AR surround
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Posts posted by AR surround
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11 hours ago, ar_pro said:
For replacements in the AR-9, you can use vintage upper-mid and tweeter drivers from the concurrent AR-90, AR-91, and AR-92 systems.
These are not to be confused with new "replacement" drivers available in several locations, as they're not the same.
I haven't looked recently, but good-condition individual mids & tweets were selling for about $100/each for a long time on eBay.
I thought that the UMR on the AR-90 was the same as that on the AR-9, but the one in the AR-91 and AR-92 is somewhat different even though it looks it the same. Is it that one can use the UMR from the AR-91 and AR92 in the AR-9/AR-90, but not the other way around?
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It's interesting that you got a huge variance from spec with those 6uf caps. I also got similar measurements with the 6uf caps taken out of my AR9's back in 2017. (See chart.) I'm suspecting that those particular caps had a serial defect.
Are you satisfied with the performance of the UMR given that you used an Erse poly film cap in the 24uf spot? I initially tried a Solens poly film cap, and then later added a F&F bypass cap, both which yielded horrid results. Then I went to a Jantzen poly with F&F bypass which was slightly better. Finally I gave up on using a poly cap in that 24uf spot and went to a NPE Mundorf E-Cap with F&F bypass. I'm extremely happy with the Mundorf E-Cap.
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Glad you got this! Even the classic AR's benefit from big amps. It was readily noticeable when I upgraded from 40 wpc to 200 wpc to drive my old AR5's. No doubt the 3a's are even more impressive.
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18 hours ago, lance G said:
with the option to remove the "ink" with iso propyl alcohol (or similar) to allow a return to originality.
This is a good idea Lance. But I think if I were going to go this route, I'd first try it on an inconspicuous area such as the bottom of the grill. Then I'd check to see how the isopropyl alcohol does at removing the indelible ink. If 70% isopropyl doesn't work, then 91% or even 99% denatured alcohol should certainly do the trick. But I would make sure that these higher concentrations do not damage the chrome finish.
13 hours ago, DavidR said:I kind of like the silver trim.
I know what you mean, David...You'd never remove the chrome from a vintage MG.
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On 8/11/2020 at 11:10 PM, DavidR said:
Who's this Frank Marsi guy ?
Beware as he's obviously lurking...like many of us.
On 8/12/2020 at 1:17 AM, frankmarsi said:Not sure but, he's got a whole bunch of stereo stories.
And I hear that in about 6 months or so he will celebrating his 'Golden Jubilee', for a 50th anniversary of using and listening to AR speakers.
Geez Frank, you're old! I won't have my Golden Jubilee until June 2022. And yes, they were my beloved AR5's which fortunately remain in the family.
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I have AR9's, AR90's, AR915's and AR48's. I prefer the AR9's by a large margin. They are driven by 200 wpc Lexicon amps...I wouldn't consider anything less as these speakers seem to need to be played loud in order to flourish. Of course, when listening in surround sound I get to use the 9's, 90's and an 915 as well! Occasionally, I'll swivel the chair around and listen to just the AR90's. I haven't listened to the 48's in years.
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On 5/29/2020 at 6:59 PM, DavidR said:
Here a pic of my 10Pi after I recapped. I used the Bennic caps but MDL also makes the 1000uF and 500uF caps.
David,
When I click on the photo link, I see nothing.
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On 2/5/2020 at 3:46 PM, r_laski said:
I read your AR-9 posts while preparing for my project. I actually purchased Mundorf 22uF and 1uF ECaps (couldn't find a 2uF) for the 24uF UMR and was going to experiment with them. However, when I measured new 22uF ECaps they measured 23.8/23.9. That’s almost 9% over rated value. It should be no more than +/- 5%
As DavidR said, I had my my Mundorf E-Caps all matched. (Remember that I am using AR9's as fronts and AR90's as surrounds, so I wanted all of the caps matched.) Carlspeak once told me that we probably cannot hear differences in caps unless the values differ by 15% or more. But some of us, including me, are more anal about it and prefer closer tolerances.
On 2/5/2020 at 3:46 PM, r_laski said:I had a similar experience of capacitor disaster with a pair of AR-90s. I reread a thread on a pair of AR-90s I worked on 16 years ago. I tried a combination of Dayton, Solen, and North Creek (no longer available) poly caps. It was very unpleasant, unlistenable. I replaced the Daytons with Solens and all was well.
