Breaking Down Classc Speakers !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest SteveG]

I am wondering if others are also concerned about the number of ebay listings we have been seeing where people are obviously breaking down classic AR speakers and selling them for parts. It is a bit disturbing to see that people are actually getting much more for the separate parts in total than if they sold the complete speaker.

Surely some of these speakers may nees some cabinet repair or driver replacement. But if this continues there will be a "thinning of the herd." Those of us who own multiple sets of classic AR speakers may feel this will ultimately result in higher value for our complete systems, and this also gives us access to a supply of original parts to stock up on. But watching this forum it seems clear that all participants think a lot more of these classic speakers than potential resale value. I think we wold all like to have more rather than fewer folks still enjoying these speakers in another 30 and even 50 years.

One possible strategy might be to resist buying these canabilized parts. If the price folks got for them was less than for the whols system, then perhaps this breaking down of these fine old instruments would lessen.

Anyone else share this concern, or have thoughts on how to keep it from expanding??

SteveG

[johnieo]

Recently, I purchased a 3a pair containing ceramic magnet woofers. It is clear from the serial numbers that they should have contained Alnico woofers. Likely someone switched drivers and sold the originals on eBay? Perhaps not dishonest if advertised as is, but does raise ethical questions.

[Guest Droog]

A reason to part out speakers also is the cost of shipping a complete pair across the country...$35, $55. All parts sooner or later end up in a complete unit and it is nice to find that driver you need. AR's still keep surfacing out of storage so I think the ratio of speakers to collectors is ballanced Although I would hate to see a scarce speaker in perfect condition torn apart, like an early AR 1, plus I think anything with a very low serial number should be left intact.

[Guest Bret]

Steve,

I’m of two minds about this issue. On the one hand, I agree with you. On the other, we can’t get replacement parts for speakers we own anymore.

I’ve looked at loudspeakers from both sides now, from selling and buying, and still somehow, it’s dollars and cents on which reliance falls to really restore speakers at all. (sorry)

I bought a pair of AR-92s. They were dropped in shipping, broke a midrange, and goofed-up the vinyl cabinet. Being a restoration neophyte, after buying replacement drivers and finding them “different” than the originals I decided to part them out. I don’t believe I got as much for them as I paid (including shipping) and ended-up selling some of the parts to a guy who had a pair of 92s in need of a midrange and original woofers. I gave him the grills and the foam inserts (his were rotten). So, while the pair I parted-out were gone-forever, the pair he had were restored. The total number of “original” AR-92s didn’t change.

On the flip-side, someone parted out some brass-badged 10pi’s (believe that or not) and so I emailed him about the cabinets. Eventually he sold me the cabinets [from storage/garage] in need of repair for $100 plus shipping. I was able to buy one original midrange and one replacement from an internet dealer. Then I got one original and one replacement tweeter from someone who frequents this forum. I bought new grills from ABTech and took the cabinets to a local guy who replaced veneer and cleaned-up the finish otherwise. By the time I’m finished, I’ll have more than $1,000 in this pair of 10pi’s. I’m still waiting for the opportunity to buy one original midrange and one original tweeter. Then I’ll sell the replacements.

My point is; I could have bought a couple pairs of 9s for the money I’ll have in these 10pi’s. If I were to sell them, if eBay is any indication, I could only get $500 or so for them. How many times can any of us afford to do that? How many people would be willing to spend over $1,000 to get a “clean” set of 10pi’s?

But if people weren’t parting-out their speakers I’d have no opportunity to rebuild these.

And then there is this: How many models really warrant preserving for posterity?

Just thoughts. . .

Bret

[Guest dogmeninreno]

If you guys and or gals would follow this link, http://www.transgroup.com/AboutUs.shtml You will be suprised how inexpensive that these monsters can be picked up and shipped to anywhere in the world. It will require that you become a "known shipper" which at no cost is only a quick background check because of the 9-11 disaster but I ship around the globe for 1/3-1/2 the Fedx and UPS rates. South Korea for example cost me less than $180.00 to ship a pair of AR-LST's. AR9 pair from NH cost $165.00 to Reno Nv. door to door. I buy ,restore and sell pinballs and slot machines and these guys are great. Dale in Reno.....

[roundhome]

Hello I have a pair of LST IIs that I have been trying to get 6 tweeters for. for over a year now. but get out bid for them on ebay.

I just passed up a pair of AR5s for A 100.00 that I could have taken the tweets and mids out of but could not see stripping A good pair of speakers. but not sure what to do exept put something else in for tweets and this would be just as bad.

so for some it is the only way to get the classics fixed right.

