AR-2ax cabinet refinishing questions

[Robthomp]

    This is my first time restoring a pair AR speakers.  (AR-2ax from around 1970).  Right now the cabinets are empty as I await new capacitors, a foam surround kit, and a tweeter repair, and I am preparing to restore the finish. I'm a little unclear how to proceed and I have a few questions.  How do I tell if the cabinets are mahogany veneer or walnut veneer, and does it matter?  I'm going to close the gaps at the edges by using wood glue and bessy clamps.  I thought I would patch the bad spots on the edges with an epoxy filler.  For the surfaces should  I sand? They look pretty bad, but I'm afraid of sanding through the veneer.  Should I just attempt to use Howard's Restore a Finish with steel wool first to see if that's adequate?  Its really only the bottom of one cabinet that's scratched, and the tops of both that have water marks and a few rings.  The sides aren't that bad except (except for some black stain that may or may or not come out.) 

The cabinet that's not pictured is is in better shape than the one that is.

Finally, if I do use Howard's, can I then use Danish oil on top of that?  I heard that Howard's has wax in it, which would seem to suggest you can't follow it with oil/varnish.

Any advice would be appreciated.  

Thanks,

Rob

 

 

 

 

 

[lARrybody]

Welcome to CSP Rob. You are in the right place. Everybody here is very helpful. I also have restored several pairs much like yours. There is a member here and also at Audiokarma.org that does wonders with cabinets like yours. Look for post by GD70 and you will find a ton of very well documented information on how to proceed. Good luck with your AR2ax's and keep us updated on your progress. Other knowledgeable members will be chiming in soon. 

 

[Robthomp]

3 hours ago, larrybody said:

Welcome to CSP Rob. You are in the right place. Everybody here is very helpful. I also have restored several pairs much like yours. There is a member here and also at Audiokarma.org that does wonders with cabinets like yours. Look for post by GD70 and you will find a ton of very well documented information on how to proceed. Good luck with your AR2ax's and keep us updated on your progress. Other knowledgeable members will be chiming in soon. 

 

Thanks! I will search through his posts.  Also, since I'm new to this forum I have a question about protocol.  When people discuss different, independent aspects of one restoration project, for example one day they're thinking about how to get the pots working, and the next day they're thinking about refinishing the cabinets, do members prefer to see those as separate threads, or is it better to just have one thread covering all aspects of a particular restoration? I'm just wondering what people find more convenient or if it even matters.

[JKent]

14 hours ago, Robthomp said:

How do I tell if the cabinets are mahogany veneer or walnut veneer, and does it matter?  I'm going to close the gaps at the edges by using wood glue and bessy clamps.  I thought I would patch the bad spots on the edges with an epoxy filler.  For the surfaces should  I sand? They look pretty bad, but I'm afraid of sanding through the veneer.  Should I just attempt to use Howard's Restore a Finish with steel wool first to see if that's adequate?  Its really only the bottom of one cabinet that's scratched, and the tops of both that have water marks and a few rings.  The sides aren't that bad except (except for some black stain that may or may or not come out.) 

The cabinet that's not pictured is is in better shape than the one that is.

Finally, if I do use Howard's, can I then use Danish oil on top of that?  I heard that Howard's has wax in it, which would seem to suggest you can't follow it with oil/varnish.

Welcome Rob!

The AR-2ax is a wonderful speaker and worthy of restoration. I assume you have consulted the AR-3a restoration guide (if not, be sure to do so).

Larry mentioned Glenn (GD70), who does near-miraculous cabinet repairs. When you look at his posts you may be either inspired or daunted. IMHO epoxy works fine. You can use JB Weldwood, tinted with Mixol #22 Tobacco. Or have a go at veneer patching. Your cabinets are walnut and yes, it does matter if you try to match veneer.

Try to clean the wood as well as possible using mineral spirits or lacquer thinner, then sand but be VERY careful! veneer is unforgiving and if you go through it you're SOL. so yes--be afraid. Be very afraid. Be especially careful at edges, where your sander can tip a bit and go too deep. Better to sand too little than too much. On your cabs maybe a quick pass with 220 grit, followed by 320 or finer. Water stains are tough--I've been meaning to try oxalic acid but haven't done it yet. After sanding and attempting to get the stains out you may want to apply a slightly darker stain or use the Dark Walnut Howard RAF. Just wipe it on with a cloth, no need to use steel wool if you've sanded.

