Steve F
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Posts posted by Steve F
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Victor was well-known for his tenure at KLH, but he joined AR in 1975 as head of engineering and championed the intro of the ADD series (initially the 10Pi, 11, and MST/1.) I remember listening to him when he was a guest on Shop Talk (a 70's-era Boston hi-fi radio talk show) in the spring of 1976, extoling the virtues of the MST ("The MST can pump out bass like no 8-incher has any business doing!").
Victor was primarily responsible for the engineering efforts that went into the 1976-7 live-vs-recorded demonstrations with drummer Neil Grover and the 10Pi. That was quite a remarkable demonstration, as it demanded so much more in terms of power handling and HF energy response than AR's previous L v.R presentations. With very minor changes, the 10Pi's used for this demonstration were stock items, and none of the changes involved any of the drivers.
Victor told me that AR's primary objective in doing the Grover/10Pi demo was to prove that a relatively "conventional" 12-inch 3-way speaker could indeed recreate the effect of live music if it were properly designed, had verifiable, accurate response, and used rugged drivers of extremely high reliability. The 10Pi (and 11) had all the attributes needed.
Victor also told me that the 11 would have done just as well as the 10Pi (they used the 10Pi in the '2 pi' position anyway, the same as the 11 was), but they wanted the top-of-the-line model to get the "glory" of the success.
(BTW, the drummer was Neil Grover, NOT "Buddy Rich" as someone said on the Forum recently.)
Steve F.
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AR was "this close" to marketing the 3a Improved in the US in the spring of 1974, but had a change of heart at the last minute. With the 10Pi and 11 less than a year away, there would have been no valid reason to try to re-introduce a 3a variant at that time.
The same holds true for the 2xa, although as far as I know, that model was never even contemplated for the US market.
Steve F.
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There are really two separate discussions taking place. Let’s identify them and address them independently:
Discussion No.1—How to describe a 3a/LST/9 woofer for replacement of the surround:
The point was made that if someone were to ask for a generic 12" surround kit, they might be supplied with a JBL 12" surround that wouldn’t fit the AR 12" woofer because the JBL is too big. This seems at first glance to be a valid consideration, but if it’s thought through, the logic is specious. What the parts suppliers should do is identify what woofers their various surround kits are meant to used with. If supplier ABC has a surround kit for the 3a/LST/9, they should identify it as "Surround kit for AR 12-inch woofer." Calling it an "11-inch" woofer still confuses things in the customer’s mind, since no such woofer has ever existed.
Take the plight of Mr. Casual Customer. Mr. Customer has owned ARs for a long time. Now they sound a little "funny." He takes off the grilles, notices that the surrounds have rotted out and calls his friend, Mr. Stereo Expert. Mr. Expert says, "Hey Casual, it’s no big deal. What you should do is call Supplier ABC and ask for a re-surround kit. Just tell them what speakers you have, and they’ll send them out. You’re a handy guy; you won’t have any trouble doing the work yourself."
So Mr. Casual calls ABC and says, "I’ve got these AR-3a speakers. The owner’s manual says the woofer is 12 inches, so I guess I need a 12-inch AR surround kit."
ABC says, "Well, for your speaker, we have an 11-inch kit, not a 12-inch kit."
"Huh? My manual says 12 inches. I’m confused. Why do you want to sell me an 11-inch kit if my manual says 12 inches?"
See the problem? Misidentifying it as "11-inches" helps nothing and potentially causes confusion. As to the "JBL’s 12 inches is larger than AR’s 12 inches" argument, this is particularly vacuous. Every manufacturer’s parts are specific to that manufacturer. When you go into an auto parts store to buy an air filter for a Chevy 3.8-liter 6-cylinder engine, you don’t ask for a generic "6-cylinder air filter." You ask specifically for a Chevy 3.8-liter 6-cylinder air filter. The air filter for Ford’s 3.0-liter engine is still a Ford "6"-cylinder air filter, even though it’s smaller than the Chevy filter. We don’t all of a sudden refer to the Ford as a 5-cylinder engine.
The various suppliers should identify their surround kits by the woofers and brands with which they’re meant to be used. If they identified their surround kits as "AR 12-inch surround kit, for use with AR models 3a, LST, 11, 10Pi, 9, 91, 910, etc," there would never be any problem or confusion. They shouldn’t re-write history or try to be too clever. This isn't arrogance on our part. There is simply no upside benefit to Layne and others referring to the 3a woofer as 11 inches. No upside at all. But, a very definite potential downside. So why do it?
Discussion No. 2—What we call these woofers on this Forum
We should call them 12-inch woofers amongst ourselves, because we know better--right?
Now if you’ll excuse me, we’re having a houseful of people later on today for our annual Christmas Eve dinner, and if I don’t get down there to help my wife pretty soon, she’ll strangle me with those 11" surrounds.
Happy Holidays, everyone.
Steve F.
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Now that Tom has accurately recounted the developmental history of the AR 12" woofer in beautifully complete, correct detail, I'd like to add my opinion to this discussion with regard to the calling of this driver an "11-inch" driver.