But I don't agree with taking a good speaker apart just to sell the stuff for a higher profit. In my case if there were the correct 8ohm tweeter new, I would just buy them.

It might help if some one could sugest replacement parts for at least the tweeters that would work. like the Dynavox d2801xl It will fit and is 8 ohm but that is as far as I can say no expert here.

There are those that will do what they want no matter what and as long as the peaple will buy the parts they will take them apart.

Not sure I helped any but it is my 2cents.

Jim

[Guest Bret]

>You will be suprised how inexpensive that these monsters can be picked up and shipped to anywhere in the world<

I did follow your link. I think it's a great link. Next time such a thing comes up I'll definitely see what I can see in detail about this outfit.

Looks like something we ought to know about.

Bret

[Guest dogmeninreno]

On the flip-side, someone parted out some brass-badged 10pi’s (believe that or not) and so I emailed him about the cabinets. Eventually he sold me the cabinets in need of repair for $100 plus shipping. I was able to buy one original midrange and one replacement from an internet dealer. Then I got one original and one replacement tweeter from someone who frequents this forum. I bought new grills from ABTech and took the cabinets to a local guy who replaced veneer and cleaned-up the finish otherwise. By the time I’m finished, I’ll have more than $1,000 in this pair of 10pi’s. I’m still waiting for the opportunity to buy one original midrange and one original tweeter. Then I’ll sell the replacements.

Bret, I have one original AR11 tweeter that is in excellent shape. I also have an original Midrange but it reads open. I have reparied AR3 and 3a mids but have not tampered with this one yet. Let me know if you are interested?? Dale

[Guest dogmeninreno]

> Hello I have a pair of LST IIs that I have been trying to

>get 6 tweeters for. for over a year now. but get out bid for

>them on ebay.

> I just passed up a pair of AR5s for A 100.00 that I could

>have taken the tweets and mids out of but could not see

>stripping A good pair of speakers. but not sure what to do

>exept put something else in for tweets and this would be just

>as bad.

>so for some it is the only way to get the classics fixed

>right.

> But I don't agree with taking a good speaker apart just

>to sell the stuff for a higher profit. In my case if there

>were the correct 8ohm tweeter new, I would just buy them.

>

> It might help if some one could sugest replacement parts for

>at least the tweeters that would work. like the Dynavox

>d2801xl It will fit and is 8 ohm but that is as far as I can

>say no expert here.

>

> There are those that will do what they want no matter what

>and as long as the peaple will buy the parts they will take

>them apart.

>

>Not sure I helped any but it is my 2cents.

>Jim

>

Jim,

Larry (ar-pro on this forum) has indicated to me that the 4 ohm tweeters will work fine in the LST-2. I am looking for 6ea 8 ohm tweeters also. He also indicated that the 8 ohm units are not suitable for replacing 4 ohm units. Layne Audio had some 6 ohm tweeters but they require a mounting plate. I bought a dozen from him about a year ago (when we could still reach Steve). Nice units, sound great in a set of AR5's! Dale

[Guest SteveG]

Bret,

Quite a story on the 10pi's. I guess one question is, if you had known that putting these back together would end up costing $1,000, would you have bought the cabinets from the guy in the first place?? I am guessing yes, probably because you are looking at this as much as a labor of love as a business opportunity. I have reworked a pair of 3a's and a couple pair of 11's, and I know what you mean about the cost of every little thing---adds up.

Here, though, is an example of the issue. I bought a rough pair of 11's on ebay on March 21 for $114 plus $33 shipping via Fedex. That's $147 total. Mids and tweets fine, woofs need surrounds. No grills. A couple places with cabinet damage, but I like wood working and was able to handle those myself. Results wont be perfect, but very presentable.

On the samer day, March 11, someone sold on ebay parts from a pair of 11's. These were mids fopr $81 plus $10 ship, tweets for $104, plust $10 ship, and logos for $25 plus $2 ship. That's $232 total, or $85 more than I paid for the complete speakers. I am not complaining, but am saddened to think what happened to the cabinets and xovers? If they fell down a flight od stairs and are toothpics that's one thing. But if they are out in a land fill just because the parts could be sold separately for more that is a real shame. True, 11's are not AR 1's. But they are veneered, great sounding speakers, and have been referred to here in this forum more than once as the ultimate version of the 3a.

Just to add insult to injury, 9 days later on March 30, someone else parted out another pair of 11's, and got $79 for the mids, $64 for tweets, and $41 for xovers (complete withn plate and back controls and speaker terminals). Now with the complete xover boards pulled out, we know what happened to these cabinets.

