AR-LST

[Tim]

I have some of the at lst pro black edition I can't find even a picture of these speakers anywhere on the net, I have heard one person mention them but only to say they have heard of them an never seen then.

does anyone now how much these transducers would be worth if I decide to sell them?

[Carnivore]

Can you post some photos of yours?

Here's a thread about them including some photos and links:

 

[ra.ra]

Just another pic for reference.

 

[tysontom]

7 hours ago, Tim said:

I have some of the at lst pro black edition I can't find even a picture of these speakers anywhere on the net, I have heard one person mention them but only to say they have heard of them an never seen then.

does anyone now how much these transducers would be worth if I decide to sell them?

There is no such thing as an AR-LST as a "pro black edition."  Who told you that?  The black-finish AR-LST was precisely identical to the oiled-walnut AR-LST.  Just the finish was different.  To suggest anything else is pure nonsense.

The value of any AR-LST completely depends on the physical and electro-mechanical condition of the speaker, its originality and any changes or modifications done to it.  If the speaker is unmolested, unchanged, flawless with no dings, scratches or marks, and the grills were pristine beige linen with no dust lines, and all the drivers were original and working (perhaps a surround replacement), and the speakers had their original shipping cartons, the value could be very high -- regardless of whether the finish was black lacquer or oiled-walnut.  

Black finish was a rare (special) no-cost option, but it was black lacquer painted (by AR's cabinet-maker) on the sealed walnut-veneer standard cabinet rather than the traditional boiled-linseed oil/wax finish.  Several black AR-LSTs were used by the Royal Opera House, Covent Gardens and by other professional venues using the LSTs hidden from visibility.  Some AR-6s were finished from the factory in black as well.

 

AR-LST in black-lacquer from Covent Garden, I think (picture courtesy of CSP member and AR aficionado Klaus Mollgaard).

--Tom Tyson

[KlausDK]

7 hours ago, tysontom said:

AR-LST in black-lacquer from Covent Garden, I think (picture courtesy of CSP member and AR aficionado Klaus Mollgaard).

 

My black LST's do originate from London/UK, but not from Covent Garden. They originally belonged to the founder of NAD Electronics (New Acoustic Dimension) Dr. Martin L. Borish. NAD Electronics were in Europe (at least in DK) co-marketed with AR speakers, and Dr. Martin L. Borish acquired a set of AR-LST to have in his office. When NAD was acquired by the Danish firm AudioNord in 1991, the LST's were left in his office in London, and they were taken to DK by one of the Audionord employees, from whom I bought them.

BRgds Klaus

[Steve F]

I have worked on the “inside” in marketing/product management/engineering management in the US speaker industry for decades. It’s frequently amusing to hear so-called outsiders’ reasons as to why they think a manufacturer does or doesn’t do something. No disrespect intended, it’s simply that those not involved in this crazy business simply aren’t privy to some of the real reasons.

Black or wood veneer. Those were the common choices from many companies for years. Yup, Marketing sometimes decided that due to their extensive, highly-accurate market research, a black option was needed. (Translation: the Marketing Director’s mother-in-law said at dinner last Sunday afternoon that that “walnut finish didn’t match my furniture and I’d rather have a neutral color than a mismatched wood in my living room.”)  So in typical Marketing Director fashion, he extrapolated that there must be ‘a lot of people who feel he same way.’

Here’s where Purchasing and Manufacturing enter the picture. Wood veneer cabinets are a royal pain to a manufacturer. Due to the natural variations of real wood, small flaws are readily visible, some cabs have more ‘cathedrals’ than others, the grain and color can easily be mismatched from lot to lot, or even unit to unit. You don’t want a “light” walnut LST with minimal ‘marbling’ and a “dark” walnut LST with heavy ‘marbling’ in the same pair. What are you supposed to do? Segregate them in the warehouse? For $600/pr. in 1971, they’d better be PERFECT.

 

So to be safe, QC rejects a lot of wood-color veneer cabinets, trying to ensure that all the good ones are reasonably similar. Boy, does that raise the cost of the cabinets, because even if the vendor agrees to credit the manufacturer for the rejected cabs, there is still the time and expense involved in packing them up and sending them back, plus the potential down-time of not having cabs to manufacture, etc.

Black to the rescue!

Marketing sells Executive and Sales on the idea they we need a black option. Manufacturing and Purchasing LOVE the idea, because every single rejected natural-wood cabinet can now be painted black, and Voila! No more rejects.