Now that indeed is interesting because using Solen MKP on the UMR 24uF spot produced incredibly horrid results on my AR90's; and almost as bad on the 9s.
On 2/5/2020 at 3:46 PM, r_laski said:I've got more than 30 hours of listening to these "new" AR-9s. So far I am VERY PLEASED. I'm running them with all switches at 0dB. I haven't heard any need to "fiddle" with them. I will post any changes to my listening impressions as I spend more time listening. At most, I expect them to “warm up” only slightly more over time.
I'm very happy to hear that you are very pleased with the recap. I too would consider going to CSA Clarity, but the expense and time for redoing 5 speakers (2xAR9, 2xAR90, 1xAR915)...ugh!
On 2/5/2020 at 3:46 PM, r_laski said:However, if I move about 2 feet forward the sound stage really opens up. It appears to move a little forward toward me, but, more so it extends beyond the walls behind the speakers. Side to side it extends past the speakers to the corners and side walls of the room. Imaging, by that I mean separation and placement of individual vocalists and instruments, is much improved. This appears to be an acoustic sweet spot in the room.
I have experienced that as well. The stereo sound field is quite enveloping. When sitting in the sweet spot, the AR9s can produce what seems to be surround sound fed the right material.
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On 1/31/2020 at 10:58 PM, Stimpy said:
E-Caps. Wimp...!
Those ClarityCap CSA's will sound fine. They should make for a nice match. Warm and relaxed. But, a long break in period.
Yes, as many of you recall, those Solens ? beat me into submission!!
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Nice project r_laski. I too will be curious as to what you think of your "new" AR9's after you've listened to them for a while. I particularly had problems using poly caps in the 24uF series spot on the UMR and eventually went with Mundorf ECaps bypassed with 0.01uF F&F caps.
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12 hours ago, briodo said:
Today was spent measuring the caps on all 6 crossover boards, qty 2 AR58S, and qty 4 AR91. I included the replacement Dayton NPE replacement caps in the measurement test as well. No surprises. Collins were way out, Unicom had good and bad, the TI's were 3 for 4 within tolerance. My baseline assumption of 5% tolerance is acceptable.
I will be replacing all the caps on the AR91 crossovers due to age. However, my lesson on using Daytons (especially when doing series or parallel to reach target value) is to measure them before use. The 22uf I purchased all measured within tolerance without combining with the 2.2uf to reach the target 24uf goal for what I called C3.
results attached for those who appreciate measurements.
AR58S and AR91 Cap Value Measurements.pdf 30.98 kB · 7 downloads
I replaced the Unicon caps in Boston A70's with Dayton NPE's. (Note that there is only one cap in this 2-way Boston.) The result was not good compared to the Unicons...harsh mid/upper range. I had to add 1/2 ohm of resistance and a subsequently a Dayton F&F bypass cap to restore the tonal qualities of the speaker to my liking. I conjecture that the ESR of the stock Unicon capacitors is higher than that of the Daytons. Just communicating my experience in case you don't like the results with the Daytons.
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21 hours ago, ka7niq said:
The AR 9's IMHO are a failed design speaker because their dual woofers require they be right up against a wall. That kills image depth, though they did have a nice midrange.
I have never cared for the presentation of the AR9's when placed right up against the wall. Mine are both 5 ft away from the back wall, with the left speaker a foot from the left wall, the right speaker two feet from the right wall and both toed in. They sound great and I never have been disappointed with the bass in this configuration. My only complaint is that they seem to demand to be played loud to demonstrate their virtues.
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1 hour ago, ShaughtUp said:
I inherited a pair of LS9's from my dad who had a relationship with AR through his job at Columbia Masterworks, he was given also one of the very first quadrophonic systems by the company, a tall cabinet with AR turntable, the 2nd Advent cassette player and a reel-to-reel deck and 4 AR3a speakers. I also have 2 pairs of the little AR Powered Partner speakers of which I am inordinately fond, used hard, put away wet and still going strong 40 years later!
AR really liked your Dad. What great gifts! Oh and the quad system with four AR3a's has me drooling.
