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LST's...look what the cat dragged in....


lakecat

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Thank you VintageMan. It was meant to be in how it worked out.

David....thank you for the advice. I am certainly going to read up on it before I tackle it. There is a very slight water glass stain on top of one so I imagine I will be taking these down some to fresh veneer. Bottoms are scratched also. Being that these were stored in a closet for over twenty five years and the cabinet still looking so nice........could it be BLO on them? Especially if you have to recoat every year? It has a nice hard glassy finish now.....odd.

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Hi, Tom

Quick question. Just how important is the sealing of minor air leaks or "birdies" to the functioning of the AS woofer?

As a follow on, IF important is the sealing linear? That is do you benefit from repairing each leak or is upon sealing all the leaks that proper function results?

 

Thanks,

Jerry

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Yep Lakecat, plenty of advice out there on the interwebs on refinishing techniques.  You can try the iron process on the bottoms to lift some of the dent type scratches a bit before sanding.  Works for me.

I use a quality teak oil instead of BLO.  A little harder finish.  A lot of folks just use the danish oils like Watco.

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What an outstanding pair of LST's! You are extremely fortunate to grab those, in this condition, and with ALL working drivers! I'm surprised they lasted so long on CL! I found my LST-2's on CL, and made the deal. The seller told me he was swamped with calls after we spoke, with offers much higher than what we agreed to. Unlike yours, all 6 tweeters were dead, and I ended up doing a re-veneer as they were pretty beat up.

What surprises me is the cab condition. With the size and weight, they tend to get banged up a bit, luckily, they were in a closet all these years.

I've used Watcos oil on all my restorations with excellent results. Larry has repro badges for these too.

Congrats and enjoy these gems!

Glenn

 

 

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BLO wood finishes do have a drier in them. They're a mix of raw linseed oil, "stand oil," which is superheated (not actually "boiled") linseed oil, and a drier. 

I would do the mineral spirits wipe down with a non metallic wood finishing pad (Scotch Brite grey) prior to sanding. The pads are roughly the equivalent of 400 grit sandpaper and remove excess surface finish without gumming up the way sandpaper would. Then you can switch to coarser paper if you still think you need it.

And whatever finish you use, watch how you dispose of your rags. BLO is one of the most prone to spontaneous ignition, but all oil-based finishes have the potential.

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22 hours ago, tysontom said:

These gaskets were the white versions, and later these were changed to a black version with better results.  AR would use a stethoscope to manually listen all around the speakers during final test while pumping the woofer back and forth at 20 Hz with around 10-20 watts input (that's actually a lot of steady-state power at that frequency), and where an air leak was heard (used to be referred to as a "birdie"),

--Tom Tyson

Tom, it is simply incredible amazing, what you remember from the early 70'ies, you must somehow be related to elephants :D

By the way, mine have white gaskets, I better getter my stethoscope in action.

BRgds Klaus

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4 hours ago, onplane said:

Hi, Tom

Quick question. Just how important is the sealing of minor air leaks or "birdies" to the functioning of the AS woofer?

As a follow on, IF important is the sealing linear? That is do you benefit from repairing each leak or is upon sealing all the leaks that proper function results?

 

Thanks,

Jerry

Jerry, the cabinet should give the woofer what is called an "acoustic" seal; i.e., sealing the cabinet  effectively for the woofer to work down into the deep-bass frequencies, but not a total hermetic seal.  You don't want pressure to build up inside the cabinet, causing the woofer cone to act like an aneroid barometer with changes in atmospheric pressure, but you don't want obvious air leaks around gaskets and so forth.  Ultimately, if you push in the woofer cone a small distance, it should return to the center position slowly, not just rebound instantly. 

George_Benedetti_1957_AR-2_(01).jpg

AR-Inc_Bob-Bell_(02).jpg

--Tom Tyson

 

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The stethoscope was still an essential part of engineering and production testing well into the early 2000's, during my tenure at both Boston Acoustics (1991-2003) and Atlantic Technology (2003-2013). BA went from sealed to ported in 1994, when the sealed HD bookshelf speakers (HD5, 7 and 8) and sealed T830, 930, 1030 floorstanding speakers became the ported Compact Reference (CR) booksheves (CR6,7,8,9) and the ported Video Reference (VR) floorstanders VR20, 30 and 40.