No more color variations, no more grain variations, no visible flaws, no time and expense wasted shipping them back, no more arguing with the cabinet vendor that 20 of the 60 cabs you sent back were damaged, so you’re not getting credit for those, etc.

EVERY PROBLEM regarding questionable real wood cabinets magically goes away when you slather a coat of black paint on them.

Thank G-d for black paint. Than G-d for mothers-in law. That’s the real, inside story.

Steve F.

[der]

Interesting thread. I never knew that AR produced a black finish. 

der

[tysontom]

Thanks for that information, Klaus!  Your black LSTs are very handsome!  Attach some more pictures of your pair.

Martin "Marty" Borish was also a former AR president, brought in by Teledyne after Abe Hoffman left AR in the early 1970s.  Borish, who spent most of his time in Europe, was not considered a particularly adept manager at AR but was largely responsible for the creation of the AR-LST and the Acoustic Research Demonstration Record, Vol. 1: The Sound of Musical Instruments.  It was his idea to introduce a new AR speaker that would surpass the best of Europe's high-end speaker models from KEF and B&W, and he gave Roy Allison and the AR engineering team permission to develop the new speaker.  An earlier prototype of the LST was hand-built by Sumner Bennett (AR Sales Manager), but this one did not have four midrange and tweeter units, only two of each.

—Tom Tyson

[ar_pro]

EVERY PROBLEM regarding questionable real wood cabinets magically goes away when you slather a coat of black paint on them.

Thank G-d for black paint. Than G-d for mothers-in law. That’s the real, inside story.

So true, so true. Bad veneer is why our AR-91's got their black finish!

[KlausDK]

On 10/05/2016 at 7:49 PM, tysontom said:

Thanks for that information, Klaus!  Your black LSTs are very handsome!  Attach some more pictures of your pair.

Martin "Marty" Borish was also a former AR president, brought in by Teledyne after Abe Hoffman left AR in the early 1970s.  Borish, who spent most of his time in Europe, was not considered a particularly adept manager at AR but was largely responsible for the creation of the AR-LST and the Acoustic Research Demonstration Record, Vol. 1: The Sound of Musical Instruments.  It was his idea to introduce a new AR speaker that would surpass the best of Europe's high-end speaker models from KEF and B&W, and he gave Roy Allison and the AR engineering team permission to develop the new speaker.

Very interesting reading,Tom. So what you are saying, if I understand you correct, is that my LST's belonged to the very person, who was largely responsible for putting the LST development project on track? What provinence!! If I ever remotely for a split second thought about selling my LST's, that is now completely out of the question. They are early versions with SN's 558 and 570, the have the cross-over mounted on a seperable part of the cabinet.

BRgds Klaus

[tysontom]

12 hours ago, KlausDK said:

Very interesting reading,Tom. So what you are saying, if I understand you correct, is that my LST's belonged to the very person, who was largely responsible for putting the LST development project on track? What provinence!! If I ever remotely for a split second thought about selling my LST's, that is now completely out of the question. They are early versions with SN's 558 and 570, the have the cross-over mounted on a seperable part of the cabinet.

BRgds Klaus

Klaus, LSTs don't get any nicer than what you have!  Also, they are the Cambridge versions with the original hard-wired tweeters and midrange drivers.  Very nice!

--Tom

[der]

Thanks Klaus and Tom, wonderful information. I have never even had the pleasure of hearing a pair of LST, let alone owning them.  The black pair are stunning. It appears the crossovers are original?

der

[KlausDK]

6 hours ago, der said:

Thanks Klaus and Tom, wonderful information. I have never even had the pleasure of hearing a pair of LST, let alone owning them.  The black pair are stunning. It appears the crossovers are original?

This is as it was originally, I have replaced capacitors and other parts of the cross-over since then, you can follow the evolution of the upgrade described here:

LST Cross-Over upgrade

Right now I am enjoying my LST-2 with Mr Hendrix performing "Live at Winterland"

BRgds Klaus

[der]

Thanks. I did my 3a crossovers a couple of years ago.

 

[owlsplace]

Can we spec this black lacquer finish if anyone else wants to reproduce it? It looks a bit like a satin finish rather than a gloss piano finish.

