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AR3a woofer Simply Speakers Recone Kit


Larry K

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Greetings, All

 

As a first-time forum poster, I have a question that I hope someone has experience with.  Like many of us, I found a pair of AR3a's at a yard sale, and in need of restoration.  As part of the project, one of the woofers would simply need a new surround - done, and with no problems.  The other had been driven with the damaged surround, and you know what that does to the voice coil former - crunched!  This one needed replacement, and at the time (1995) I thought I had found a "factory replacement."  Order, installed, and checked. . . but in A/B tests it didn't seem to have quite the bass of the other.  I did keep the frame of the replaced woofer.  Not too long ago, I came across the superb article, "Restoring the AR3A," by Champagne, et al.  That's when I discovered all AR3A woofers are not created equal!  First, the replacement was a later version with a higher resonant frequency - that tells me about the bass deficiency.  Having read the aforementioned article, it was easy to identify the original woofer as a 72-74 model, with the P/N being 200003-0 (which covers a broad span of years).  I also came across the Simply Speakers-offered recone kit, offered as able to restore the woofer to original performance values.  So, to the question -  Does anyone have any experience with using this kit to rebuild an AR woofer to the original cone resonant frequency of 16Hz or so?  There's no point in buying the kit if it won't better the performance of the existing (AR manufactured) replacement woofer.  Thanks for any "words of wisdom" that anyone would want to share!

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2 hours ago, Larry K said:

I came across the superb article, "Restoring the AR3A," by Champagne, et al.

Welcome Larry

RoyC (Champagne) will, I hope, address your question. The short answer is no--you can't rebuild an AR woofer to original specs with the available recone kits. But Roy is the expert on this stuff (and I could be wrong. Maybe the 72-74 model can be rebuilt).

Kent

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3 hours ago, Larry K said:

Greetings, All

 

As a first-time forum poster, I have a question that I hope someone has experience with.  Like many of us, I found a pair of AR3a's at a yard sale, and in need of restoration.  As part of the project, one of the woofers would simply need a new surround - done, and with no problems.  The other had been driven with the damaged surround, and you know what that does to the voice coil former - crunched!  This one needed replacement, and at the time (1995) I thought I had found a "factory replacement."  Order, installed, and checked. . . but in A/B tests it didn't seem to have quite the bass of the other.  I did keep the frame of the replaced woofer.  Not too long ago, I came across the superb article, "Restoring the AR3A," by Champagne, et al.  That's when I discovered all AR3A woofers are not created equal!  First, the replacement was a later version with a higher resonant frequency - that tells me about the bass deficiency.  Having read the aforementioned article, it was easy to identify the original woofer as a 72-74 model, with the P/N being 200003-0 (which covers a broad span of years).  I also came across the Simply Speakers-offered recone kit, offered as able to restore the woofer to original performance values.  So, to the question -  Does anyone have any experience with using this kit to rebuild an AR woofer to the original cone resonant frequency of 16Hz or so?  There's no point in buying the kit if it won't better the performance of the existing (AR manufactured) replacement woofer.  Thanks for any "words of wisdom" that anyone would want to share!

Hi Larry,

The kit offered by Simply Speakers and others (there is only one wholesale kit supplier) will take the woofer even further away from the response of the early version. The cone is much too light and stiff, and the spider is less compliant. If your original cone is still salvageable, there is a voice coil, spider, and surround that will bring the woofer very close to your goal. Unfortunately, these parts are not available through retail sellers. Using these parts I have rebuilt a number of them for myself, "Vintage AR", and some forum members. Send me a PM if you wish to discuss options.

Roy

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12-2-16

Like a squirrel in the autumn, I have pursued and bought many AR 12 inch woofers for the very fear of not having a replacement when I need one.

Most in the know will tell you, there is no other woofer quite like the AR 12 inch woofer no matter how primitive it might appear in its manufacture.

My stockpile now has varied since last count but, I still must have at least 16-18 woofers on tap in case of dire emergencies. There’s even a couple that were either blown or I was too young to know how to fix them, nor were there any re-foam kits at the time.

I found them down in the darkest recesses of my parents home when I emptied and sold it. Obviously I had forgotten them.