BA's 'new gen' engineers liked vented designs, with their lower 3dB down points (at the expense of faster rolloff below that, which didn't really matter in the real world), and Andy Petite-Kotsatos relented, since the various Paradigms and PSB Alpha's were eating the HD's lunch in retail A-B comparisons.

Interesting: Air leaks are even more important in vented design, because the only "leak" you want is the vent. Any other "unintentional" leak wrecks a vented speaker's bass.

And yes, we called them 'birdies.'

Steve F.

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1 hour ago, tysontom said:

Jerry, the cabinet should give the woofer what is called an "acoustic" seal; i.e., sealing the cabinet  effectively for the woofer to work down into the deep-bass frequencies, but not a total hermetic seal.  You don't want pressure to build up inside the cabinet, causing the woofer cone to act like an aneroid barometer with changes in atmospheric pressure, but you don't want obvious air leaks around gaskets and so forth.  Ultimately, if you push in the woofer cone a small distance, it should return to the center position slowly, not just rebound instantly. 

-Tom Tyson

 

Tom, thanks ever so much for the fast response!

I'm still a little perplexed, however.  Tom, I just assume that all of the speakers would pass the "push test", so why bother checking for those very tiny air leaks?

Further, if you find and seal every little leak, how the heck do you prevent the speaker from acting like an aneroid barometer?  Is there some porosity in the dust cap to allow pressure equalization? 

 

Regards,

Jerry

 

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5 hours ago, Steve F said:

The stethoscope was still an essential part of engineering and production testing well into the early 2000's, during my tenure at both Boston Acoustics (1991-2003) and Atlantic Technology (2003-2013). BA went from sealed to ported in 1994, when the sealed HD bookshelf speakers (HD5, 7 and 8) and sealed T830, 930, 1030 floorstanding speakers became the ported Compact Reference (CR) booksheves (CR6,7,8,9) and the ported Video Reference (VR) floorstanders VR20, 30 and 40.

BA's 'new gen' engineers liked vented designs, with their lower 3dB down points (at the expense of faster rolloff below that, which didn't really matter in the real world), and Andy Petite-Kotsatos relented, since the various Paradigms and PSB Alpha's were eating the HD's lunch in retail A-B comparisons.

Interesting: Air leaks are even more important in vented design, because the only "leak" you want is the vent. Any other "unintentional" leak wrecks a vented speaker's bass.

And yes, we called them 'birdies.'

Steve F.

Steve, thanks for your comments.  

I learned something new today.  I had no idea that "leaks" significantly impact vented speakers.  I mean, it makes total sense, but I just never realized it was that important.

Clearly, vented and reflex designs rule the speaker market today by a lot!  It's almost impossible to purchase a new AS system these days.

Steve, what did you mean by "their lower 3db down points"?  Are you referring to the reduced volume of AS systems when doing an A/B in a show room?

Next, why doesn't the faster rolloff matter in the real world?  Is it because most people listen to music where the bass is provided by bass guitars and thus no one cares about the very low, deep bass?

In my small sample of ported systems, I often hear tons of bass, but NOT quality bass.  That is, the tendency of "one note" or very, very hard to differentiate notes is strong in all of the ported systems I've heard.  (Again, we must remember my sample is size is relatively small. Further, I listen to a lot of jazz where the bass line is provided by the big double basses.)

 

Regards,

Jerry

 

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6 hours ago, onplane said:

Steve, thanks for your comments.  

I learned something new today.  I had no idea that "leaks" significantly impact vented speakers.  I mean, it makes total sense, but I just never realized it was that important.

Clearly, vented and reflex designs rule the speaker market today by a lot!  It's almost impossible to purchase a new AS system these days.

Steve, what did you mean by "their lower 3db down points"?  Are you referring to the reduced volume of AS systems when doing an A/B in a show room?

Next, why doesn't the faster rolloff matter in the real world?  Is it because most people listen to music where the bass is provided by bass guitars and thus no one cares about the very low, deep bass?

In my small sample of ported systems, I often hear tons of bass, but NOT quality bass.  That is, the tendency of "one note" or very, very hard to differentiate notes is strong in all of the ported systems I've heard.  (Again, we must remember my sample is size is relatively small. Further, I listen to a lot of jazz where the bass line is provided by the big double basses.)

