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What's the lowest amount of watts you have used with our AR3/3A's?


samberger0357

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Ah please forgive me, Professor Marsi. I forgot in my excited state to express my sincere apologies to you, ahead of time, knowing full well that my comments would cause potentially an unhealthy rise in your bp, something that I would not wish on anyone. I was merely expressing my thoughts, opinion(yes, I know what they say about those pesky things), however misguided you may think they are. Obviously a few of us have sinned greatly by actually enjoying the sound of these great speakers with something less than the required wattage expected. As I noted, I'm very much enjoying using my Adcom, and Crown big power amps currently with my 3's. So there is no debate on that issue, thankfully, with you or anyone else. But on occasion, I have(and again, my sincere apologies for saying this) enjoyed the sound of my wimpy little tube amp through them as well. It suits some of the music(mostly acoustic based) that I listen to. Not always, just sometimes. Hey, I enjoy a hot dog every once in awhile, too. 

So perhaps we can all live in harmony at this point. But if not, so be it. Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, right? And even if it is, there's always those pesky pits. 

And now I will be getting off your lawn. 

Have a nice day. 

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That  "Ferrari" would have not felt the same if it had a "Fiat" engine in it, ma che dici?

If some here would understand what I was speaking of a few days ago about power they would enjoy what AR speakers sound like and require to give that smooth well balanced sound.

Using AR speakers for almost forty six (46) years now, I can not and rest assured will not, cave in to such misinformed and incorrect notions of what it takes to supply a large AR speaker with the proper amounts of power to give a 'realistic' rendering of music for maximum pleasure is a underpowered amp., no not even 100watts per channel. 

Some folks here refuse to want to enjoy music fully in terms of effortless, accurate, realistically, naturally and every other way to truly experience AR speakers the way they were designed to sound.

If one's room is too small, or if their amp is under powered, or what ever other reasons are preventing them from enjoying music the way it was made to be enjoyed fully, so be it.

But, don't force inaccurate and mis-informed opinions to be the 'norm' as if the rest of us are incorrect or unknowledgeable.

If one wants to realistically enjoy a classical music concert or rock concert, it's not done with tiny amps or tiny speakers in tiny rooms.

The rules were developed decades ago when it comes to the electronic reproduction of music accurately. Some here seem to think they can re-make the rules or re-write history.

That does not fly in the light of reality or with experienced listeners.

I haven't progressed in this hobby from a tiny Dynaco SAT-35 at 17.5 RMS watts per-channel in 1967 to a first in the world Phase Linear 700 Series II that gives 700 RMS watts per-channel at 4 ohms amplifier because it was notion or habit or a simple curiosity of speaker box fooling around with basic low power amps.

I made every change necessary to bring me closer to the original musical experience, not casual background music listening, but the desire to be closer to the real thing!

If the misinformed folks with their opinions could have been around 45+ years ago and had what most of us had, in terms of low powered amps and other lesser quality of ways to reproduce music, they'd know better about achieving the goal of 'realism' in reproduction and not be insisting like novices might do.

This notion of going backwards is not in my mind as I've grown much since that time long ago. Had that been my choice, I would have never delved so deeply in setting up a quality stereo system and learning as much as was available to me. I'd be using lesser quality equipment and not gone out of my way to attain a 'better-stereo', all things considered.

I don't use a shitty CD player for my needs, nor do I use a shitty cartridge. I use a Lyra Delos and Lyra Kleos cartridges along with AT-ART-9 and Ortofon Cadenza Blue to assist me in getting closer to the real thing.

As much as I spend on cartridges, cables, and quality pressed LP labels, along with 6500+ used old labels, I still retain my AR-LST speakers because I prefer them as the 'standard' that they are and more than likely will always be. I also prefer to use classic old tonearms that were and are still more than commonly sited as good quality, they're actually great and older standards of the world. It's the same with my old  turntables and old pre-amp and old amps. It must be brought out that no matter how old these components are, they still give me about 85 to 90 percent of  expensive and current components.

For those who choose to remain in the dark with un-natural sound reproduction or small-scale size reproduction, then they could simply go out and purchase some cheap earphones and keep themselves in that realm.

In this 'new-world of 2016' going onto 2017 and beyond to 2020+, to many others seems not correct that "the meek shall inherit the world" by going backwards. But what could I know as a 'baby-boomer'?