I took those along to my newer digs and will hold them as parts donors but no, I'm not letting them go.

What Roy is speaking about is not doubt correct although when another member asked a similar question here a while ago I too had posted the current newer VC/spider alternatives.

Ultimately I will trust "Roy’s" opinion as I know it makes sense and is true. There is nothing like the original AR woofer even among newer woofers made today. Perhaps your journey to 'AR-Ville' has just begun?

These AR woofer units are not only a dying breed, they’ve actually passed into other time zones at this point and have become rare and or MIA.

It all equates to the newer and re-issues of vinyl records. I have many newly purchased records along with a few re-issues of what I already have simply to compare to see if they’re better. 

I must sadly report that many if not all of the duplicates that I have, the original releases are generally much better than the newly re-issued versions.

More troubling is, I must give into the fact that much of the greatness of the last century is being replaced one item at a time. It’s only natural even though it irks me to no end. 

Millions of violins have been made since it debut but, there is only one Stradivarius.

The future is, as it’s always been, anyone’s guess.

FM

P.S. Have I ever heard an “Stradivarius" in person? No, of course I haven’t however, I have a rare LP that is going for crazy prices on the web of “Bach” concertos played by “Salvatore Accardo" where’s he’s actually using a ‘Strat’, his own and it does seem to sound sublime and more moving of the spirit in its quality of sound. 

I still luckily retain a few of friends from my youth and only one or two understand my ‘craziness’ when it comes to my vintage audio affliction. That is until I assault and pummel them with my vintage system and make them believers. One fella even dropped to his knees in respect to 'the system', I kid you not. And Roy you met him with his AR-2ax’s upstate a while ago so if you like contact him, he has the same name.

Yes, I owe it all to the love of music and the AR 12 inch woofer. The AR mids are my most loved also, though some strangely feel differently about them. 

I listen to a lot of violin music and AR mids do it for me. I’d like to hear other brand of mids but, why bother, I’m sold.

 

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P.S. Have I ever heard an “Stradivarius’ in person? No, of course I haven’t however, I have a rare LP that is going for crazy prices on the web of “Bach” concertos played by “Salvatore Accardo’ where’s he’s actually using a ‘Strat’, his own and it does seem to sound sublime and more moving of the spirit in its quality of sound. 

You must mean "Strad". Most violins have four strings, a "Strat" always has six. ^_^

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24 minutes ago, ar_pro said:

P.S. Have I ever heard an “Stradivarius’ in person? No, of course I haven’t however, I have a rare LP that is going for crazy prices on the web of “Bach” concertos played by “Salvatore Accardo’ where’s he’s actually using a ‘Strat’, his own and it does seem to sound sublime and more moving of the spirit in its quality of sound. 

You must mean "Strad". Most violins have four strings, a "Strat" always has six. ^_^

Surely you jest? Should I call out the violins for you now or later?

It's the violin that was not doubt honored by Fender when they named their most popular guitar the "Stratocaster". Well at least that's how I figure it. I used the term 'strat' and yes you caught it. My trying to be humorous apparently is misleading and has failed, good-gosh.

You're correct, I do need a proof reader, money has been tight. Let me get back to "Stern" and "Perlman". And no, there's no 'a' in Perlman, fussy.

FM

P.S. Some unrelated reading?  http://www.strat-talk.com/threads/gibson-stradivarius-violin.168430/

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From The Stratocaster chronicles: Fender : celebrating 50 years of the Fender Stratocaster
>Where did the name "Stratocaster" come from?
> Don Randall: Well, I named all those guitars. "Stratocaster" sounded sort of like it was the next step up. We went for Broadcaster up to Telecaster, and we wanted a name that kept the same theme, a similar ring to it. I wanted to reach up the ladder, so to speak, aim high. There were other products out on the market with "strato" in the name. People seems to like "Stratocaster so we stuck with it.

 

Randall was one the founders of Fender Musical Instruments Corp. and named most of the classic products designed by Leo Fender.

 

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I stand corrected but, easily can deal with it and admit it. A minor point nonetheless.

I know one thing for certain and that’s how great ‘the system’ is sounding rite now with Perlman (with one ‘a’), thank you.