 

Regards,

Jerry

 

 

6 hours ago, onplane said:

Tom, thanks ever so much for the fast response!

I'm still a little perplexed, however.  Tom, I just assume that all of the speakers would pass the "push test", so why bother checking for those very tiny air leaks?

Further, if you find and seal every little leak, how the heck do you prevent the speaker from acting like an aneroid barometer?  Is there some porosity in the dust cap to allow pressure equalization? 

 

Regards,

Jerry

 

Hi Jerry,

What great replies!  First of all, I, too, didn't realize that speaker companies who built vented enclosures paid too much attention to small air leaks; however, I can see where it could give a problem.  I think what Steve is referring to regarding the "their lower 3dB down points" is the lower fc of many vented designs, but the 24 dB/octave rolloff below resonance in vented vs. the 12 dB/octave in acoustic-suspension designs.  Thus the vented design obviously rolls off very rapidly below resonance compared with a/s designs.  Vented designs are certainly more efficient, and I agree about the ported designs' tendency to exhibit "one-note bass," and although there is usually plenty of punchy low-frequency energy, it always seemed (to me at least) muddy or less well-defined than sealed systems, but there were some exceptions.  If one is listening to a lot of jazz with kick drum or orchestral music with big orchestral bass drum, organ or electronic music with lots of low-frequency energy, the acoustic-suspension system seems to have a significant advantage.  Ported or vented systems do just fine with probably 90% of all recorded music, especially rock or popular music.  But overall, I think acoustic-suspension systems are much cleaner than vented systems in reproducing fundamental energy, usually with flatter response and lower harmonic distortion, but many will argue that some vented designs that are certainly excellent as well.

I think where you see the Mortite being used to seal air leaks amounts to cumulative air leaks, enough that the air seal is probably disturbed a bit.  This would actually affect the restoring force of the woofer with the push test (certainly only a rough check, not a definitive test).  Usually, there are several leaks going on that require the Mortite.  The small air leak is allowed through the semi-porous dust cap on most AR woofers or through the level-control shafts on early ARs.  There is probably a very small amount of air leakage through the surrounds, but hopefully not too much.

--Tom

 

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11 hours ago, tysontom said:

 There is probably a very small amount of air leakage through the surrounds, but hopefully not too much.

I wonder if that is why AR originally coated the early foam surrounds with butyl rubber? Seems like the Boston FF surrounds that everyone likes are really porous.

Roger

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Well.....got the new surrounds on woofers and let them set for a day. Installed them today and ran the LST's thru the paces a little. I am simply stunned by the sound of these gorgeous speakers!!! Their power and depth is a little overwhelming at first but as you sit and listen, it just brings a smile to your face. There is simply no words to describe what I heard for about an hour. So much for that fleeting thought yesterday that if it disappointed....even in the slightest....that I could sell them no problem. Silly me..... as these incredible speakers are going nowhere.

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  • 1 year later...

HI LAKECAT!

Saw you have the Sansui G8000 receiver, here is couple questions,,, before you acquired the MAC 2205, did you give a tried hooking up the Sansui G8000 to the LST speakers? If you did and how they sounded when later comparing to the MAC 2205, on the scale board: 7/10 or 8/10..?

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Last couple weeks ago I went to bed early and the CL Ad popped up right away after that so I missed a chance to buy the very pretty cheap Mac system : Amp 2205, PreC-29,Tuner MR75 and Klipsch Heresy speakers, all for $1500, saw the ad in the morning and the items were already awaiting someone coming to take a grabbed... Last night I stayed late and I got other chance to grab the specimens....

.... LOOKS what is the treasures I found.. :)

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Wow!...what a find!....look in great shape. Congrats..... The Sansui G-8000 isn't man enough for the LST's....as it can't handle 4ohm with that bass. I did have it hooked up when I originally got the LST's as I didn't have the 2205 yet. It sounded wonderful at lower levels...but would shut down the 8000 at higher levels. That is why I got the 2205.

Believe it or not, I still haven't tried the LST's with the 2205 yet. They sit in my storage room waiting for time for me to refinish them before I set them up. I am currently remodeling my great room where they will sit.....on top of a pair of Polk SDA SRS 1.2t's. I want to compare them in a shoot-out and see who wins...:)

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Thanks Ra.Ra, LakeCat so much for the nice comments, also Thanks to other folks for the future comments... Cheers!!!

