around the 11,000 mark.
I was just listening to these wonderful speakers last night during my favorite Friday night FM radio jazz program. The AR-4's, and a pair of AR-6's, are currently wired to a vintage Sony receiver (45w per RMS), and I often flip back and forth to compare the speakers with different musical pieces. Even with this jazz, the AR-6's are more extended in both low end (string bass) and treble (cymbals), but with this type of music I always prefer the AR-4's for the fuller midrange they present which is where I find a great deal of this musical enjoyment.
Regarding sales options, it's good to see you start with a post on the site - - your asking price is very fair. These speakers are sought after, so be patient. The audience here is larger and far more attuned to this product than you would find with your local Craigslist, but not nearly as large as you would find on ebay. If you don't get any nibbles here, perhaps another online site will get you more results. Just be patient - - if these have been in your family for 55 years, you'd like to leave them in the hands of someone who will care for them as your cousin did.
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12 minutes ago, lARrybody said:
I would use AR 91/58S drivers and crossovers and place them centered in line.
Great idea - - - that would be a very interesting project.
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I'm not quite sure who may be the best source for new foams, but you might want to read this recent thread on this exact topic. I cannot recall where I purchased the foams you see on my AR-7's, but I had at least eight 8" woofers to re-foam and I think I bought a dozen at that time. The foams you see on my AR-7's above have an inside dimension of 5.5 inches which is the equivalent of 140mm. You might consider contacting some forum members for a source in Europe - - I know there are people in England and Denmark and France with extensive experience with AR's 8-inch speaker models.
http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?/topic/10939-ar-surround-suppliers-who-to-use/
I would not be surprised if your AR-7's have the Sprague caps - - these seem to have found their way into many of the Euro production speakers from the Classic era, but I've never seen Spragues in AR-18's. Thanks for your feedback on the fiberglass, and we'll look forward to your progress as your projects move forward. With AR-6's, AR-7's and AR-18's, you've got a fabulous collection of small loudspeakers.
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Hi Giorgio - - - Both pairs of your AR-7's look very nice, and I like the fact that you have one pair each from England and Holland. Like yourself, I have two pairs of AR--7's, and one pair has woofer date stamps only a few weeks earlier than yours from the last weeks of 1972. Pics attached show this pair during re-foam restoration.
With your speakers, I am curious about two things. I would like to know if they used the blue 6uF Sprague capacitor; and I'm also interested to see the type of stuffing used inside the cabinets.
Yet another AR-4x rebuild
in Acoustic Research
Posted
Hi MikeD2,
It's a little difficult trying to follow all of your 4x questions in three different threads, but I hope something here might be useful to you. As far as re-furb'ing original pots, it's highly unlikely that only a spritz of Deox will be sufficient treatment to ensure long-term performance, despite its effectiveness at as an electronic parts cleaner. Quite often the metal parts develop extensive corrosion and/or pitting, and this can only be fully confirmed by complete disassembly of the pot, which is a mildly tedious process especially if it then leads into restoration efforts. Still, it is not unusual to achieve properly functioning pots after a thorough cleaning and re-assembly, but this usually depends on the extent of corrosion and the attentiveness of the re-build process.
If the pot re-build idea is not your cup of tea, go ahead and try the new L-pads. (BTW, AR-3a's will take two pairs.) During re-assembly of the speaker, you can conduct your own tests about whether or not to include the resistor, and if you initially decide to leave it off, it can be easily added later directly to the backside of the tweeter without removing the woofer and stuffing.
The re-doping of the woofer is usually not critical for the 4x because the mesh dust cap is intended to allow some passage of air. Nonetheless, I typically apply a light coat of Roy's goop to the 4x surrounds as I feel it helps to re-distribute the original butyl and refresh the suppleness of the cloth fabric.