AR4 low serial number - restore them or leave them alone?

[Robthomp]

Hi,

I found a pair of AR4s on CL for not too much money so I got them.    I have read that the AR4 is less common than the AR4x.   I do a see quite a few 4xs on CL and the auction site, but not too many 4s.  These have low serial numbers 00204 and 00221. 

When I went  to get them I assumed I would be restoring them, but now I wonder what's more important -- getting them to sound wonderful, or keeping them original and untouched?  My 4xs, after restoration, sound incredible. This seller, who has a house full of amazing vintage items, seemed a little dismayed that I might tamper with these.  They certainly don't look like they've ever been opened - the grills are firmly stapled with many tiny, old staples.  They don't sound wonderful - there's nothing coming from the tweeters. I presume the caps may be bad and the pots corroded.   The grills are in good shape but terribly stained (although they're not as dark as they look in my bad pictures).  The cabs are pretty good, they would clean up nicely.   Getting the grills off without destroying the fabric seems like a challenge. 

I wonder what your thoughts are on restoring good sound vs. keeping a 'collectable' unmolested. 

Rob

[lakecat]

Rob....it makes no sense to leave them as is. I used a tiny, tiny flat screwdriver to get under the staple and pop up a little, and then removed with needle nose pliers on a pair of 2x's. Then slowly worked several three inch drywall knives under the grill to pop glue seams. Cleaned the grills and they came out nice. The value is having them work correctly.

[Robthomp]

2 minutes ago, lakecat said:

Cleaned the grills and they came out nice. The value is having them work correctly.

That's what I originally thought.  I just second guessed myself when this seller, who is not a hifi person per se, seemed a little concerned that I would monkey with them.

Thanks for the tip on getting the grills off - that seems like it will work. I guess patience is key.  How did you clean yours? When I cleaned my 4x grills I used Woolite fabric cleaner and it left some slight streaks and didn't get them much cleaner.

Rob

 

[ra.ra]

Hi RobT, that's a very nice find. I fully agree with Lakecat - - - in present state, they are not good for much unless you restore their functionality, and they are also overdue for a cosmetic facelift. Your suspicions about problem areas are most likely correct - - - work slowly and take great care finding and removing the staples - - a dental pick and a pair of needle nose pliers come in very handy for this task. It's not too difficult. Also, take care removing the woofers - - the cones and surrounds can be a little bit delicate. 

I have two pairs of AR-4's, including this one pair whose s/n's straddle your pair (XX105 and XX242). They looked nearly identical to yours, and underneath the grilles was 50 years of dust accumulation, as shown. The pots will require attention, and the caps (6uF) should most likely be replaced. Cabinets can be spruced up and the grilles can be refreshed, and eventually you'll have a terrific pair of rare great-sounding, vintage speakers. If I can locate the threads for my projects, I'll try to do so for you.

[lakecat]

20 hours ago, Robthomp said:

That's what I originally thought.  I just second guessed myself when this seller, who is not a hifi person per se, seemed a little concerned that I would monkey with them.

Thanks for the tip on getting the grills off - that seems like it will work. I guess patience is key.  How did you clean yours? When I cleaned my 4x grills I used Woolite fabric cleaner and it left some slight streaks and didn't get them much cleaner.

Rob

 

I clean the grills by spraying lots of Fantastic on them and brushing lightly with a soft brush. I then drop them in about three inches of shampoo water in tub...swish them around a little...and then run them under tub spout running warm water at full strength to clean them. Then I lay them flat on towel and add towel on top...and lay a board on them and add weight. I let that dry naturally. Comes out really nice. That tub water is usually pretty dirty so a lot comes out.

[lARrybody]

Rob I too just got a set of 4's on Friday. Got them from shopgoodwill.com. I don't think many people knew what they were the way they were listed. Not as low as serial numbers or as nice as yours, but definitely restorable.

  

One of the badges is missing, but I somehow have one in my badge collection that matches. Cabinets are no way perfect. Gouges, scratches, venere on front top edge of one coming loose, yet nothing that can't be corrected.

 

I have been wanting a set of AR4's to add to my collection of 2 sets of AR4x's and one set of AR4xa's. I am stoked. Now where are those AR3's?

[lARrybody]

Decided to take a look under the grills while i had them outside. Removed 13 staples (odd number) and the grills came right off. No signs of any glue that I could see.

My other 4 series speakers have replaced grill cloth. One Michaels Tea Linen, one Jo Ann's off white linen, and the other 123 stitch 18ct. lambswool. On these I would like to try Lakecats cleaning of the original material. I kept the material from the others, so I might be able to wind up with something presentable.

 

Looks like some kind of mildew on the cone. hey these have the criss cross and the flower design. Losing light and being called for dinner, so i will remove the other grill tomorrow.  