I am always looking at the nearby local Estate sales weekly, keep an eye for the AR speakers, don't think one day I have a chance to acquire the nice pair of LST with the very fair price... I am present have many low watts SS receivers that they sounded very sweet when hooked up to the ARs speakers, turning at the lower volume level, those SS brands such us: Marantz 19, 4400, 2270, 2245, 2240B,  2238B, 2230, 1150D, MAC 1700, 6100, Sansui G9000, AU-9500, Dynakit ST-70 pas-3, Tecnich SA-400, Scott 477, Fisher TA-600, AR receiver, AR integrated amp, Pioneer sx-1080 ( don't worry, most of my SS receiver I paid very good deal prices, except the AR equipment I won the high price at eBay auction..) I still have the Mac MX-113 sitting somewhere to wait for pair up with the big AMP, likes MAC 2105, 2205, 2255 or MC275,  depend on which ones coming 1st with the right price..

Below is the LST I acquired from local CRAIG"S ad, Its back side has blue tag , serial - 01260, 01264

1ab1.thumb.jpg.bc3ff2c17d67e57d3a99837f79183dd4.jpg

 

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8 hours ago, Liangshan Marsh said:

Thanks Ra.Ra, LakeCat so much for the nice comments, also Thanks to other folks for the future comments... Cheers!!!

I am always looking at the nearby local Estate sales weekly, keep an eye for the AR speakers, don't think one day I have a chance to acquire the nice pair of LST with the very fair price... I am present have many low watts SS receivers that they sounded very sweet when hooked up to the ARs speakers, turning at the lower volume level, those SS brands such us: Marantz 19, 4400, 2270, 2245, 2240B,  2238B, 2230, 1150D, MAC 1700, 6100, Sansui G9000, AU-9500, Dynakit ST-70 pas-3, Tecnich SA-400, Scott 477, Fisher TA-600, AR receiver, AR integrated amp, Pioneer sx-1080 ( don't worry, most of my SS receiver I paid very good deal prices, except the AR equipment I won the high price at eBay auction..) I still have the Mac MX-113 sitting somewhere to wait for pair up with the big AMP, likes MAC 2105, 2205, 2255 or MC275,  depend on which ones coming 1st with the right price..

Below is the LST I acquired from local CRAIG"S ad, Its back side has blue tag , serial - 01260, 01264

1ab1.thumb.jpg.bc3ff2c17d67e57d3a99837f79183dd4.jpg

 

You really got a great deal my man...:) And he even refoamed the woofers for you!...

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@Liangshan Marsh, a very good purchase you made indeed however, it looks as though those woofers are not the original ones as they look like newer AR-9 type woofers. Even though they will  work, if you want completely original you might consider changing them. 

According to my long term use of LST's, none of the amps you mention will ever be sufficient to drive those speakers to what they really need to sound their ultimate best.

I went from 400WPC to 700WPC to fully appreciate what these speakers are capable of and although I enjoy limitless distortion free transient-peaks,  I feel they are capable of handling more.  Julian Hirsch of "Stereo Review" felt that they could use more than 700WPC in his 1972 test report. He was using the same basic amp as I am, a Phase Linear PL-700.

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Thanks Mr Frankmarsi so much for pointing out the non- original LST woofers ,  presently I am not thinking about changing the woofers to the original yet... but from your mentions, suddenly I thought out,,, what happens If I swap the early AR3a woofers, in for the LST ones, does It match the XO specs, If It does, does It sound the same, less bass or more bass etc..

About the Amp , usually I play the amp at very low level, so for using a short time I am not worry the LST will shut down the Amp, but for the ultimate best sound I will put the PL-700 on the 1st  waiting list , had seen couple of them sold on the local CL for a fair priced,  around $400 ( non restore condition )

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Updated: Just moved the LST down the basement, saving the spaces and without making the new stands so I temporary put them sitting on the top of the Wharfedale W-70E speakers,,,( Unbelievable, I can grab the 140 pounds girl, bring her up or downstairs easily... but I completely surrendered this beast 90 pounds LST, ending called my friend for help.  :)

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On 10/4/2018 at 4:21 PM, Liangshan Marsh said:

Thanks Mr Frankmarsi so much for pointing out the non- original LST woofers ,  presently I am not thinking about changing the woofers to the original yet... but from your mentions, suddenly I thought out,,, what happens If I swap the early AR3a woofers, in for the LST ones, does It match the XO specs, If It does, does It sound the same, less bass or more bass etc..