I contacted the folks at Howard some years ago regarding using Watco Danish Oil on top of their product. I've lost the response but I can tell you I do it all the time and it works fine. Another possibility would be to use wax over the RAF, such as Howard Feed n Wax. Just don't use any hard finish like varnish, poly or lacquer.

-Kent

 

[genek]

I think it's almost certain those cabinets are not mahogany. Walnut is the most likely, but there's so much damage it's hard to tell. One of the images made me think cherry, and one had me wondering if it might be pine. But I don't think the 2ax was ever made with the one unfinished surface, so I'd discount that impression.

I think these are too far gone for any finish restorer, and you're going to have to sand.

 

[lakecat]

Yikes!.....those are in pretty bad shape. It is walnut. Before you start sanding, do you own a steam iron? There is so much staining and cross grain scratches, you will have to lift a lot of this stuff out....rather than sanding. Before I would start anything though, I would pour the wood glue into those corner cracks....I mean pour it in...and then clamped it overnight. It may close some or none at all depending how long the cabs have been like that. The glue will still help some but if it still has gaps, I would fill with a walnut epoxy. Sold in tubes.

Now...after that is done, is to get a bath cotton towel that you don't care if it gets ruined and soak it with water until fairly wet. Lightly wring it out and lay on one side of cabinet. Now take the steam iron filled with water and at highest setting, run it across the towel slowly over the cabinet side...as you push the steam button and just really steam the piss out of the cabinet. The towel will start absorbing the finish and steam will lift scratches some also. After several minutes of steaming, remove the towel and lay it on other side and repeat.....until all four sides are done.

Next, go back to the first side you done and without towel....steam the cab side again.....running the iron over the veneer and pushing that stream button often. Doesn't matter if water is on cab as you run the iron over the cab as it helps lift. Just thirty seconds of doing this steaming should be enough but you will see dark material around the iron. Set that cabinet aside on its back and do other. Let them dry overnight and most of the next day.

Next.... take utility blades used in utility knives and now scrap in the direction of grain of the veneer. Keep blade at a 90 degree angle and use it like a small planer. You will remove the cells that have been raised on the wood and will see a fine line of sawdust as you scrap. Scrap the veneer until you feel it is somewhat smooth to feel. Clean the cabinet well after doing all sides. Now you are ready for sanding.

Next.... apply 220 paper to an orbital sander and slowly sand a side at a time. You can concentrate on the cross scratches and you will find them much more easily to make them disappear as you have lifted the cells as much as you can. The only places to watch while sanding is edges but 220 is hard to burn through veneer if careful. After complete sanding, wipe with tack cloth completely. They are cheap so use a lot of them. Dust is now your enemy....:)

Now you are ready for Howard's Restore in walnut. Apply liberally and can work it in on any still visible scratches with steel wool always rubbing in the direction of grain. I have a stain rag for the Howards and work everything in using it fairly heavy.....and then let it dry overnight...without wiping anything off. Next day, I lightly rub with steel wool and wipe down completely......and apply a light second coat of Howards. I let that dry for several hours and then wipe down with microfiber towel....and then set it to dry for several days.

I finish with poly but that choice can be yours with any finish.

[JKent]

Rob,

Don't be discouraged. That doesn't look so bad. And you did say your pics were of the worst damage, everything else is good. 

Having said that, Lakecat has some very good advice about gluing the seam, steaming out gouges and scraping the finish. Some minor disagreements:  I like to use finer sandpaper after the #220 and I wipe the Howard RAF off after a few minutes. Howard specifically states NOT to leave it on more than a few minutes because it could "bloom" back out. Now my major disagreement: Never never never use poly over RAF--check the Howard web site. And never use poly on AR speakers. The original finish is oil (boiled linseed oil) and Watco is basically a new and improved version of BLO.

And just a note on the use of RAF: I like it and I use it, but it is NOT a stain. Take a look at their Q&A page http://howardproducts.com/questions-answers/    If you have sanded the entire speaker--all surfaces--down to bare wood, use stain, not RAF. The Howard product is good in cases where there may be some of the original finish left but on raw wood use stain and/or tinted Watco oil. btw--many of us like to add a touch or red to make the walnut look richer. This can be achieved by using a stain such as Gunstock or by using Mahogany Watco Oil, or if using RAF use the Mahogany.