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1 hour ago, lance G said:
(Following further posted, as should have been originally, in "AR 9.Basic re-capping advice").
Thanks for all the help and suggestions from everyone.
All done (both speakers) with Mundorf E-Cap plain (other than the 2500uF and 470uF on the woofer circuit). Unfortunately I am not sure I like what I am now hearing. I have tested all the original sub 20uF Elcap cap's which were removed, of note the 80uF were of PYE (AR9EK, UK assembled speakers?) manufacture, (my multimeter cap testing facility only goes up to 20uF) and they all seem to be within tolerance. I think I preferred the original sound before I changed out (nearly) all the cap's. The choice of Mundorf was to try to keep to as close to the original specification as possible. The change was thought potentially wise due to the age of the original cap's.
The speakers were, when they came to me, apparently in somewhat remarkable condition for their age, I think week 34 1980 is marked on at least one woofer, and the crossovers were original with no physical signs of leaky cap's.
Observations please most expert chaps !
Try adding 0.01uF or 0.10uF Film and Foil bypass capacitors across the Mundorf E-Caps. These are cheap...on the order of a buck apiece. The shipping will cost more than the caps, so I suggest you by a few of each to see which ones you like. These will get that last ounce of grit out of the midrange.
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-dffc-001-001uf-400v-by-pass-capacitor--027-450
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-dffc-010-010uf-400v-by-pass-capacitor--027-452
Also, try adjusting the attenuation switches to -3dB on the tweeter and -6dB on the UMR. Keep the LMR switch at 0dB. Let us know how it goes.
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1 hour ago, DavidR said:
Anyone with AR90's think the woofer magnets are rather dinky like I do ?
Yes, they are dinky compared to those on the 12" woofers in the AR9. But they do seem to get the job done anyway.
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6 hours ago, DavidR said:
I ran pink noise signal thru them last night for a couple hours. Today they sound GREAT. The dark veil has been removed. They've really opened up. The twinkle is back in the tweeters.
Some pictures to follow soon.
Nice! Glad that you like the sound. What kind of sources have you been using? Any manipulation of the attenuation switches, or are you listening to them "flat"? And you know that I've been waiting since January 2017 for you to do this recap. LOL
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On 9/21/2019 at 11:19 AM, AR surround said:
...I've never heard the AR LST, and I speculate that it excels with all genres because of the multiple tweeters/midranges.
8 hours ago, xpat said:...I've never been fortunate enough to hear a pair of AR3a speakers nor the AR LST. Maybe someday my luck will change.
Maybe we can have a CSP convention at @frankmarsi house to hear his double stacked LST's. People probably would not want to leave and it would be like Woodstock with traffic jams up and down the street. LOL (Just joking Frank.)
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12 hours ago, ar_pro said:
The AR-91 crossover board is fairly easy to access for a cap replacement - removing the board (a miserable job) isn't really necessary.
I agree with ar_pro. Do the work in situ. Look at all the "stuff" I was able to put into an AR915 (UK version of the AR91) without removing the board. (I had a bunch of surplus 24uF Solen poly caps, so I cobbled four of them together to make a replacement for the 100uF NPE. Totally unnecessary as opposed to installing a new 100uF NPE, but as some on this forum are aware, I had a serious vendetta against those Solen polys.)
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20 hours ago, wsill said:
I am also experimenting with tip toes. Tighter bass and midrange with tip toes. Though can't move and you loose some of that "fat" bass.
I've always wondered about the need for these spikes. My AR9's stand on a carpet with thick foam base on a concrete floor. With my installation, I wonder how these spikes could possibly help because they aren't "coupled" to a wooden floor as they would if in the living room. Right? (That's one of the few advantages to having one's system banished to the basement.)
Also, regarding the foam around the tweeter, I installed some aftermarket felt from vintage-ar:
Did it make a difference? Perhaps, but if so it was subtle.
I never tried installing anything around the UMR. As I noted in another post, I'm extremely happy with my AR9's right now and hesitant to fool with them any further.
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9 hours ago, xpat said:
AR Surround
Sorry for not replying sooner.