The only thing I regret Bret is that you didn't some of these components for your 10pi project. I believe that the only difference in the drivers between 11 and 10pi is that the tweet cloth domes were yellow/gold on the 10pi rather than black.

I would hope that the whole community, not just us,but some of these parter-outers would consider keeping the cabinets, at least. Bret, I think I was in touch with the same guy you got the 10 pi cabinets from---Chicago as I recall. he had sold all the drivers, and I emailed about the cabinets. He said he'd be back to me after the auction. even though I later emailed him he never really responded. I figured someone else got em, congrats---and hope on balance you are not unhappy you did.

This whole thing reminds me a lot of what a lot of folks do with older cars. Many try to restore them "with matching numbers". This is not a way to make money, but more a hobby. I applaud the effort you have taken on the project of reclaiming these 10pi's, which the joker in Chicago should never have broken down in the first place. But if some 11's are to provide their drivers for transplants, hopefully we can keep the 11's cabinets around to stick some of these later reproduction drivers into for a "daily driver."

A tough call which AR speakers are worth keeping for posterity. I think Mark has kind of made a call possibly on this site, referring to speakers through 11, 10pi, 9, 90 as classics and later stuff not. I know I have a perfectly servicable pair of 58s's that are walnut veneer, 12" woofers, and same mids and teweets as in the 9, but I dont look at then the same way as I do the 3a or 11. So I'd kinda like to think we would try to preserve all the intact examples of speakers through Mark's "classic" designation we can.

Great discussion on this topic as usual!!

Thanks

SteveG

[Guest Bret]

>Here, though, is an example of the issue. I bought a rough pair of 11's on eBay on March 21 for $114 plus $33 shipping via Fedex. <

I didn’t know it was you, but yeah, I know. . . mine was the next bid down. :-)

>were mids fopr $81 plus $10 ship, tweets for $104, plust $10 ship, and logos for $25 plus $2 ship.<

I hadn’t checked eBay® in several days. When I looked at the “completed auctions” and saw those midrange drivers I just about lost it. I can’t write here the single, staccato, word that came out of my mouth.

I think we may be doing pretty-much the same maths. When I see 11s sell for little of nothing, I get kinda emotional about it. The adding-up I do is, “Is there any way I can restore these and resell them and not lose money?” It’s not a matter of profit, I just can’t afford to be too philanthropic.

With the 10pi’s I’m going to listen to them, hopefully for the rest of my life, but *maybe* I’ll be tempted to give them to my son and hopefully he can enjoy them for the rest of his life. (Boy, thinking that way is sure pessimistic - it assumes that nothing incredibly superior is engineered for many years.) Anyhow, the idea is that while money is definitely an object, this wasn’t a “commercial venture” since I am going to keep the 10pi’s and since I really wanted brass-badged ones.

I saw the parts on these 10pi’s, too, but again, too late.

It’s very interesting that you brought this up at this particular time. I’m having a “discussion” with my listening-buddy about parting-out a pair of 90s. He’s looking at the trouble of packing these (no original boxes) and is figuring it’s too much trouble when he can part them out and probably end-up with the same or more money and save himself the hernia and the heartache. I’ve agreed to help him pack them and get them too a shipper if he’ll sell them intact. He’s not all that thrilled, though, because of the cost of boxes, etc and I only have “so much” influence with him.

Bret

[Guest SteveG]

Bret, Really great to hear of your thoughts on this---so similar to mine. I read your comment just now as I am listening to Stan Getz Sweet Rain on the latest 11's I got (even over LST's for the moment.) They are up and running right now only because I had a spare pair of woofers I got from Tom a while back.

With 2 pair of 11's now plus too many other speakers I am at risk for having nowhere to sleep.

Thanks for mentioning your need for the 11 components, I will keep an eye out and let you know if I see any omore up there.

Sorry for bidding at the end on the earlier 11's. I had just come in from out of town. If it is any solace, I bid earlier today on the latest 11's up for auction, and someone I don't recognize jumped in in the last minute. But that seems to be the norm on ebay.

Hope those 10pi's are all there soon. But sounds like they are already in full enjoyment mode right now.

Bret, by the way, what do the grill foams for these go for at AB Tech, and do you have their number?? I was thinking of just making something up or even just enjoying the speakers without grills. Layne is at $39 each which seems a little much for something that adds nothing to what the speaker is there for!!