[frankmarsi]

There will be no better time to say this to you owlsplace but, "Hey mind your own beeswax"

Get it Norton, mind your own beeswax.*

In short order you have become so well know here owlsplace for your beeswax extra crispy, light and fluffy finish techniques and extra top-secret, wood finish delight method  alright,  alright, you get it. Moving on................

Like tonite in NJ, it's raining so much because of that confounded southern hurricane,  "I wouldn't send a night out on a dog like this",,,,, get Norton, night out on a dog,like this,,,, night out on a dog, I tell ya!*  The King Arthur and the Round Table joke.

And another thing Alice*, I meant Klaus. My four in use LST's have the S/N as 00613, do you think maybe we're sisters? I mean they're brothers from a another mother? Owlsplace, please come clean did you ever give that secret formula to this site's good ole buddy "PeterB"? You know "PeterB" was around before I was here in 2004 and he had much helpful technical advice as many here once did put forth.You know, before they changed the water supply. Sadly, there are so few of the original guard that once ruled this site with much know-how and strong technical experience. My goodness they all were like a legion of Gladiators who came at me like 'gangbusters'. I merely a babe in the woods of all 54 years old was so overwhelmed by the grew and their vast knowledge and 'can-do' spirit here that I gleefully decided to act as the class-clown back then.  I'm sure there was some eye-rolling as I offered no real technical advice much like I am today, but the silliness to me anyway was a departure from the hard-core 'speaker-bus' types, get it? Speaker buzz. Hey, my woofer is buzzing what could it be? FM answer might be, well it could be flatulence?

I myself mostly cried every week about my 16 blown tweeters with not a beacon in site for a replacement. Ah, those were the days at "CSP". Site membership was hardly more than 2000 or so. What is it now, the population size of a moderate sized city like "Cincinnati"?

And for all of you history-buffs it's actually named after a great and wonderful "Roman" general from I believe during the first or second century AD.  If you pronounce it in "Italian" or for all of you midwesterners, who would say, "I-Tral-ians", it's phonetically pronounced as chin-chin-natty. 

Wait, you're right, it's none of my beeswax now is it.

And, another thing Klaus, my rear exit, let me clarify that, rear access door on  the back of the LST's have a dab of semi-clear clue on top of the T-nuts which hold down the X-over components locking the nuts (oh, sounds dreadful) securely  in place, from your foto, yours appear not to, curious if you know their origins for certain.

Getting back to the apparent closeness in S/N's between your's and mine, makes me wonder if your's were made here in the USA ordered from abroad, lightly washed with a coat of black before shipment. Owlsplace is correct to state that it's not a thick, but a seeming thinly applied coat of thin paint. Klaus if you recall, your black LST's were discussed here several years ago and the same questions came up. Further, I asked you where did you get the silver colored name plates and you informed me correctly, that all LST's have silver colored name plates.

Becoming so envious of how wonderful your's looked, I quickly ordered four sets of grills and name plates and transformer trim plates from Larry at "vintage-ar". My LST's were not acquired with the grills and trim plates as mine were culled from a 42nd. Street theater and those parts must have been thrown out so no doubt the speakers would have been un-noticeable behind the scenes sort of speak.

Personally I, like I'm sure many others here like your's so much that I am tempted to do a light sanding of mine and black-wash them with a light coat of thinned paint. I have put the grills on mine because I painstakingly and precisely cut dark grey vinyl screening to exact fit and match the appearance of the early Mark Levinson Cello Amati's on mine attached by the velcro adhering to the screening and I still feel they have 'pro' appearance. My third pair are all original except for a refoaming job.

Back in 1987 when I first acquired mine, there weren't any good vendors like "vintageAR" around, nor were there any suppliers of foam-surrounds, so they sat at my folks house for a few years. In 1990 I found a tiny 1/16 page ad in the back of the then tiny Stereo-Phile magazine of some fellow in N.Carolina who was making the cut-to-size spilt ones and have been listening to them ever since but, of course I've re-done the foam surrounds several times.  If you care to know, I probably will mount the dedicated grills after I paint the inside of this house first, etc. Right now, I prefer the dark screening as they almost present a ominous appearance instilling a sense of an unknown force, until they start playing and prove their force and power. In fact with certain music they're almost scary in terms of their powerful presentation. I've jumped out my seat a number of times after a 'good-session' and even clapped as if I was at an live performance because they come very close to that easily.