[ra.ra]

Wow, both of you guys have "new" AR-4's that appear to have never been opened, and IMO, the wear and tear of each pair is minimal and all fully restorable. And yes, both pairs appear to have grille cloths in a condition which is definitely good enough to first attempt cleaning and restoration before even considering cloth replacement.

Plenty of AR-4 info in these threads to answer a few questions and get up to speed. 

 

[lakecat]

11 hours ago, larrybody said:

Decided to take a look under the grills while i had them outside. Removed 13 staples (odd number) and the grills came right off. No signs of any glue that I could see.

My other 4 series speakers have replaced grill cloth. One Michaels Tea Linen, one Jo Ann's off white linen, and the other 123 stitch 18ct. lambswool. On these I would like to try Lakecats cleaning of the original material. I kept the material from the others, so I might be able to wind up with something presentable.

 

Looks like some kind of mildew on the cone. hey these have the criss cross and the flower design. Losing light and being called for dinner, so i will remove the other grill tomorrow.  

Please be careful when cleaning like I suggested. I was cleaning the AR2x's grills this weekend and the sides are thinner than what is on the 3a's, 3's...etc. I dipped it into the tub on three inches of water and when I lifted it to rinse under tub spout, one side bent and cracked...sigh. Sooo...maybe just spray, brush, and rinse under tub and pass on dipping in tub. I should have noticed how thin the sides are on the 2x but wasn't thinking. Not sure how wide the 4 grills are on sides.....so be careful.

[ra.ra]

Just my $0.02, but here is the thread describing the successes (and one failure) I've had when refreshing aged AR grille cloths. lakecats' method sounds like it has produced satisfactory results as well, but I would not be comfortable with the idea of fully submersing the Masonite grille frames. Having said that, all of my AR-4 grille frames are constructed from strips of softwood; therefore, no Masonite. 

Sidenote: my own observations have shown that the AR-4 cloth is slightly less dense (threads per inch) than what I've encountered with AR-4x's and later models, suggesting that perhaps the original is not authentically replaceable. 

 

[Robthomp]

Thank you lakecat and ra.ra for the advice about grill cloth cleaning, and congrats larrybody on the AR4's.  Ra.ra, that's a lot of great research on the grill cloth.   Here are two pictures I took, one of the grill cloth on these 4's I just got, and one of Wichelt Lambswool linen from 123stitch.  It looks like they have the same threadcount (~ 20 /inch) but the thread in the original cloth looks to be a smaller diameter than in the new stuff, so the amount of space between the threads appears to be greater.   I assume that would affect the sound wave passing through the cloth, but what I don't know is if it's a difference that people can hear. 

I went ahead and removed the grill on the first speaker. I didn't have a dental pick, but I tried a variety of small screwdrivers, tweezers and needle nosed pliers.   Unfortunately  as you can see in my pictures, the cloth is not unscathed.  In my defense, some of these marks, in particular the worst ones in the middle, were not due to my work, but simply are there because the staples were a little rusty and the thread was crushed under the staple, and so that's just the condition of the fabric with the staple removed.  I'm not too concerned, I managed not to rip any holes, and those marks may be a little less noticeable after I clean them.   A fifty year old object is bound to have some 'character'.

The drivers appear to be in great shape. There's hardly any dust, and the surrounds have some suppleness.

 

[ra.ra]

Hey, those are looking real good and thanks for the great pics. And I agree with you that a few battle scars give these things even more aesthetic character. With s/n's as low as yours, it's interesting to see that like the pair I showed, your woofers have neither the cross-hatch or the floral damping pattern painted on the cones, whereas larry-b's have both patterns (he probably paid more for that option ).

Once you peek inside, here is what you should expect to see. And the most important thing: the dated personal stamp from the assembler.

[lakecat]

I see your grill has wider sides than the 2x did so don't be afraid to clean them. My 2x was only slightly less then a 1/2" on sides near top.

[lARrybody]

Found some 4x grills in my parts collection and decided these will be good to test some cleaning techniques. This is what they looked like before I started.

I put them in the tub and used Soft Scrub Oxi, trying to avoid chlorine bleach. Brushed them liberally using a 1 1/2 in. paintbrush. Rinsed them  as lakecat described and let dry for a day. Better but not real impressive.

Took one and repeated the cleaning, this time using Soft Scrub with bleach.  Better result  but still not there yet. Good news is the wood frame and material  seems to have held up fine. 

That's a piece of 18 count lambswool behind them. Took a good look at my other 4x's and 4xa and the one with the lambswool looks the best. Not sure what way to go. 

RaRa about the woofer damping design. You don't get many options when you buy used. New I would of preferred bluetooth, programmable potentiometers and liquid cooled voice coils.