-Kent

[Robthomp]

Thank you all for the detailed advice. I did read the AR-3a guide before I got started. It all started to make more sense once I got into the actual speakers and I could see what they were talking about.  I've read through it multiple times now, along with a number of posts on this site.  

I guess my pictures are sort of jarring.  For some reason the speakers don't look quite that bad in real life, and the other one,  not pictured,  is better off. Having said that, there are a lot of scratches on the bottoms, stains on the tops, and dings on the edges.  

I've looked at some of Glenn's posts, and his skill with the veneer repair is very impressive.  I don't think I'm quite up to that yet, and I'm not sure how easy it would be to obtain matching veneer pieces, so I think I'm going to go with Kent's method of J B Weldwood with the tint and see how that goes.  On a future set of speakers, and I hope there will be a future set,  I may try the veneer repair.

I'm definitely going to try Lakecat's steaming technique. It's amazing how dramatically wood reacts to water.  I once got an 1/8th inch cup out of a board I wanted to use for a project by putting a wet towel and an iron it for ten minutes. 

Kent, if after sanding I decide to go with a stain and not use RAF, is there a particular stain product you recommend?  After that, I think I will go with the Watco oil. 

My older brother bought these speakers in Hong Kong around 1969 when he was in the Navy. He brought them home,  I was a kid and I was in awe of his stereo.  He had a nice Pioneer amp, Teac  tape deck, and Dual turntable.   At some point in time he gave the speakers to me, I used them for a few years and now they've been in my attic for the last twenty.  A few weeks ago I was thinking how nice it would be to have vintage stereo equipment and I remembered the ARs. 

Rob

 

 

 

[genek]

Color versions of RAF contain a dye, but Howard doesn't provide any info on its color fastness. So I wouldn't count on any color it applies to last. 

I lean toward dye stain rather than pigmented, especially on darker wood that has light streaks in its grain. Pigmented stains don't do as good a job of evening these variations, and if you put them on heavily enough will obscure grain. OTOH, if you have lots of damage that you can't sand or bleach out, obscuring the grain can be a good thing.

 

[lARrybody]

Wow, some very good opinions here on how to proceed. I am sure you are getting a good idea  of what is involved. Now for my 2 cents. Using wood filler may be the way to go. Just remember that filler won't take stain or finish the same as the veneer. The JB Weldwood tinted with the mixol Kent mentioned is just about the best stuff to use. Luckecat's steaming process is paramount, but it seems you already have experience with this.  Sanding is defiantly needed. Just remember that veneer is thin and pay attention to the edges, go lite there. It is easy to get carried away with a orbital sander. If you have the time and the arm using a sanding block could be a option. I would start with 220 grit and finish with 320. Keep the sandpaper and surface clean. Finishing, now here is where I get opinionated. Forget about the Howard's Restore a Finish.  Good stuff, but not here. I prefer the Watco Natural, because it probably is close to the original oil finish and it looks fantastic. The Minwax Gunstock stain may be a good choice before the Watco, but I just like the natural. If you use the stain do two cotes and lightly sand between. Using the tack cloths and keeping the surfaces clean is mandatory. I know they are going to look good. Here is a pair with a 1970 build date done in eight cotes of Watco Natural finish. Any imperfections just give them character.

LarryinIN

 

[lakecat]

9 hours ago, JKent said:

Rob,

Don't be discouraged. That doesn't look so bad. And you did say your pics were of the worst damage, everything else is good. 

Having said that, Lakecat has some very good advice about gluing the seam, steaming out gouges and scraping the finish. Some minor disagreements:  I like to use finer sandpaper after the #220 and I wipe the Howard RAF off after a few minutes. Howard specifically states NOT to leave it on more than a few minutes because it could "bloom" back out. Now my major disagreement: Never never never use poly over RAF--check the Howard web site. And never use poly on AR speakers. The original finish is oil (boiled linseed oil) and Watco is basically a new and improved version of BLO.

And just a note on the use of RAF: I like it and I use it, but it is NOT a stain. Take a look at their Q&A page http://howardproducts.com/questions-answers/    If you have sanded the entire speaker--all surfaces--down to bare wood, use stain, not RAF. The Howard product is good in cases where there may be some of the original finish left but on raw wood use stain and/or tinted Watco oil. btw--many of us like to add a touch or red to make the walnut look richer. This can be achieved by using a stain such as Gunstock or by using Mahogany Watco Oil, or if using RAF use the Mahogany.

