Follow up ar-5

[stupidhead]

Here you go

[Phxjohn]

I think an orange dome tweet in an AR 5 makes more sense. Of course the Q1R's may have greater extension. I also love Klipsch speakers.  

[Phxjohn]

My favorite word is 'whatever' ! And that is not directed at anyone. We are discussing speakers here not the situation between North Korea and the more sane parts of the world. I have no idea who Chris is. Does he have a website ? What changed after all of these decades that now AR dome tweeters can be rebuilt ? Are there test results to view ? blah, blah,blah 

[ar_pro]

chris1this1 is a Forum member who also offers AR tweeter repair services:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?/profile/179217-chris1this1/

 

 

 

[onplane]

23 hours ago, Phxjohn said:

I will never understand why some people will hot wire the midrange. It has very strong output.

I just hope that the pair that I buy has tweeters with decent output. I never subscribed to the 'cardboard tube' test. I want audible output.

So my comments about the 5's in this thread were directly related to the fact that the OP stated that the level controls were bypassed. 

John, I agree with your comments about tweeter output.  I would like to take a minute to clarify the issue of "level controls were bypassed".  If you look closely at the pics, the controls were NOT by-passed.  Instead, someone took the lead normally attached to the wiper and soldered it to the top of the pot.  This is the same as setting the controls to their max position, back when the pots were new and there was no corrosion.  In short, the pots are still very much in the circuit.

Further, setting the pots to max is what AR did in producing the graph below (AR-3a's).  

As you can see from the graph, the tweeter output is muted.  Now, if you do remove the tweeter pot from the circuit as in a total by-pass, you will gain 1 to 1.5db.  Still not enough! ... as least for me, it was still muted on my 3a's.

What I eventually did is add a padding resistor to the mid driver and this knocks down the mid relative to the tweeter.  That's not all it does, however!  It also knocks down the mid relative to the woofer making a bass heavy speaker even more bass heavy!!

So to bring everything back into balance, I bi-amp and sent more voltage to the mids/tweeters via the mid/tweeter amp.  I did this nine years ago and still listen to my 3a's. 

So, I'm sure you are wondering whether it's worth all of the effort.  In my opinion the difference is tremendous.  For a control I also own a pair of AR TSW-610's with titanium dome tweeters.  When I started this project, the 3a's sounded dull and muffled compared to the 610's.   Today the 610 tweeters still out perform the 3a's, but NOT by much! I can hear the tweeters on the 3a's without the paper tubes whenever drummers hit the cymbals and ... hear very clearly.

There is an old thread here where I documented the voltage I'm sending to the tweeters and surprisingly it isn't that much.  Nevertheless, my black, 3/4" tweeters are now "seeing" far more voltage than they got nine years ago.  Fortunately, my den is small and I rarely listen above 2 watts so the strain on the tweeters is small.  

Frankly I don't think it's a good idea to "push" any of the 3a drivers given their age and here I credit Roy for his encouragement and recommendations to go easy on these old drivers.

Now, the 610's ... well that's another story.  AR clearly had power in mind in the design of these speakers.  These speakers you can push and you don't get the impression they are struggling at all.

 

[Phxjohn]

1 hour ago, ar_pro said:

chris1this1 is a Forum member who also offers AR tweeter repair services:

http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/IP.Board/index.php?/profile/179217-chris1this1/

 

 

 

Thank you very much. Now I have an idea of who Chris is and what he does. Thank you again. He must have a steady hand and good eyesight !

[Phxjohn]

24 minutes ago, onplane said:

John, I agree with your comments about tweeter output.  I would like to take a minute to clarify the issue of "level controls were bypassed".  If you look closely at the pics, the controls were NOT by-passed.  Instead, someone took the lead normally attached to the wiper and soldered it to the top of the pot.  This is the same as setting the controls to their max position, back when the pots were new and there was no corrosion.  In short, the pots are still very much in the circuit.

Further, setting the pots to max is what AR did in producing the graph below (AR-3a's).  

As you can see from the graph, the tweeter output is muted.  Now, if you do remove the tweeter pot from the circuit as in a total by-pass, you will gain 1 to 1.5db.  Still not enough! ... as least for me, it was still muted on my 3a's.

What I eventually did is add a padding resistor to the mid driver and this knocks down the mid relative to the tweeter.  That's not all it does, however!  It also knocks down the mid relative to the woofer making a bass heavy speaker even more bass heavy!!