FM

*PS for those not familiar with the '50s TV series, 'The Honey Mooners'

[samberger0357]

Honeymooners. 

[frankmarsi]

Yes, my x-wife or should say one of them and I honey mooned each other in eastern Europe. Mooned being the operative word here.

 

Yes, created in and around 1954 or about the same time when the first AR-1 came out, on the 3 channels we had in NYC, there was an early situation comedy series about a husband and wife team called the "HoneyMooners".

It supposedly took place in "BensenHurst, Brooklyn not far from where my family first lived in "Bedford-Styvansant,  Brooklyn, NYC", baby!

You may catch it as re-run, re-runs on cable, check your local TV guide.

It was the at the time typical 'macho-man' versus wife comedy. Growing up back then, it was in reality a common mind-set for many individuals.

However, today it certainly would not be considered 'politically-correct' and maybe not even humorous to many. I, on the other hand was exposed to it as a child, having seen every issue of it countless, upon countless times and dependent of my mood still find it funny as many still do. I just can't watch it anymore because of that fact though.

FM

P.S. meantime, this 'auto-correct' spelling jazz is annoying the woofer out of me. I'm hoping the nuclear defense agency is not using it.  Good-heavens. Imagine typing 'NO' Launch and it wrongfully corrected to NOW?

[samberger0357]

There's the original 39, and then the "Lost Episodes, 107 skits from various sources between 51-57. Those are great, many funnier then the 39. I  have them all, can watch them anytime, anywhere. The precursor to All In The Family. Great tv.

Now  back to your LST's... 

[frankmarsi]

Well, I was using them a couple of hours ago, left the TT platter spinning with a disc on I played 4 times earlier of Jean Pierre Rampal's Picnic-Suite with "Eric Bolling". Wonderfully light and flowing musical sounds on the once great Columbia label.

Funny we're talking about it now as yesterday, I order two used copies and one sealed copy on that site that I've spent too much money on solely as a buyer. When I first retired back in '04 I found in mint condition pair of AR-3a cabinets, X-over intact for $89. each. Months after purchased another pair in pretty much minty condition all original set of AR-3a's for about $370. Ah, those were the days weren't they?

It's a must have record, doubtful if available on CD.

It's great hearing on AR's classical musicians playing with a jazz style. I just ran inside and put it on again.

Seek it if you don't have it already, some good short bursts of [double-bass' on it also.

Ah, so you do know the 'mooners', excellent.

[samberger0357]

Frank contrary to your common assumptions, you ain't the only one who has been around a few years and seen a few things. But if you want to believe that please don't let me get in your way. 

[frankmarsi]

Oh dear, you're too easy but, don't worry your pretty little head over it, as I will not allow anything like that to ever happen. I mean you of all people to get in my way would never be an occurrence, an annoyance brought on by a continually nagging insecurity perhaps.

Look, I've got to go. Tomorrow I have a nephew coming over for at least a three hour session of ear, mind and body multiple assaults by system # 1.

A good time to be had by all, I assure you.

And trust me, not he nor I will be struggling to think if we mis-heard something or not, as this system is extremely detailed and almost overwhelmingly vivid sounding with not as much as a single minor musical detail escaping our audio receptors commonly know as ears.

The way I see it, Lyra cartridges generally will not last more than 1,500+ few hours or so, and I will get my moneys worth regardless.

I'll probably continue to buy that brand name as they're excellent by anyone who's in the realm estimation. 

Truthfully, I've never experienced such a great cartridges like these in my life. My stable of cartridges has many well known names in it but my Delos and Kleos are the stable leaders, best horses I own. There is the Audio-Technica ART-9 which is truly excellent in its own right and can strongly compete and even on certain occasions out-do the others. With the Kleos being the more refined and eloquent of the group.  The Delos offers up a ever so slightly elevated upper-mid and lower high frequency response which I highly recommend for any AR speaker listener as AR speakers benefit greatly from such an ability.

And although the Delos has lived maybe one third of its life span, I would surely buy another when the time comes, there's nothing on the market like them Out doing such notables as the 17d Karat, Benz Micro Glider S,  the Dynavector DV XX2 MKII, and many others who boast as have similar abilities, but just don't. The Kleos is very much enjoyed but is bit controlled sounding and not as exuberant sounding as the Delos.  The new to me trusty ART-9 approaches both of my Lyras in many ways but it's only 3/4 broken in so far and I'm reserving judgement until after 60 hours of break-in time before I have a total battle between my heavy hitting stable mates.