I’m getting out of here before I break a string or get complaints from.............

I entertain the ‘string-theory’ though. I just don't have all of their albums.

 

I do notice that violins can draw many watts. That I am certain of, well at least at high and realistic volume levels for which I haven't a problem as I always like it real.

No sense in my spending all of this time and money on equipment, especially MC cartridges and accessories if it doesn't sound real or 'it ain't got that swing'.

Sorry fellas, I meant to say 'doesn't have that swing'.

Either way, this dialog, 'it don't mean a thing' as I'm extremely happy whenever I listen.

Though, I better buy a new thesaurus or is that hippopotamuses? Is that with one 's' or two for the plural, spelt with two 'p's or tre, I meant three?

Hey, that rhymes with 'LST' for I hear them calling from the other room and they are asking for more power, 'Scottie', or was that Kirk?

Where am I?

 

FM

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Chill, Frank....the smiley indicates the remark was in jest!

I'm a Gibson SG man, myself, so if you want to call a Strad' a Strat', no worries. ^_^ <-------LOOK, another smiley!

 

Holy cow, it's my 1,000th post, and look how I used it! I'm gonna' be talking to myself the rest of the night.

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1 hour ago, ar_pro said:

Chill, Frank....the smiley indicates the remark was in jest!

I'm a Gibson SG man, myself, so if you want to call a Strad' a Strat', no worries. ^_^ <-------LOOK, another smiley!

 

Holy cow, it's my 1,000th post, and look how I used it! I'm gonna' be talking to myself the rest of the night.

Or, I thought perhaps I was being followed, I became frightened and I had to switch to listening to jazz with Dexter Gordon.

Wow, SG! I've always wanted one in the common dark burgundy, a great sounding and looking guitar. In 1968 when I learned "Jack Bruce" used one, that's all it took and I was in love with it's cut-outs, head-piece, knobs, guard, over-all nice looking piece. I've  always wondered about it's seemingly overly wide neck though.

I've tracked them on the web and found on the auction site, foreign made actual kits that one can build for around $130.

I'm sure they won't sound the same but a used one right now is not what I need.

I've enjoyed spending money on MC cartridges as they have made my speakers sound the best they've ever sounded in my age long history of enjoying ARs.

Each better cartridge I buy the better the system sounds. And, although I realize at some point the system will not respond past a certain quality as compared to the type of system newer current accessories were designed for enabling higher resolution and such, it's great playing around with the results.

FM

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2 hours ago, samberger0357 said:

We went for Broadcaster up to Telecaster

Stratosphere is the more likely progression here.

2 hours ago, ar_pro said:

P.S. Have I ever heard a “Stradivarius’ in person?

I thought everybody had by now. I believe my second wife was playing one when I met her and here is the "Red" Strad in a local performance.

 

 1936524_105995523334_5734205_n.jpg

Other than the "wow" factor they tend to be a bit over-rated.

Speaking of live performances, I attended a "Pink Martini" concert last evening in a newly remodeled venue. Everything looked nice and the concert was certainly enjoyable but the sound crew fell flat on this one as far as I was concerned. That's a problem when all the instruments are miked and there is one guy sitting at the mixer at constantly changing venues. It wouldn't have mattered if you were listening to a recording of this on a reconed woofer or not.

Roger

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I've never heard a “Stradivarius" in person nor have I ever tried a pink martini. I did see "King Tut's" gold burial head-dress at the MET of Art when it came here in 1978-79.

I like their take on the music they do though, not Tut's, pink martini I mean. Wait, did they find AR's in his tomb also?

Since I first heard their CD in 2003-4 'Amado Mio' has been one of my favorite tunes. It makes you fall in love with LST's, I mean women.

It's a good listening tune by all means and a good midrange tester outer, figure-outer and speaker/cartridge/ system ability test.

I have it in CD, but too cheap to buy the LP at Bernie's and N.

But look at the calamity here. There's a member who is celebrating his one thousandth post here, a member with his first post and you're posting strange women playing violins, it's almost dreamy, where am I?

While he's talking to himself the rest of the night, we could finish the booze, he won't notice. Then tomorrow, we can tell him, he finished it.