So to bring everything back into balance, I bi-amp and sent more voltage to the mids/tweeters via the mid/tweeter amp.  I did this nine years ago and still listen to my 3a's. 

So, I'm sure you are wondering whether it's worth all of the effort.  In my opinion the difference is tremendous.  For a control I also own a pair of AR TSW-610's with titanium dome tweeters.  When I started this project, the 3a's sounded dull and muffled compared to the 610's.   Today the 610 tweeters still out perform the 3a's, but NOT by much! I can hear the tweeters on the 3a's without the paper tubes whenever drummers hit the cymbals and ... hear very clearly.

There is an old thread here where I documented the voltage I'm sending to the tweeters and surprisingly it isn't that much.  Nevertheless, my black, 3/4" tweeters are now "seeing" far more voltage than they got nine years ago.  Fortunately, my den is small and I rarely listen above 2 watts so the strain on the tweeters is small.  

Frankly I don't think it's a good idea to "push" any of the 3a drivers given their age and here I credit Roy for his encouragement and recommendations to go easy on these old drivers.

Now, the 610's ... well that's another story.  AR clearly had power in mind in the design of these speakers.  These speakers you can push and you don't get the impression they are struggling at all.

 

 

I do remember you from quite some time ago. As soon as you mentioned TSW-610. I will have to look those models up. I am not familiar with them. I am 'stuck' on the 3a, 5, 2ax,....that generation. I think it is because I was a teenager then and could not wait for the latest issue of High Fidelity and Stereo Review in the school library. And then of course the train trips into Center City Philadelphia to Wanamaker's or Sam Goody to hear the latest AR model. I know what you mean about how I used the term 'bypass'. I have to remember on this forum to be more specific. The other audio forums are more general. I do see the famous AR graph that you included and that is what that generation sounds like to me. I'm wondering...you must have had a reason....why did you put a resistor on your midrange instead of using the pot ? Was your pot shot ? I bought some rebuilt pots from Larry at Vintage AR and they have been fine. Of course, here in Phoenix nothing corrodes except for the residents. The rebuilt pots are in my AR 6's. My AR 3a's that I bought from Larry have L-pads and HiVi Q1R tweeters. The midrange on my 3a's are very strong. I don't know if they are seeing a stronger signal due to having L-pads instead of pots. But, I do not even have the L-pads up to the mid position. The replacement tweeters are very strong too. Same thing...about halfway on the L-pads position wise. I have not heard a pair of stock dome tweeters in decades. I would like to. I have no idea which I would prefer, the originals or the HiVi's. There is something to be said for originality whether I prefer it or not. Larry and I had quite some communication before I bought his Ebay offering with the HiVi's. I do prefer ample highs. I have an Ortofon Quintet Blue on my Rega. I noticed....it was hard not too...that cymbal strikes were explosive compared to my general long term experience. It (swapping out tweeters) is not something that I can easily explore as I cannot move my 3a's. I am not that strong anymore. I have been listening to AR's solely for a long time. I started with the little M1's, then 6's, then 3a's. That is since I moved to my co-op apartment. In my Phoenix townhouse, I had Klipsch KG4's. Before that, AR 7's and 2's. And KLH, Marantz, ...I really should get a different brand of speaker to A/B with my AR's. It is very easy to get used to a particular sound. My stereo dealer cannot stand older AR's. I would love a chance to hear the old orange dome tweeters, the black dome tweeters, and Chris' rebuilt tweeters. I guess for almost all of us, the only way to do that is to buy them. And if they have not just been rebuilt, who knows how strong the output will be ?.   

[lakecat]

I do have a pair of Chris's tweeters that he rebuilt for me but haven't had the time to test them against an OEM pair. Test won't be scientific but only seeing if I can ACTUALLY hear a difference. Not only did he rebuild the tweeter but upon damage to the driver boxes when shipped, he made a new driver boxes with a 3D printer with screw flanges being 25% thicker. The original screw flanges are on the thin side as we all know and have seen when removing the tweeters. I love that he is tackling a problem we have with the old AR's.

Roy did test his tweeters and approved them. I looked for his post on them but can't find it so hope I didn't dream that!...:)

[Phxjohn]

You didn't dream it, I saw the post. It is amazing that someone (Chris) is able to do the rebuilds. I will be looking forward to your impressions after listening. 