About the Amp , usually I play the amp at very low level, so for using a short time the receiver will not be cooked by the LST, I will put the PL-700 on the waiting list 1st, had seen couple of them sold on the local CL for a fair priced,  around $400 ( non restore condition )

Dear Liangshan Marsh, regarding the earlier woofers; if you read back a while it was mentioned by me and then confirmed RoyC that the earlier woofers have a slight bit more response in the lower registers., how slight I really couldn't tell you, however I've heard the difference as difficult as it is to discern. I do know that when I eventually had to one by one replace my woofers I decided in using the older 1970's variant as compared to the newer issues and when I read Roy's opinion, it confirmed my opinion.

In terms of better sound capability; many here seem to be under the misconception  that a more powerful amp is necessary only for higher volumes. Well, that's only partly correct.

If you were to look at a graph you will see that doubling watts, you only add 3db more volume for every doubling of the amp's power rating. When I switched from Phase Linear PL-400's to Phase Linear Series II PL-700 I only gained those 3db more in volume which in actuality isn't all that much more in volume. However, in a nut-shell. what I did gain was the ability to better handle peak transients with greater clarity and realism and certainly more 'jump-factor'. It also permitted greater clarity for example with a 'rim-shot' on a drum. Transparency of instruments was increased because the amps were not struggling to delineate differences between those instruments and notes. In terms of bass performance,  bass notes were better defined and separated between each other, ultimately sounding more real and with less doubling

To further explain; I must also mention that the amplifier wasn't the only aspect that increased transparency  and better transients but, by using a cleaner-signal into the amplifier was greatly increased because my input signal from my pre-amp was being fed a cleaner source due to a more accurate signal sent by a more accurate source in there form of a costly  and more accurate responding cartridge. So, in short words, the cleaner the signal from the source into the amplifier and then into the speakers all attributed to a more accurate and therefore better sounding end result. Excuse my verbosity.

So, higher power is not a do all be all method and though a amp's effortless higher power is necessary to enable the signal to be cleanly heard, it's the source that ultimately matters as that's what is being amplified. In short, it's a combination of all the correct components that will lead to the end result of better fidelity. In the case of the LSTs,  they require more input-power to allow each of those nine drivers to perform effortlessly to begin with. If an inadequate amount of power is applied to the LST, that's asking the lower power amp to work harder and at some point even being stressed. By stressing an amplifier to attempt to cleanly move all of those nine drivers, we introduce a degree of distortion/clipping and ultimately listener fatigue.

In my world,  I learned this four+ decades ago with my AR-3a's powered by a 60WPC amp that just didn't sound realistic and had limited response in terms of accurate or real sounding instrument portrayal. When in 1974 I became hungry for more realism and accuracy out of my system, I then switched to a 400WPC @ 4 ohms PL-400 and fell in love with my system all over again and never dreamed of going back to a canned reproduction or lesser sound.

It should be known that higher amplifier power comes with it's own set of rules also. To use the 'car-analogy', one buys a higher power motor for smoothness and safer acceleration when passing but, one does not always drive at high speeds or tear away from a traffic light with that added power, it's just smoother, safer and faster and certainly confidence inspiring.

I have a few videos using a single set of LST's with a PL-400 and the LST's sound terrific with most types of music, however when I installed a PL-700 Series II amp it seemed as though a new world of detail, transparency, and realism had opened up to my ears. I don't post videos because as with a sound-clip on a computer set of speakers, the differences are barely discernible so, I don't bother.

Regarding my choice of amplifiers; these old-birds are not for every one. A newer amp from "Parasound" or similar name brand quality may be recommended. I remained with Phase Linear because they offer a quickness of transients and bass-slam and of my history in using them since 1974. Back in the 1970's I felt as I do today, they just have a clearer top and bottom end that I easily grew to enjoy and continue to enjoy today. If you were to decide on the Phase Linear, I'd recommend a DC-cut-out relay' installed along with a complete new set of matched higher 'SOA' power transistors along with a replacement of any needy capacitors and resistors on the driver-broad. This would generally apply to almost any 45+ year old amplifier in the same way.