Ignorance should be hidden or better still mentally personally open to information that is or was established years ago and not flaunting their inexperience as if it were a new finding or any sort of progression in the realm of 'vintage high fidelity' that came before them! Or, am I'm being again acting 'politically incorrect'?

I don't have the best house or car but, I don't go around pretending that they compare or could ever be what they are not. I enjoy them for what they are and I don't act as if they're something they're not. If and when I should ever have the best there is, I'd still understand that no matter what I think, there's always something or a person and someone who has better because I know that 'better' does and will always exist beyond my simple thoughts and perceptions.

I will always wish the best to this world.

My eyes and mind are always open, I will dream about, aspire to more but, I know where I stand, and look forward to learning and maybe some day knowing what others do more than I could perceive and having more than I do along with them.

That's just an aspect of my life, I don't argue with people or contest their opinions about it, I simply accept my reality for what it is, period. I've learned that there is always something better that I can and or could aspire to.

FM

P.S. I'm going to have to go back to my intense listening sessions once more instead of simply talking and reading what others think about the hi-fi world. I briefly came out of my cave because I wanted to see what was going on. I see it's cloudy out here and not very clear weather. 

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15 minutes ago, frankmarsi said:

For those who choose to remain in the dark with un-natural sound reproduction or small-scale size reproduction, then they could simply go out and purchase some cheap earphones and keep to themselves there.

Ignorance should be hidden or open to information that is or was established years ago and not flaunting their inexperience as if it a new finding!

 

You really need to lighten up. Nobody has said that you should only use small power with these speakers. I've noted that I'm using a big power amp currently. So there is not debate there. Some of us simply enjoy how they sound, sometimes, with something different. 

 I played in r'n'r bands for over 20 years from the time I was 16,  and was going to live shows since I was 10. So we're talking almost 50 years of hearing and playing live music. I know what live music sounds like. My ears know what live music sounds like. I do not want, or need, to replicate a live concert when I listen to music anymore. I don't get off on it, and neither do my neighbors or my wife. That doesn't make me ignorant, or in the dark, and your statements are not only off base, but insulting. Not just to me, but to others here who have expressed their enjoyment of smaller power amps, on occasion,  with their AR speakers. Those of us who have expressed that opinion have already noted that we've been listening to recorded and live music for decades. Nobody is new to this. 

 It sounds like you live alone, and have a lot of space between you and your neighbors. Great. Have a blast.  But your "opinion" that one can only fully enjoy, and take advantage of, AR speakers if they are doing as you do is just that. Your opinion. And my opinion(and some others, it seems, as well) is that it's not necessary to replicate sitting at the Bottom Line or the Village Vanguard or CBGB's every time I play a record for me to fully enjoy it through AR3 speakers. Do they sound good with 200-300 watts in front of them? Yep.  Do they sound good with 28 watts? Yep. 

So how about we just agree to disagree, and carry on, and not take this so personally. I was trying to convey some humor above, but now I'm trying to tell you let's just enjoy what we have and play nice, and not take the whole thing so seriously. 

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I have listened to my full-sized (3a/2ax/LST-2/11/91/50t/9) AR speakers with everything from a Dyna SCA-80 integrated amp (36 wpc RMS into 4 ohms once the FTC got through with it) to various Kenwood integrateds, Mits and Adcom power amps and currently a Parasound  2250 Classic power amp that delivers 400 wpc RMS into my fully-restored 9’s in a smallish  13 x 17-ft room.

In my experience, the Dyna was by far the “worst,” but not because of the modest power. I know amplifier differences aren’t “supposed” to exist (and in reality, all those so-called ‘differences’ can likely be attributed to very slight FR deviations that result from particular pre-amp/power-amp/speaker couplings—impedance and the like—s/n issues, distortion spectral content, perhaps—perhaps—“damping factor,” etc.), but even when the amps are not pushed into gross clipping, I can hear differences. It’s the amp’s quality and comfort with the speaker’s load that seems to matter the most, not the raw power. My Kenwood KA-7002 amplifier, although at 50wpc, less than 1dB more powerful than the Dyna,, sounded light years better with the 2ax and 3a. Light years better.

My listening tastes are Miles, Freddie, Buddy, Jones/Lewis, Weather Report, Shorter, Brecker, Mr. T, Cobham, Metheny, Tyner, Hutcherson, Chick, Farrell, Horace, Henderson, etc. So it would seem that sb0357 could sit right down in my listening room any day and enjoy himself. 36 watts or 400.