-Kent

Yes, I am the rebel...lol. I love Howards as a stain. I have had excellent results and poly wasn't used in the past as it wasn't around then....or it would have been. It is easy to spray and much more durable than that oil...especially when a coat of paste wax is applied later. I have had AR3a's that were refinished four years ago and still look new....with none of the warnings you proclaim. I get top dollar for the speakers I refinish so I stand by what I have done and said.

Many people use Howards on an existing cabinet to get it to look decent.....not removing anything...and of course you would not use poly over that crap. Many warning by manufactures are the result of our "litigation" society. Hell, if you read the cautions on the medications many take, you would never want to swallow one of those pills!...:)

 

[JKent]

Hey cat

I don't agree that AR would have used poly had it been around then. There were other hard finishes such as the stuff (varnish maybe) on KLH Model Five speakers that turns yellow with age and looks pretty bad. I wouldn't hesitate to use poly on those after stripping and staining. And the KLH Model Eight radio was lacquered. Funny-- I recently got an indignant note from a guy who said I was ruining Model Eights by lacquering them--he thought they were originally oiled.

And I don't want to get into the whole restore vs preserve controversy (we could end up in the kitchen!). Rob will have to make up his own mind but my advice is for oil.

You make the point that RAF is used by "many people" right over the existing finish to get it to look decent. That's exactly what it is intended to do and it may be the reason, as you suggest, why Howard advises against applying a finish over RAF.

An aside to Rob: If you browse the threads here you'll see that Lakecat does really nice work, so the proof is in the pudding. I'll stand by my opinion that poly should not be used on classic AR speakers nor should it be applied over RAF but the cat, as I said, does good work so you'll have to decide what works best for you.

-Kent

[Robthomp]

I wasn't thinking of finishing them with poly.  I have a memory of what they were like when I was a kid and it was definitely more of an oil finish and I guess I'm hoping to recreate that. Poly is great and I've used it all my life, but for these speakers I think I want to try the Watco product which I have heard so many good things about.  

[Robthomp]

Hey all,

Well, I finished refinishing the cabinets.  That was quite a bit of work – and a great adventure, I learned quite a lot. Now I want to learn more about vintage furniture restoration.

Thank you to EVERYONE for all the great advice.   I

 

11) Glued and clamped the separated seams

22) Used JB Weld Quikwood + Mixol #22 to patch dings and dents

33) Steamed with an iron and scraped with a blade

44) Sanded, first with orbital 220 grit then by hand with 320.

55) Stained one coat with Old Masters American Walnut

66) 4 coats of Watco Danish Oil,  natural. 

77) Painted the baffles with an oil based flat black.

 

Patching the dings with the epoxy was much harder than I thought it would be. I would say there’s definitely a learning curve with that stuff.  I don’t think I did a professional looking job, but hey, it was my first time. 

 

I couldn’t get all the deep scratches and stains out.  The steaming and scraping was amazing in terms of how much it got out, without taking the veneer off.  Thank you Lakecat for the detailed instructions on how to do that.  The sanding further helped but at some point I had to stop because I really didn’t want to sand through the veneer.  Let’s just say that the deeper scratches and stains give the speakers their unique character.  

 

I did some research into various brands of stains, learned a little about pigments vs dyes, and sampled a few colors on some test pieces of walnuts.  I chose the Old Masters American Walnut because on the test piece the color seemed to match the original color very closely, and it has a slight hint of red in it, which looked nice.  On the cabinets themselves it came out a little darker than I expected and perhaps wanted, and the grain doesn’t quite pop.  However as Genek pointed out, maybe with that many scratches and stains you want something with a little more coverage.   

 

I’ve also included a pic of one of the refoamed woofers.  The replacement surround didn’t have as large an outside diameter as the original, so there was a band of aluminum exposed.  I painted that with the flat black, which looks better I think.