Steve

[Guest Bret]

>But sounds like they are already in full enjoyment mode right now.<

Ken’s got the woofers. I’m in no hurry. I’ve got my 9s, 17s, & 2ax’s to listen to; plus the friend's 10pi's and 90s. ;-)

>what do the grill foams for these go for at AB Tech,<

I paid $78.00 for the last ones I bought, but I don’t remember if that included shipping. On the other hand, I consider the foam grills to be as important as the veneer, aesthetically speaking. AB Tech is on the website.

Toll free: 1-800-225-9847

Local: 1-508-478-9800

Fax: 1-508-478-9816

Email: abtechservices@mindspring.com

>someone I don't recognize jumped in in the last minute<

I looked carefully. It was like the last few seconds.

Bret

[Guest dogmeninreno]

>Jim,

>Larry (ar-pro on this forum) has indicated to me that the 4

>ohm tweeters will work fine in the LST-2. I am looking for 6ea

>8 ohm tweeters also. He also indicated that the 8 ohm units

>are not suitable for replacing 4 ohm units. Layne Audio had

>some 6 ohm tweeters but they require a mounting plate. I

>bought a dozen from him about a year ago (when we could still

>reach Steve). Nice units, sound great in a set of AR5's! Dale

Correction. Vintage-ar not ar-pro.

[Guest Brian_D]

This happens any time an interest becomes a "hobby." That is, the larger consumer marketplace holds no value for the original other than it's replacement value.

It's been going on in a much larger scale in the auto industry for ever. I can buy a MINT 1978 Triumph Spitfire 1500 for under $4,000. (Restored of course) but to replace just the engine and tranny with rebuilt units would cost exactly that, if not more. Does that mean that the other very valuable parts are worthless? Of course not. It just means that the marketplace for this car holds the value lower than the cost of it's parts. (the sum is lesser than the whole?)

Of course I crigne when I see "parts" on ebay, and wonder about the originals, but it's really good news for me personaly, who is looking for some parts.

It's sad, true. I feel the same every time I see a body panel for a Triumph out there in the world, or websites that brag about their availability of parts, when you know darn well those parts came off a perfectly restorable car.

[Guest audioslave]

>

>>what do the grill foams for these go for at AB Tech,<

>

>I paid $78.00 for the last ones I bought, but I don’t remember

>if that included shipping. On the other hand, I consider the

>foam grills to be as important as the veneer, aesthetically

>speaking. AB Tech is on the website.

I gave a friend who owns a small foam production company one good 10pi grill. He's trying to duplicate them as we speak. If he's successful the price will be much lower than $78.00. I'll update with price info when I hear from him. Let me know if there's any interest and I'll order extra.

Jeff

--He's also making up some tweeter foam for the 10pi's and 11's. Anyone need these?

[Guest Bret]

>He's also making up some tweeter foam for the 10pi's and 11's. Anyone need these?<

I need two pair and I suspect *several* others will, too.

Bret

[roundhome]

Hello This would be great I could use 10 each for the AR 9 mid and tweeter if this is something he would like to do for us.

Jim

[Guest SteveG]

Hey this sounds great!!!

Please count me in for at least a pair of the grills, and a pair of the tweeter foams. Especially if the quality is good and the price is as reasonable as you suggest!!!

Thanks.

SteveG

[Guest audioslave]

I should be receiving the grill samples soon. The only concern he had was the inside of the grill...he wasn't sure he could make a die for it. I'll know more today. I have made a couple of my own tweeter rings and they work fine. They don't have the white graphics, but they do make the tweeter look much better! I'm working on making foam prototypes for the 9's, for the foam for mine are long gone. If anyone has a good set that they're willing to donate, let me know. I'll only need one from the tweeter and one from the mid.

Jeff

[Guest Brian_D]

Does the 10pi have the same kind of foam grille like the AR 17's?

If so, I would be willing to "donate" one of my original grilles, provided a replacement could be made, or I could get the original back in original condition.

I am in need of 4 of these grilles, and I'll be willing to bet many others are as well.

[Guest Bret]

>Does the 10pi have the same kind of foam grille like the AR 17's?<

The foam is the same, but the dimensions are radically different, of course. And the 10pi's (11s) have indentions at each driver. . . and a raised circle in the middle of the woofer (on the underside).

Bret

[roundhome]

I just picked up a black LST that had been on ebay before and did not sale. I'm vary good at restoring wood products . and have another LST crossover and enough drivers for a secound cabinet. could not see If this one did not sell again it would have been scrapped our parted its a early front wired one. will see how it looks when it gets here the hard part will be the cloth for the grills I should be able to make a set of grll frames. I just hope the tweeters make it through shipping with no grills on them.

saving another old AR!

Jim