 

Steve F.

 

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Steve F said  "My listening tastes are Miles, Freddie, Buddy, Jones/Lewis, Weather Report, Shorter, Brecker, Mr. T, Cobham, Metheny, Tyner, Hutcherson, Chick, Farrell, Horace, Henderson, etc. So it would seem that sb0357 could sit right down in my listening room any day and enjoy himself. 36 watts or 400."

A man after my own heart!  Pretty much my play-list as well.

der

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frankmarsi said:

Magnepan speakers to me have a wonderful midrange and high-end, plus an over all good spread of sound but, their bass is not up to par with the rest of the speaker. I’ve been told this by an owner and have read many online reviews, plus, I’ve had a one time demonstration. 

So, because their bass is deficient, owning these would necessitate buying and finding room for a ‘sub-woofer’ which is an added inconvenience and additional expense.

A ‘Rel’ or other quality subwoofer are oddly very expensive so, who needs that absurdity?

 

If you would like to stare at two big doors sitting in the middle of your living room and always dealing with that imposing site and inconvenience I guess they’d be all right for you but, not me.

 

Then there’s the necessary rebuild they apparently require as their construction methods indicate that the adhesives that hold the wires in place tend to dry out with in a few years. It’s a bigger job than simply replacing a foam surround on an AR 3a woofer.

 

I dispute virtually everything about these comments; realizing that this is not a Magneplanar forum precludes a more detailed response.

 

"My listening tastes are Miles, Freddie, Buddy, Jones/Lewis, Weather Report, Shorter, Brecker, Mr. T, Cobham, Metheny, Tyner, Hutcherson, Chick, Farrell, Horace, Henderson, etc. So it would seem that sb0357 could sit right down in my listening room any day and enjoy himself. 36 watts or 400."

 

Add in some Coltrane and Sonny Rollins, and I'm right there with you guys!

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6 minutes ago, ar_pro said:

"My listening tastes are Miles, Freddie, Buddy, Jones/Lewis, Weather Report, Shorter, Brecker, Mr. T, Cobham, Metheny, Tyner, Hutcherson, Chick, Farrell, Horace, Henderson, etc. So it would seem that sb0357 could sit right down in my listening room any day and enjoy himself. 36 watts or 400."

 

Add in some Coltrane and Sonny Rollins, and I'm right there with you guys!

Yup, although my jazz leanings have become more left of center as I've gotten older(think ESP Disk, or Jazz Actuel).  Not sure exactly why, but there it is. 

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5 hours ago, samberger0357 said:

Yup, although my jazz leanings have become more left of center as I've gotten older(think ESP Disk, or Jazz Actuel).  Not sure exactly why, but there it is. 

Left of center, indeed; that's great!

Between wifey & myself, we have about 90% of the available, in-print ECM recordings on our music server; it's always amazing to hear what that label has to say about jazz and modern music.

Here's the first page of our collection -  our entire ECM collection is pushing 500 GB!

ecm.JPG

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ECM. One of my favorite labels. Out here in Oakland, there's a great jazz store(maybe the best I've ever been to) called Groove Yard. It's owned by a guy who was the original importer of ECM vinyl into the States when he was a college student at UC Berkeley. Suffice to say I've been able to pick up a lot of the original German vinyl for pretty good prices. 

Do you have the Selected Signs cd box set on ECM? It's very eclectic, but very much worth owning. 

 

http://player.ecmrecords.com/selected-signs-box

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Yeah, yeah, so?

I played in bands since 1963 to just after 1973. Still have my Fender tube (2 6L6 tubes, one 12AX7 and 12AU7) 'Bassman' amp from '68 that I bought at "SAM-ASH" new, even have  a 'Vox' six ten inch speaker PA column (one of four we had) from 'summer of 1968'. And my "Shure Spher-O-Dyne'* microphone with my "Atlas" mic-stand.

I still have my guitars and bass here with me.

Oh, so are my original 1971 AR-3a's, and a 1967, 17.5 watt/per stereo tube amp.  These are some of the best, but I prefer high power and big speakers.

Funny my stereo amps can do more watts than my live performance amp and gear could ever do.

*P.S youtube forced this page on this me and this site. Enjoy.