Mind you and anyone who's interested, these opinions are solely based on using them with AR speakers and will behave differently with other brands of speakers.

FM

[samberger0357]

14 minutes ago, frankmarsi said:

I mean you of all people to get in my way would never be an occurrence, an annoyance brought on by a nagging insecurity perhaps.

I think it's pretty clear who has the insecurity issues here. 

[frankmarsi]

Attempting to turn it around the opposite way and using my words as your own is definitely not original and displays a certain lacking of something, it's beyond me. In simple terms it is a very childish retort.

In your last big post just a few days ago asking what the lowest amount of power that can be used with an AR-3a speaker shows to the world a 'boot-campers' level of perspective, clearly.

It is written on the back of the speaker that 25 watts is the minimum however, those of us who have owned these speakers years are were able to push the envelope with excellent results have already learned better and so long ago that more is better, hands-down. No need for further discussion as to repeat 'what-ifs' and expressing doubt only repeat mistakes that many made many years ago. AR threw us the ball, it was up to us to run with it.

To back-step and challenge convention in that respect is futile and certainly not the road to a better musical presentation, much less an sort of enjoyment. All of my systems are a strong testament to my having learned that more power is responsible for my fully enjoying my system to the maximum limits. Like I implied in earlier, trying to change the flow of a river is impossible and not the usual way to open one's mind to achieving something greater.

Responding to me in a terse way is truly an adverse way to display a genuine interest in better listening, it seems more argumentative than anything. Switching amps and speakers under the guise of trying to show flexibility is a form of indecisiveness and dissatisfaction at best.

I have spent so many years in fine tuning, adjusting, learning, inquiring, and tweaking and have spent much money on my main system to bring it to such a high level of performance it dazzles even me like no stereo system has ever done before. Any changing of components is geared to improving and striving towards the ultimate level of musical satisfaction. I don't back-track in the less desirable direction, I always try to go upward and forward. 

This constant challenging and badgering attitude towards me or anyone else is beyond a simple difference of opinion, it's like a clamoring for attention.

What's with that?

 I'm especially puzzled by one of your mentions. If you truly have the 3 to 4,000 records and several thousand CD'S as you said you did, but yet, continue to listen in a small room truly defies my better understanding. mY new location is over 32 by 60 feet and I can hardly walk through it with out acting like a race car driver and that's with over 2000 records in a constant dehumidified basement. 

FM

 

[samberger0357]

Nobody else has reacted to this simple conversation as adversely, and negatively, as you have. In fact, everyone else who responded found a way to do so in a very positive manner, something that seemingly also bothered you a great deal. You've taken the whole thing as a personal assault, and while I found your whole response humorous in the beginning, it quickly became boorish and silly. I really don't care about your many records, your stacked LST's, your expensive carts, whatever. You enjoy them? Great. But your incredible, ridiculous assumption that only you know what's really best, that nobody else's opinion is neither correct or valid if it doesn't synch up with yours, finally has simply reached it's end, for me at least. This will be my last response to you on this, or any other topic. I'm not sure who you think you're impressing with your tales of your equipment and experience, but as I've tried to make clear to you(and you refuse to acknowledge it) you are not the only one on this forum with years of audio, or life, experience. You are, however, the only one that I have encountered, that wants to bring it up as some sort of proof that you know better than anybody what's right, and what's not. Well, here's some news for you. You don't. 

'I haven't "challenged" or "badgered"  you or anyone else. I've simply expressed my experiences. The fact that you have taken it on as a challenge speaks more to your own issues.

i switch things around not because of dissatisfaction, but because I like to. I have different amps and speakers, as do many others, and they all sound different. If I had a larger house with more rooms, I'd have multiple systems set up, as do many. I don't, so I swap in and out. I like them all. Perfectly normal, your psycho analysis notwithstanding. 

To solve your puzzle, I keep my media in 3 different areas. I don't normally discuss the size of my collection I did so early on in the hope that it would help you to understand that you were speaking to a fellow music lover. I'm not in competition with you or anybody else. 

Yes there is a word for somebody that constantly needs to remind everyone else why they, their opinion, and their possessions are better than everyone else's. It's being used quite a bit these days to describe a certain candidate running for President. I'm sure you can figure out the rest. 

Good luck to you on your journey.