Speaking of my own opinions: I find many other amplifiers just don't have the iron-fisted  and well-controlled bass-slam or ultra-extended high-frequency response that the old Phase Linear's do in their price range, especially with deficient speakers as AR's. 

In my travels, I've found the Adcoms a touch lacking in the higher frequency areas sort of like I've found my B&K ST-202 to be. That 202 was simply a mess sorting out the different frequencies and was completely lacking any balls in the bass with an absence of real-guts across the entire frequency band.

FM

 

P.S. I would consult the "AR-Guide" to understand the different periods of the famed AR 12" woofers. Like I said, I prefer the circa 1972 to 1974 variety, which of course would be period-correct for the AR-LST as it is for my three pairs of AR-3as. 

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The LST is the ellusive AR speaker I have not heard......of the Big Boys.

congrads to Liangshan Marsh and Lakecat....

The multiple midrange drivers at various angles.......very interesting!  However, I dont understand why there is No midrange in the center.....just outsides

 

 

 

Love to find a set.

 

Mr Marsi.......would you describe the differences in sound quality and detail  between your LST's and AR9's.   I know you prefer the LST, but im curious on a more detailed reason......

I agree with alot of what you say on power needed......you know that.

 

 

 

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On 10/4/2018 at 7:37 PM, harry398 said:

The LST is the ellusive AR speaker I have not heard......of the Big Boys.

congrads to Liangshan Marsh and Lakecat....

The multiple midrange drivers at various angles.......very interesting!  However, I dont understand why there is No midrange in the center.....just outsides

 

 

 

Love to find a set.

 

Mr Marsi.......would you describe the differences in sound quality and detail  between your LST's and AR9's.   I know you prefer the LST, but im curious on a more detailed reason......

I agree with alot of what you say on power needed......you know that.

 

 

 

Hi Harry, it's difficult to explain the differences.

Beyond the fact that both being similarly 'voiced' by the AR company,  each present a different presentation almost entirely. 

I'm certain I must've described my impressions in numerous posts in 2014 when I bought the AR-9's. 

Nonetheless, to me the LST's present a cavernous like deep and wide soundstage that you can virtually look into and touch each sound or a instrument's location different and more- so than any other speaker I've heard.

When listening to LSTs there's a notable sense of space around the musical tones that quickly becomes evident. Sounds emanates from and around the speaker and approaches almost as a rolling wave. Imaging can be forceful, but with-out any beaming or pin-pointing unless it's in the program source.  The speakers disappear as one becomes part of a musical event and not simply sounds coming out of a box.

There are often times when I experience that proverbial 'jump-factor' due to the sound's overwhelming sense of power and vast size.

When a powerful crescendo or strong puck of a string or smack of a snare drum become so alive you can't help but react, the jump-factor becomes an almost involuntary response.

Typically with jazz I'm at a small table 10 feet in front of a small stage with each instrument in its own position, with 'be-bop' the stage gets bigger and more spread out. With large size symphony you're feeling as though you're sitting in a large hall with a high ceiling as the LSTs project a sense of depth and size and positioning of instruments clearly defining their place in the orchestra combined with the hall's echo.

With rock or pop, chest sensitizing bass notes are just as up front as a piercing guitar break. Crash and ride cymbals are clearly delineated with-in in their own space.   The same on jazz hearing brushes on a snare clearly separated but still part of the whole even if only in different measure.

Hearing each instrument no matter what type of music is playing while being portrayed so naturally and with equal scale is something that amazes me still to this day after almost thirty years of use. The term separation is hardly enough to describe the huge soundscape LST's effortlessly convey.

FM

 

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Thank you Frank.

I will get a set one day.  

For now, i have heard ar3a's( which i really love), ar11,ar58s, ar98lsi, ar50, ar5, ar302,ar78,ar9lsi.......all great in their own right, but to my ears nothing surpasses the ar9.     

Recording quality, room acoustics and size play a role.    

Lucky for me they are out of fashion due to size.   

 

Enjoy your system Frank.   

 

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