Long-time members of this forum know that this is a pet peeve of mine, and for those of you for whom this is a repeat, I apologize in advance.
Herewith, then, is a re-run of two of my postings from almost two years ago:
">>#1751, "RE: Real McCoy ! New AR eyeball mid"
In response to Reply #0
>>11" Woofer part #1210003-2
Aren't we tired of outsiders calling the AR 12-inch woofer an "11-inch" woofer?
People should know better, for two reasons:
1. Industry-standard practice is to measure the frame diameter of a woofer, NOT the piston diameter or the surround diameter. Measured this way, the 3a's woofer is 12 inches. Any woofer--AR's, KLH's, Advent's, anyone's-- would be less than the formal measurement if you went strictly by piston diameter.
No one is trying to "get away" with anything or fool anyone. It's just the standard way that drivers are identified.
This leads to reason no. 2
2. AR had 10-inch woofers and 12-inch woofers. If some parts supplier insists on foolishly and inaccurately referring to an AR 12-inch woofer as an "11-inch" woofer, then there is the all-too-real possibility of a less experienced hobbyist ordering the wrong driver for their speaker.
AR called it a 12-inch woofer. For the sake of industry-standard practice, ordering accuracy, and historical consistency, the woofer should be called what it is: a 12-inch woofer. Period. People need to stop this nonsense.
Steve F.
#1756, "RE: Real McCoy ! New AR eyeball mid"
In response to Reply #5
The AR 12" woofer measures 12" across the wide part of the frame, 11.5" across the truncated section of the frame, 9.5" from mid-surround to mid-surround, and 8.5" from the inside of the surround (the actual "cone" diameter). Smaller drivers are correspondingly smaller. As I said, driver diameters are wider than the actual cone measurement, but this is just the way the industry measures drivers.
The issues with Layne and others calling the 3a/LST woofer an 11" woofer are these:
1) First and foremost, it serves no useful purpose. Calling the driver an 11" driver does not impart any new, helpful information to the end user. How do you benefit by Layne--or anyone else-- intentionally mis-identifying the woofer as an 11" woofer? The answer is, of course, you don't benefit at all. It's just bad information on their part, potentially misleading, and historically inaccurate.
2) It seems as if Layne and others want to demonstrate how clever and discerning they are by their "discovery" of the actual size of this well-known, historically-significant woofer. It's almost as if their thought process is, "Well, all you hobbyists out there THINK it's a 12" woofer, but we're the real experts, and we've discovered that it's only an 11" woofer."
It's so childish. Calling it an 11" woofer benefits no one, confuses the issue, incorrectly re-writes history, ignores industry standard measurement practices--all for the sake of what? Convincing themselves that they've "discovered" something? Padding their own ego?
I have zero tolerance for non-productive, wasted communication that imparts inaccurate data."
OK, I've said my piece. It's a 12" woofer. On this site, we know better. Case closed.
Steve F.
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Interesting--I bought my AR-2ax's from Fred Locke in Avon CT in 1971. They really didn't want to sell them to me, since they were pushing Infinity 1001's very hard at the time.
I got almost as much pleasure from buying AR speakers from a dealer who was trying to steer me away from AR as I did from the speakers themselves!
Steve F.
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"In mid-to-late 1970s, Advent brought out an improved version of The Advent Loudspeaker called "The New Advent Loudspeaker," and I think it was designed (or the improvements were engineered) by Andy Kotsados (currently CEO of Boston Acoustics). It, too, was a superb speaker for the price, and was available in walnut veneer or in a vinyl-clad utility cabinet."
Andy did design it. Andy's last name is, of course, Kotsatos, not Kotsados--probably just a typo!!
My recollection of the New Advent was that although it had a smoother and somewhat more refined sound than the original, it did not have the same mid-40's Hz system resonance as the original Advent. Thus, the "Advent value advantage" over AR--having 3a-class bass extension at far lower cost--was gone.
I think the AR-14 and -12 were superior speakers to the New Advent in terms of smoothness and musical accuracy. The AR ADD 10" models had slightly larger internal cabinet volumes compared to the previous-generation AR 10" speakers (the 2 series and the 5), so their deep bass extension was very marginally improved as well. The 12 especially, with its ferro-fluid cooled 2 1/4" cone midrange, is an excellent speaker and a terrific value.
AR8 DXi - tell me more :)
in Acoustic Research
Posted
The original AR-8 from 1973-4 was a 10" 2-way. It was not a particularly successful product.
The AR-8 B, Bx, Bxi, etc. series from the early-mid '80's was a 6.5" 2-way.
They were completely different speakers. Usually, a manufacturer will wait much longer than 10 years before reprising an earier model number or name. As an example, the Chrysler corporation is introducing a new SUV next year called the Aspen, fully 30 years after the ill-fated 1976 compact car of the same name. Chances are good that the 2006 Aspen's target market will have little or no recollection of the quality- and rust-plagued car that symbolized Chrysler's near-fatal problems 30 years ago.
But no one will ever accuse the 1970's-80's AR of marketing genius.
Steve F.