I'm sorry owlsplace but, I have got to say this; Let us have round of martini's on you as a toast. It is almost new years you know. It would be in keeping with the holidays and such.

Oh, yeah, Christmas time is here and I want a newer, more expensive cartridge. 4mv to 6.7 mv output, compliance anywhere from 10 to 15 um, and tracking anywhere from 1.8 to 2.7gms. I use SUT's, so not worried about gain too much. I want it 'punchy' like the Delos and myself and smooth like the fresh blown sands of a cool Nevada's nite during a winter's wind sans snow. Where am I?

Some how I pictured you with a beard doing Santa in the desert this year.

P.S. New member the 71-75 woofers that I like so much with their short-travel wires can be iffy if driven too hard.

I learned through reading RoyC. opinion here, that the newer version there after would afford more cone-travel affording more power handling/more cone -travel and it does. and although I've changed/repaired so many woofers to date, I think I'm still running two full-time. Time?  More time, I can live longer? Just don't go into the Tonegen'/whatever series.

Where am I?

 

fm

 

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OK, post 1K plus 1: I'm going to respectfully disagree with your assessment of the Tonegen woofer, having had excellent results with replacement Tonegens in the AR-9, as well as the AR-91.

I can't speak to its use with an LST, but I think it's a great woofer when used in those later designs.

Roger is correct; as far as hearing a recorded Strad', any classical music listener would find it difficult to miss. Current Strad' owners include Anne Akiko Meyers, Gidon Kremer, Nigel Kennedy, Anne-Sophie Mutter, Joshua Bell, and Itzhak Perlman, not to mention earlier generations of musicians whose performances made it to record.

And this doesn't even touch on the Guarneri instruments; the 18th Century Fender/Gibson debate!

And speaking of guitars, I saw this guy play the hell out of an SG in 1968....our seats were about 10 feet away.

jb.JPG

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1 hour ago, ar_pro said:

OK, post 1K plus 1: I'm going to respectfully disagree with your assessment of the Tonegen woofer, having had excellent results with replacement Tonegens in the AR-9, as well as the AR-91.

I can't speak to its use with an LST, but I think it's a great woofer when used in those later designs.

Roger is correct; as far as hearing a recorded Strad', any classical music listener would find it difficult to miss. Current Strad' owners include Anne Akiko Meyers, Gidon Kremer, Nigel Kennedy, Anne-Sophie Mutter, Joshua Bell, and Itzhak Perlman, not to mention earlier generations of musicians whose performances made it to record.

And this doesn't even touch on the Guarneri instruments; the 18th Century Fender/Gibson debate!

And speaking of guitars, I saw this guy play the hell out of an SG in 1968....our seats were about 10 feet away.

jb.JPG

While I only ever saw him after he went fusion, my favorite period is his Yardbirds phase. That said, Tele, Strat, SG's or broomstick, the guy can play the hell out of anything.  

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Never got to see the Yardbirds, but was lucky to catch this first iteration of the Jeff Beck Group: Rod Stewart, Ron Wood, Nicky Hopkins, and some pickup drummer who was awful. Opening for Beck was a local Philly band, and then the virtually unknown Ten Years After. That might have been a miscalculation; who in their right mind would ever want to follow Alvin Lee?

 

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45 minutes ago, ar_pro said:

Never got to see the Yardbirds, but was lucky to catch this first iteration of the Jeff Beck Group: Rod Stewart, Ron Wood, Nicky Hopkins, and some pickup drummer who was awful. Opening for Beck was a local Philly band, and then the virtually unknown Ten Years After. That might have been a miscalculation; who in their right mind would ever want to follow Alvin Lee?

 

Winter of 1968-69 this song allowed me to make it thru boot-camp, Great Lakes, Il.   Then a-c school. a sub-freezing winter marching everyday into a humid summer on lake Michigan.

Finally got  home Feb.'69, she was 15-16, I was18-19. It lasted 13 years more. From '72 the 3a's blasted to this song strongly at least in my room.

NYC  money/photography took over but, never forgot this tune or my baby.

My first AR-3a's from 1972 are still with me. So is my learned upon, since new, 1963 "Dane-Electro' Semi.