I got a little more information from my brother.   He didn't buy the speakers in Hong Kong after all. He bought all the other components of his system there, and he knew he wanted the ARs, but they weren't available at the moment.  So he waited until he got stateside, 1970, and he took his little brother (me ) with him to a stereo store in downtown San Jose.   He was an electronics technician in the Navy and he knew audio.  He said ARs were known to have the flattest response of any speaker available.   He also said that even when new, the pots felt scratchy and bad. 

 

Rob

 

[JKent]

Great job Rob!

Before & after shots are like night & day. You can call the little dings that remain "patina" 

Keep us posted as the work progresses!

-Kent

[Robthomp]

1 hour ago, JKent said:

Great job Rob!

Before & after shots are like night & day. You can call the little dings that remain "patina" 

Keep us posted as the work progresses!

-Kent

Thanks Kent.  The marks tell the speakers' story. 

[lARrybody]

Man oh Man Rob, you need to give yourself a pat on the back. What a transformation. I know exactly what you mean about  "Learning a lot". Your speakers are probably going to be around for many years to come. Can't wait to see them finished. Looking good so far.

[ra.ra]

Really nice color on those cabinets, and I agree that a few blemishes always add character. Interesting to see that your pair has the foam woofer with the wide basket flange that fits the earlier 6-bolt cabinet. Great work!

[lakecat]

Nice job!...:) Those cabinets were rough and to get them as nice as you did is awesome. Lot of work for those little cabinets no?...lol. I call the leftover marks..."history"..and makes people realize they have a story to tell.

I have used Old Masters stains in past on some antiques I have done and am surprised their walnut comes out that red...strange.

 

[Robthomp]

Well, I finished the rehab of my AR-2ax's!  That was quite a project.  Thank you again to everyone for all your help.   I

1) restored cabinets

2) re-foamed woofers  (thank you Roy!) 

3) cleaned pots (lot of work)

4) replaced caps

5) sent tweeters to Chris for restoration (made an huge difference, probably doubled the output)

6) replaced grill cloth

The speakers sound wonderful.   It's been a long time since I've had speakers of that quality in my home.   They reproduce sound with astonishing accuracy and clarity at all frequency ranges (that I can hear anyway - my hearing is not what is used to be - probably too many rock concerts when I was in high school and college).   The bass is amazing.  Playing a jazz CD, it sounds like the bass player is live 5 feet away from me.    But I don't have to tell you all this - that's why you're here.

I can't wait to get my hands on another pair of ARs.  I'm on the prowl.  I walked into a GW a week or two ago and nabbed a really nice pair of Wharfedale's for $20, and I nabbed a nice Dual turntable at a yard sale for $35 a few days ago, so I know all that stuff is out there, just waiting for some TLC.

Wait, one last detail - does anyone know where I can get AR-2ax badges, either original or replicas? I think I've seen that mentioned here somewhere.

Rob

 

[JKent]

WOW. Great job. And this was your first try! And now you're hooked  Join the club!

btw--what did you use for the grille cloth?

-Kent

[Robthomp]

2 minutes ago, JKent said:

WOW. Great job. And this was your first try! And now you're hooked  Join the club!

-Kent

Yes, hooked.

[ra.ra]

Very nice work, congrats.

Re: badges, the AR-2ax employed two different badges: one is square (maybe 1-1/8"?) with black printed lettering (AR Inc), and the other is rectangular with incised burgundy lettering (AR-2a^x) as shown. While this notion is probably not perfectly consistent, I tend to think the early (cloth) 2ax's used the square badge, while the later (foam) 2ax's used the rectangular badge.

[Robthomp]

19 minutes ago, JKent said:

WOW. Great job. And this was your first try! And now you're hooked  Join the club!

btw--what did you use for the grille cloth?

-Kent

Kent, for the grill cloth I just followed the recommendation in the AR-3a restoration guide - it's the Wichelt 18 count Lambswool color linen from 123stitch.com.  It looks pretty much identical to the original grillcloth to my eye. 

[JKent]

Rob

That's what I thought but wasn't sure from the photo. The Wichelt 18 count is really nice.

I have reproductions of the square AR INC badge Robert mentioned. Please see this thread and send a PM if interested

I have not been successful in having repros of the rectangular badges shown in Robert's post. Ebay seller Vintage AR has some repros that some people like; they're brass over red plastic. Personally, I don't much care for them but YMMV. Also just watch ebay for originals. They're solid brass so even if you see some that look all tarnished and dull you can polish them up nicely.

-Kent