First and foremost, I totally agree with you that moving the speakers can sometimes make a difference (sometimes a huge difference). In answer to your question, when I switched to the Type 4 cable, I tried to put the speakers back exactly where they were before the change. I've had these speakers since the 80's and probably have moved them in every conceivable space given the limitations of the room. Since the day I bought the AR9s, they always sounded somewhat sharp and forward in the midrange which would get tiresome after long listening sessions. In fact, the AR9s were not my "go to" speaker for classical music - instead I used my AR5s. (The sharpness may be due to a mismatch with my amp - an Adcom GFA 555 II. Amp sound is another topic for discussion). With the new cables, the sharpness was toned down considerably and the speakers sound much better.
I'm very happy with my AR9's since they've been recapped (Poly caps except the UMR which are Mundorf E-Caps + F&F bypass caps across all caps) and I went to fancy cables that were gifted to me. But the thing that made the greatest improvement was moving the speakers away from the walls and toeing them in a bit towards the sweet spot. That works for me in my room and listening location but it may not work for others.
Since the "digital age" I have never liked the AR9 or 90 with the UMR controls set at 0 dB. I prefer -3dB on the 9s and -6dB on the 90s. Even with the UMR attenuated, I still use a bit of EQ when playing classical music through these speakers.
Regarding the AR5's for classical music, I had a pair of them as well as AR3a's. My preference for classical music was always these classic AR speakers, but they are bit reticent for my taste when it comes to jazz/pop/rock. I've never heard the AR LST, and I speculate that it excels with all genres because of the multiple tweeters/midranges.
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On 9/12/2019 at 2:37 PM, xpat said:
I just upgraded my old speaker cables (Audioquest F14) to Audioquest Type 4. I bought the Type 4s because I like to move my speakers around and didn't have a sufficient length of the F14 to meet my needs. I didn't expect to hear a difference in sound, but was very pleasantly surprised. My AR9s are punching out more bass, high end details (cymbals etc.), and sound smoother. I always thought cables were in the realm of someone selling you snake oil. I guess your never to old to learn something new. Will probably use the F14s on the front home theater speakers and get rid of the zip cord.
xpat, I admire your set of balls bringing up this topic on this forum. Question: When you upgraded to the Type 4, did you first try the speakers in the same location or did you move them further into the room/away from the walls etc? Sometimes just moving the speakers a bit can make a noticeable difference.
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Here are some pics of the AR binding posts vs. the Parts Express offering as noted by DavidR.
The AR binding post will handle a banana plug, but it cannot be inserted all the way. That may or may not bother some people.
Both the AR and the Parts Express binding posts have a hole to insert a wire through it. The wire shown attached to the AR post is 16 gauge. That's the maximum gauge this binding post will handle, albeit with difficulty "threading the needle." The Parts Express binding post has a larger hole. The wire in the picture is 12 gauge. It will handle an even larger gauge if that is one's druthers.
Have fun!
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Regarding the binding posts, I always find the OEM posts on the 9 series to be a bit of a nuisance with either bare wire or banana plugs. With bare wire of reasonable gauge, I find that the nuts on the original binding posts are a bit narrow for adequate tightening of the wire...even with pliers. And as DavidR said, I found that banana plugs only go half way in. If you want to keep the original binding posts, may I suggest attaching spade lugs to the wire? It is much easier to tighten them down to the posts.
I prefer the Parts Express binding posts because they accept standard banana plugs properly. And I can simply remove the plugs when I want to move the speakers for cleaning. Your speakers, so you do whatever you want. (Finally, as @Giorgio AR says, production of the Parts Express binding posts is probably Chinese...but you should be OK as long as you don't eat them.)
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There are so many variables with speaker placement. I have probably made the most egregious of sins by pulling my AR9's away from all the walls and toeing them in. I prefer them positioned like this in my particular listening environment. The imaging, breath and depth of sound stage is tremendous and I have no complaints about the bass response. In a nutshell, just experiment to find the best sounding placement to your ears...and whatever won't get you thrown out of the house.
Acoustic Research 30th Anniversary Limited Edition AR9LS; Interesting ?
in Acoustic Research
Posted
Thanks for bringing this to our attention . One has to wonder how those domes get pushed in. It must be the handiwork of young fingers. The water damage doesn't look too bad...It doesn't seem like it was in a flood, but closer inspection is probably necessary. This guy isn't far from me, but with AR9's, AR90's, and AR91s in the house, I don't have the space.