Eh! How you doing?

FM

 

 

 

 

More of the same but different.....

 

FM

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2 hours ago, ar_pro said:

OK, post 1K plus 1: I'm going to respectfully disagree with your assessment of the Tonegen woofer, having had excellent results with replacement Tonegens in the AR-9, as well as the AR-91.

I can't speak to its use with an LST, but I think it's a great woofer when used in those later designs.

The Tonegen woofer, when new, had an Fs of around 24 or 25hz, and "technically" was not as effective in the 3a, LST, AR-10pi/11era cabinets as the original AR-avarius woofers ^_^ , which were more compliant, with an Fs of 18 to 21hz when new. On the other hand, the Tonegen woofer was very well built (better than any previous version) and could handle more power, making it a good replacement for the AR-9 series era.

With time, however, Tonegen woofers are becoming more compliant due to wear, and often work out quite well as a general replacement. When using the better/more compliant replacement foam today, a Tonegen woofer will often measure around 20hz when re-foamed. In contrast, the early AR woofers today can measure as low as 15hz due to wear. They sound great, but have definite power limitations. (Frank, The cone's excursion didn't vary, just compliance.)

OK guys, you can return to the music program. :)

Roy

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Hello, All

Many thanks, particularly to Roy and FM, for your replies   It's just as I suspected (but wanted to verify) - there's just no rebuilding it to original specifications (as I have only the basket from the original - the cone, too, was damaged beyond any hope of restoration). because there are just no parts available.  What with the popularity of this truly classic speaker, I'm surprised that no one or firm  would find it profitable to make authentic replacement parts, or even the entire woofer itself, to the original specifications.  I've been an audio fan since 1960, and I've listened to a lot of speakers over time.  You can just about name a manufacturer (US or Japanese), and I've heard their products.  I'll differentiate for the AR, though - I have listened to music (all types) through AR speakers.  I write through for the ARs because they are a neutral window for hearing recorded music..  All the other speakers add or subtract different things, which is what I'm trying to avoid. 

Apparently, the only "remedy" for me is to watch ebay and elsewhere for an appropriate speaker to become available.

Again, my thanks for all that wrote to this "newbie" entry!

Sincerely - Larry K 

 

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Ah gee Larry, Roy is the one with the real knowledge here, I just do my side-show.

Although I can't speak of the operational quality of this specimen here's a possible candidate for you. It's of the earlier versions that I prefer though.

Roy's opinion is to be followed here for best results.

These earlier ones have long VC leads that are visible from the front on the cone, the later or more recent ones have short wires visible.

Good luck and if it were me, I'd start to offer the seller between $60 to $70 to be fair as the shipping is free, they're about 15 or so pounds each.

Other possible problems are that the seller is not familiar with basic speaker operation and there's always the possibility of voice-coil rub or things of that nature that the seller may not be aware of.

In my experience shipping has always been a crap-shoot because of the unbalanced weight of these woofers.

As an example I've had two delivered to me with both hanging out of the box as they broke through and were kept inside of the box with tape.  I had another pair bolted together and they must've been tossed or thrown as they arrived with both baskets bent on all sides. Luckily, the seller was understanding and took them back with a full refund.

If I were you, I'd communicate with the seller and work out shipping/insurance and discuss the inherent problems.

Regarding the condition, I'd ask Roy about any particulars but, the situation is what it is and ultimately an in person evaluation is the only way to determine its condition.

The seller is offering only one as shown and it's reading 2.8 ohms and that's about where it should be. Of course voice-coil rub/travel is the other consideration along with the spider being intact.

Good luck in whatever you choose to do.

FM

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Acoustic-Research-AR-3a-Woofer-Needs-Refoam-AR3a-Vintage-/232145353966?hash=item360cf0fcee:g:RMQAAOSwcLxYLF9G

 

P.S. UPDATE: I just noticed the seller is showing the photos of the older version and also the newer version.

Before you purchase, I'd ask the seller which one he is actually offering for sale. He must be specific although, either would be usable depending on what you're after.