 

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3 minutes ago, frankmarsi said:

These are some of the best, but I prefer high power and big speakers.

May you live long and prosper, and bang some heads along the way. 

And for heavens sake, keep having fun. 

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That's all I've done or would ever want to do!

Here's whats in my cough, cough, CD player these past 4 days. In da car, da # one system and da # 2 system.

It's the words and flow of musical precise-ness that matter to me.

Without a doubt one of the best rock pieces in 1993!

I burned on my old G4 a copy for the car, a copy for system one, and a copy for system two. It's been difficult to find on vinyl LP.

His (Sting's) pronouncement and intonement of the word 'progress' in the first line of lyric sounds exactly like my father would say it to me from 1949 to 2000. It was always such a well spoken word of prophecy by a early immigrant to this country from the 'other-side' in 1927 who belief in 'progress' and advancement as a natural and desired fact of being on this planet!!

( listen to the words and wonderful-ness of this song and let it take yourself.)

No denying it for me as a lover of all the music in this world, that this isn't a very well played and done five minute song, words, meaning, also presumed meaning and musically played quality of instruments right up there with the best in it's class!

Damn! He's using the same mike and stand I used in 1968!

FM

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4 hours ago, samberger0357 said:

ECM. One of my favorite labels. Out here in Oakland, there's a great jazz store(maybe the best I've ever been to) called Groove Yard. It's owned by a guy who was the original importer of ECM vinyl into the States when he was a college student at UC Berkeley. Suffice to say I've been able to pick up a lot of the original German vinyl for pretty good prices. 

Do you have the Selected Signs cd box set on ECM? It's very eclectic, but very much worth owning. 

 

http://player.ecmrecords.com/selected-signs-box

ECM is the only label that I can think of that never gave me a dud record; their quality control was impeccable. The original German vinyl would probably be the top of the pyramid, though! ^_^

We've bought a few of the 180g re-issues - The Köln Concert is exceptional, and sounds good in a different way than either the Japanese release of a few years back, or the 24-96 download. Our original 1975 vinyl went missing many years ago, but I can recall that it was a stunner.

We do have the Selected Signs set I & II, and then III through VIII, as well as the Rarum collection. My wife also managed to acquire the ECM books Sleeves of Desire, and Windfall Light before they became so collectable & pricey.

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But, as long as this has moved to a ‘Jazz-Fest’ instead of a slug-fest, AKA 'Love-Fest".

 

The ‘Duke, Bill Evans, Louis Bellson, Thelionious Monk, Ahmad Jamal, Dexter Gordon and of course, Count Basie. Many more in my originally recorded Vinyl LP collection to report tonite. My favorite female jazz singer being the great Ella Fitzgerald singing with Basie and others in Europe and here. I have vinyl that even I would not guest or think that I would have, but I do, I'm surprised myself*.

 

I really have no basis for liking jazz through, it’s a later on in life experience for me to be honest. Why, inquiring minds might ask?

 Well, because I wanted to be different than my elders and all those that came before me because that music was ‘fuddie-duddie’  to me growing up in the 1950’s and 1960’s because I was hearing ‘rock and roll’ on the AM radio. And my generation was the 1960’s where everything was new and so cool and we called it “ROCK”.

 

* But that's what high power and big speakers will do to ones mind and ears in that it will be as if listening to

'musical playback sounding more like it's being produced' , more than say,  merely being reproduced'!

 

Get it, hint, hint!

 

I'm just say'in!

FM

 

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Sounds like you dig ivory tinklers. My faves along of course with Evans(love the classic early stuff, but it's his late period Fantasy period which I tend to reach for the most these days) Monk and Jamal  are Bud Powell(the greatest, imo), Art Tatum, Paul Bley, McCoy Tyner, Charles Gayle and Cecil Taylor. Innovation and having an edge are vital for me when it comes to jazz. All jazz. 

Piano players particularly sound so damn real listening through a Fisher tube amp. 

I'm just say'in!

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'Piano players particularly sounds so damn real listening through a Fisher tube amp."

Be that as it may, hearing the pearly 88's on four LST's with 2200 pure RMS cleanly sounding off is something to behold!

Did I say 'Behold!'?

In my early encounters with such things , it was definitely a 'wake-up' too music being 'produced' and not merely 're-produced'.

It may be more than me 'just say'in'?  

My music loving guests would clearly attest to the same impressions as I do, as you will.