[lakecat]

11 hours ago, larrybody said:

Found some 4x grills in my parts collection and decided these will be good to test some cleaning techniques. This is what they looked like before I started.

I put them in the tub and used Soft Scrub Oxi, trying to avoid chlorine bleach. Brushed them liberally using a 1 1/2 in. paintbrush. Rinsed them  as lakecat described and let dry for a day. Better but not real impressive.

Took one and repeated the cleaning, this time using Soft Scrub with bleach.  Better result  but still not there yet. Good news is the wood frame and material  seems to have held up fine. 

That's a piece of 18 count lambswool behind them. Took a good look at my other 4x's and 4xa and the one with the lambswool looks the best. Not sure what way to go. 

RaRa about the woofer damping design. You don't get many options when you buy used. New I would of preferred bluetooth, programmable potentiometers and liquid cooled voice coils.

I don't use the tub water to clean in. I spray the grill liberally with Fantastic and then brush well....THEN....dunk and swish them around in three inches of warm water with shampoo added....then quickly rinse them under spout. Then I lay them flat on towel...with another towel on top...and add a piece of wood and weight on top. Let that dry completely. If I am in a hurry, I will get out hair dryer and dry them. I have used spray Spic&Span and Fantastic on the grill material....but the trick is getting them nice and wet and using s soft brush on them real well before dunking in tub....:) 

[ra.ra]

I think larry's progress on the right hand grille is coming along well. Aside from trying to prevent any warping of the grille frame, the biggest challenge with this process of trying to reclaim aged grille cloths is finding a balance between gradual lightening, in sequential steps, and assuring that the original fabric maintains its strength and structure. 

As previously stated, I was using a diluted bleach solution, and that possibly contributes to weakening the aged fibers, but on many grilles I have been able to achieve excellent results with careful applications and monitoring. In the one case where I obviously was not so careful by wetting the grilles one too many times, the tensile forces which occurred during drying resulted in the disaster shown here. 

 

[stupidhead]

oops

[ra.ra]

18 hours ago, stupidhead said:

oops

Yeah, no kidding, I guess it's me that deserves your online moniker. 

Anyway, this is just a heads-up to everyone to know when to stop futzing. I had these AR-6 grilles looking good already, then went too far and ruined them. 

[High current]

I too tried the the bleach thing only on a pair of 4xa grills only to have them fall apart as well. I would only use diluted bleach on small areas heavelly stained. I bought the cloth on eBay that's virtually identical to original. Great cloth ,but I found it too clean looking and even airborne dust can leave a permanent smudge. My solution was to quickly soak it in natural colored wood stain and pat it gently with a cloth to get all the excess off. Lay it flat to prevent wrinkles,let dry then cover frame. This gives it a great vintage patina that resists smudges

 

 

[ra.ra]

On 12/13/2017 at 4:17 PM, High current said:

....tried the the bleach thing only on a pair of 4xa grills only to have them fall apart as well. I would only use diluted bleach.....

Hey HC, good to see another new member post here. Bottled chlorine bleach is powerful and nasty stuff, and I certainly agree that any use of bleach for this purpose needs a significant dilution - - full strength out of the bottle is far too concentrated and the poor linen fibers don't stand a chance of surviving. Since I had been advocating this approach with good success, I also felt a need to disclose my one instance of miserable failure - - - which had less to do with the solution concentration and more to do with tension caused by fiber shrinkage while drying in the sun. I was just being greedy and stoopid - -  not the first time and probably not the last. I think my preferred dilution ended up being about 1:3 or 1:4.   

Please show us some pics of your 4xa speakers and particularly the grille cloth results. Posting pics in this forum is very easy - -  simple jpg files of less than 100KB are best, and it's just a drag-and-drop process.

[JBarakitis]

Gentlemen,

I have a pair of AR4's for sale, serial numbers F 04626 and F 04647. I am selling on Craigslist, Medford Oregon. 

I've been an EBay buyer/seller since 1999 with 100% positive feedback.

In the event anyone is somewhat local to the sale you will be very pleased with their condition.

Sincerely

Jack Barakitis

Edited October 6, 2019 by JBarakitis
Wanted to include additional info

[ra.ra]

2 hours ago, JBarakitis said:

I have a pair of AR4's for sale....

Hi Jack,

Despite the small cabinet glitches, those speakers look pretty nice and should be excellent candidates for a restoration project. Typically, these type of listings are presented in the Sell-Buy section of this forum. And while I am always enthusiastic about this speaker model and actually do have family in nearby Oregon, I cannot be tempted at this time even though your asking price is fair enough.

If possible, you just might draw more attention to your CL listing if you included "AR-4" in the subject line.    

[Mr Tuan]

i'm in vietnam and i also really like the AR speaker.  i have a few pairs of ar4x and i bought them from usa

[Mr Tuan]

[Mr Tuan]