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2 hours ago, frankmarsi said:

Regarding the condition, I'd ask Roy about any particulars

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Acoustic-Research-AR-3a-Woofer-Needs-Refoam-AR3a-Vintage-/232145353966?hash=item360cf0fcee:g:RMQAAOSwcLxYLF9G

P.S. UPDATE: I just noticed the seller is showing the photos of the older version and also the newer version.

Before you purchase, I'd ask the seller which one he is actually offering for sale. He must be specific although, either would be usable depending on what you're after.

They both appear to be old specimens. I would ask why the dust caps were removed. Neither woofer has the original dust cap. The replacement dust caps are larger, covering a portion of the leads Frank mentioned.

Roy

 

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I agree with you Roy.

I just checked the listing and the seller has reduced  the number of fotos and even shows one with the dust cap removed. My left eye-brow is starting to rise.

Speaking for myself every time I spend more than $50 to $100.+ on line, I sweat bullets until it arrives and during the unwrapping process.

I'm not really a person "Larry" should listen to as I become very nervous about such matters. Once bitten, twice shy.

Larry must make the choice and like I mentioned, he should open a line of conversation with the seller prior to purchasing this or anything else used.

I generally try to do the same however some folks/sellers are just plain out right rude and I find myself being ignored, that's when I hope that some one else bids higher than me, or I with draw. In the last decade or so, I've become more savvy with purchasing on that site and although I have never been ripped off except for my very first purchase in 2001 on two 3a tweeters which arrived completely destroyed, so I lost $50.

I've had good luck with used vinyl purchases on line but try to keep the number of purchase low. I ultimately prefer buying used records at my local used record store where I can handle and see right then and there.

Experience has taught me that the only way to make a good score is to constantly check the site to see what's going on. A couple of months ago I scored with buying four AR-9 tweeters in rapid succession and for decent prices too.

Lately, there have not been any available. So, maybe it goes in cycles, maybe not, that's why one must always check at least twice a week or more if you're after something.

I don't want to misguide or delay Larry as I'm sure he'd like to get moving on his project but, at the same time I certainly cannot assure him of anything on the topic of purchasing.

He'll have to roll the dice as these days it is becoming increasing more difficult to score as vintage parts are becoming more rare than when I purchased most of my spares from '04 thru '12. Though, if I see something worth while, I'll snatch it up really quick but, still I will be nervous until I actually hold in my hands and then test it.

FM

 

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Hello, FM

 

I too saw that ebay item ad.  Like you, when I saw the dust cap removed (why would the seller do that?), the red flags went up for me.  I'll just keep looking until something comes along.  As an ebayer since 1998, I've also had my share (unwittingly) of being burned with purchase deals.  Caution is a wise state of mind.  My vinyl purchasing experiences parallel yours.  About the only way one can be assured of getting a mint or near-mint disc is with it sealed in the original shrink wrap.  Sellers sometimes use a visual grading system to advise potential buyers of the disc condition.  That's great if you want to frame the record and hang it on a wall!  However, most of us "buy to play," and it's always a disappointment to find a NM disc to be a lot less so.  I was looking for a copy of the Glenn Yarbrough lp, "For Emily, Wherever I may Find Her."  I found one, graded NM.  Great!  Until, that is, I received it and put it on the turntable.  The sound was gritty (sounded as though it had been played previously with dust on the surface).  From curiosity, I ran a frequency spectrum analysis of a few seconds of several passages with Audacity.  Woops!  Nothing above 10KHz!  On a good lp, I typically see information (albeit not much) all the way up to 18-20Khz..  Looks like a heavy or worn stylus plowed through those grooves.  Bottom line - caveat emptor.

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  • 2 weeks later...

19 Dec Update:  I did find the appropriate woofer on ebay last week (one of two for sale), bought it and received it.  I did check resonant frequency (below 20Hz), and DC voice coil resistance (3.2 ohms), so the numbers looked good.  Installed it, ops checked it, and the improvement over the removed "exact replacement"  was immediate and apparent.  In other words, the speaker now sounds exactly like the other one.  So, for those out there in AR-Resto Land, look for the real item, don't believe in new "exact replacements," and your patience will be rewarded!  Again, my thanks to all those that commented upon this. 

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