Actually, there's no one who could say unless experiencing the same thing just mentioned.

Should I just send you airfare/pre-paid and pick you up at the airport and give you two days or so, on me and my 'system'?

All inclusive on me. If you don't like the accommodations there's a motel 10 minutes away, but that cost I'll split with ya!

I have a few acres, we could set up a ring and duke it out there, with the deer, rabbits, fox, hawks, and turkey vultures, woodchucks, raccoons,  and my favorites, the fun loving chipmunks.

FM

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To begin with, FM, ya know I'm only having some fun, right? You should know that. This is all fun for me, unless it gets to name calling, etc. That I don't like, and it's got nothing to do with being politically incorrect. I'm from Boston, grew up around some pretty tough individuals, and know and use all the bad words. Not as much as when I was younger though. My wife doesn't like it, and she's way tougher then I am. 

I'm not sure I'm getting through to you. I've heard all kinds of music, for years and years and years, through systems with hundreds and hundreds of watts. Huge systems. I know, and understand the allure of big power. I get it. Seriously, I really do. And once in awhile, I do like to turn it up some. It's just that most of the time, I CHOOSE not to. Dig?

Now about coming out to your place. That might be fun, although after traveling for a living for many years I tend not to like doing it much anymore. Airports and airplanes particularly are disliked. Just spent a lovely 2+ weeks in Italy, and it was great except for the traveling part. And I was in first class. 

But thanks for the invite. I certainly wouldn't mind hearing that system of yours. Even if I probably wouldn't be able to hear anything after I left. 

 

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O.K. have your way as is evident thus far.

But, I assure you this,  Frank- King here, and not 'Sam___ -King.

So be it, you'd only leave here, gee, I'm not sure what the doctors would call your new condition. I have heard of "extreme audio orgasmic conditions", but hey I must be past that condition myself by now. I know that would be a very likely hood of occurrence but, I'll be frank once more, I'm not covering that expense. My car has the biggest trunk in it's class, I'll just throw in there and dump in Boston.

It would most likely end, oh, I don't wanna say, maybe audio additive-what-ever?

FM

P.S. Boston, I was up there in 1972 and '75, again in 1991 at a couple of two main pubs there.

 Lovely town, wonder what it's like these days?

Wait a minute, it can't be good if you're there.

 

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8 minutes ago, frankmarsi said:

Boston, I was up there in 1972 and '75.again in 1991 at a couple of two main pubs there.

 Lovely town, wonder what it's like these days?

Wait a minute, it can't be good if you're there.

Frank, Frank...let's play nice, remember? Bee's and honey, etc....

Boston ain't like it was in the 70's, or even the 90's. It's sold out to the rich, much like NYC(although I must admit I can still find a lot of personality and soul in NYC...not so easy to find in Boston anymore). 

Look closely...I'm not in Boston so the coast is clear.  Go get some lobster and fried clams. The North End is still good if you like Italian food. I'm guessing you do. 

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I realize this is the AR speakers discussion forum, not a jazz discussion forum.

But....I write very detailed, well-crafted (I know, that's just so nervy and egotistical of me to say) and tongue-in-cheek humorous articles on jazz on a fairly regular basis. If you'd like to be on that e-mail distribution list (I'll bcc you, to preserve your privacy), PM me through this forum with your e-mail address.

My out-of-proportion interest and enthusiasm for jazz is at least equal to my out-of-proportion interest and enthusiasm for AR speakers.

Steve F.

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51 minutes ago, Steve F said:

I realize this is the AR speakers discussion forum, not a jazz discussion forum.

But....I write very detailed, well-crafted (I know, that's just so nervy and egotistical of me to say) and tongue-in-cheek humorous articles on jazz on a fairly regular basis. If you'd like to be on that e-mail distribution list (I'll bcc you, to preserve your privacy), PM me through this forum with your e-mail address.

My out-of-proportion interest and enthusiasm for jazz is at least equal to my out-of-proportion interest and enthusiasm for AR speakers.

Steve F.

PM coming. You got me with tongue in cheek and humorous.  

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Okay, last time I was in Boston was in the 70's taking the test for my First Class Radiotelephone license with the FCC.

What topic are we on now? What's the lowest amount of brain power necessary to enjoy AR-3 speakers? Ah, yeah, ... PM to you SF ;)

Roger

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