[onplane]

On 9/7/2017 at 0:11 AM, Phxjohn said:

I'm wondering...you must have had a reason....why did you put a resistor on your midrange instead of using the pot ? Was your pot shot ? 

My pots were a very ugly green color. When you get corrosion this bad, it's my experience the root cause is dissimilar metals in contact with current flowing. (This is a major headache for all of us boaters. We even use huge sacrificial anodes to protect the metals we consider important.)

At the time, I knew I was heading in the direction of bi-amping so I wanted a more permanent solution. Basically what bi-amp does is it moves those voice controls from the back of the speakers (those constantly corroding pots) to the volume controls on the two amps. Volume controls can also need cleaning (well some do - modern digital controls do NOT), but it's far easier to clean these than opening the AR's and messing with those pots.

Then the other huge advantage is you get far, far more control with amps than you get with pots plus it's much easier to vary voice at will.

 

Regards,

Jerry

[RoyC]

On 9/7/2017 at 0:11 AM, Phxjohn said:

The rebuilt pots are in my AR 6's. My AR 3a's that I bought from Larry have L-pads and HiVi Q1R tweeters. The midrange on my 3a's are very strong. I don't know if they are seeing a stronger signal due to having L-pads instead of pots. But, I do not even have the L-pads up to the mid position. The replacement tweeters are very strong too. Same thing...about halfway on the L-pads position wise. I have not heard a pair of stock dome tweeters in decades. I would like to. I have no idea which I would prefer, the originals or the HiVi's. 

I would love a chance to hear the old orange dome tweeters, the black dome tweeters, and Chris' rebuilt tweeters. I guess for almost all of us, the only way to do that is to buy them. And if they have not just been rebuilt, who knows how strong the output will be ?.   

Phxjohn,

To address some of your comments and questions:

-Your 3a's have stronger tweeter and mid output due to Larry's crossover preferences. His L-pads do not use the parallel 25 ohm resistor to bring the performance closer to the original pots. He also uses the original 6uf tweeter capacitor value, and reverses the HiVi tweeter's polarity.  In my 3a restorations I prefer the use of a 25 ohm parallel resistor with the mid when using L-pads, along with a decrease in the tweeter cap value. I also prefer to not reverse the tweeter's polarity. This results is an overall ("warmer") response closer to that of the original configuration.

-Chris' rebuilt tweeters have no shortage of output, and I am inclined to recommend them or the HiVi's over the old orange dome tweeters for consistency and reliability. The orange dome tweeters have no sonic advantage over either, imo.

-I agree with ra.ra regarding the difficulty of installing an AR-5 mid in the 2a cabinet. It simply won't fit without major cabinet cutting...and if it did fit you would need to construct the AR-5 crossover to make it work. After all, the 2ax is essentially the AR-5 without the AR-5 mid and requisite AR-5 crossover.

If you have further questions and require a more personal or quicker response, feel free to contact me through a forum PM.

Roy

 

 

[Phxjohn]

Thank you Roy. The idea of an AR 5 mid in a 2ax was just a fleeting idea. The difference between Larry's configuration and yours explains why I set my level controls....to be honest ..more like a third or quarter of the way from off.  I do NOT like the way they sound with the level controls at even halfway. I wondered about that. It explains a lot.   

[duvel]

osted 1 minute ago · 

The sound after restauration is verry good. the problem with the bass has disappeared. I can not say if it was the sealing or the pots or maybe the new caps. I drive the ar-5 with a small trio 18 watt  tube amp and the sound  is wonderful with plenty of bass. There is is a small difference in volume between the two tweeters is this normale ? I fix this with the pots. 

[Phxjohn]

17 hours ago, duvel said:

osted 1 minute ago · 

The sound after restauration is verry good. the problem with the bass has disappeared. I can not say if it was the sealing or the pots or maybe the new caps. I drive the ar-5 with a small trio 18 watt  tube amp and the sound  is wonderful with plenty of bass. There is is a small difference in volume between the two tweeters is this normale ? I fix this with the pots. 

Duvel,

I have not read this entire thread so I am assuming that you have original tweeters. They are very old and many have weaker or no output. As long as you can match the volume between the two tweeters AND the tweeter output is loud enough for YOU then I would say it is 'normal' and you are fine.