What's the lowest amount of watts you have used with our AR3/3A's?

[owlsplace]

I look at engineering systems as being closed boxes. You can change the size of the box to fit your needs/desires and as long as all the variables stay confined there will be no issues. Everyone has a different impression of what the box's characteristics should be -- choose yours and be happy. The trend is toward smaller boxes these days and AR recommended 25W for the AR-3 back in the day. I would definitely recommend fusing at this time in history.

Roger

 

[der]

My amp is rated at 150 wpc at 4 ohms and my 3a's are fused. Most of my listening is the low to moderate sound levels.

der

[frankmarsi]

Just some swipes/clips/culled from the web.

http://thehub.musiciansfriend.com/tech-tips/tech-tip-wattage-speaker-efficiency-amplifier-loudness

Wattage, power, and SPL

So how many watts does it take to get twice as loud? Let's imagine two amps—one 10 watts, and a second 20 watts. The 20-watt amp is double the power of the 10-watt amp, but doubling the power only translates to an increase of 3dB SPL. Remember, in order to sound "twice as loud," you need an increase of 10dB, so while a 20W amplifier will sound noticeably louder than a 10W amp, it will not sound twice as loud. The same thing holds true at higher wattages—a 100W amp is not going to sound twice as loud as a 50W amp; assuming identical 

speakers, it will only be 3dB louder, which is noticeable, but definitely not a doubling of perceived loudness.

 

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/voltageloudness.html

 

The implications of this comparison in a typical hi-fi system is significant. Let us assume that you are listening to your stereo at a comfortable volume of 8OdB. We will further assume that this level requires 25 peak watts from your amplifier. To just barely increase the volume, we might increase loudness by 3dB. As we can see from the chart, this will require a doubling of power from the amplifier, which will now be churning out 50 peak watts to produce a loudness of 83dB. If we want to double the apparent volume from our original level we will need to create 9OdB of sound pressure, requiring 250 peak watts.

It is obvious from the example above that adequate amplifier power is necessary to provide an accurate portrayal of music. This is especially true when attempting to reproduce realistic levels, or when driving inefficient speakers. However, even small efficient speakers may require copious amounts of power to cleanly reproduce transient peaks. In the final analysis, it is difficult to have too much power. While a small amplifier of only a few watts output can produce surprising average loudness, the dynamic peaks will usually suffer unless the sensitivity of the speaker is very high.

Many individuals I have spoken with are concerned with having "too much" power. The perception is that an amplifier with an output greater than that recommended by the speaker manufacturer would be likely to damage the speaker. This is not necessarily so. Interestingly, an under powered amplifier is more likely to cause speaker damage! During my training at the JBL factory for transducer servicing, I saw more speakers (tweeters/midranges) damaged from use with under powered amplifiers than ones that succumbed to being overdriven. Sound strange? Not really, once you understand what is happening.

When an amplifier is over-driven, it "clips" the wave-form. What was a clean sine wave becomes a distorted, almost square, wave. A square wave is extremely difficult for a speaker to reproduce, as it requires virtually instantaneous starting and stopping of the diaphragm. At sufficient power levels, the tweeter will simply die trying to reproduce this wave-form. A given tweeter rated to handle 50 watts of clean undistorted sine-wave power, will be capable of handling only a fraction of that amount in square-wave input.

As you can see, clean, undistorted power is the key. A 25 watt amplifier, constantly driven to clipping, is more dangerous than a 250 watt amplifier that is never taxed. Of course, let reason prevail. I am not saying that speakers can handle endless input, they cannot. However, extra power does not mean that speaker damage is bound to occur. If common sense is used, any size amplifier can be employed.

 

 

 

And from another site:

 

Power output and speaker volume is not a linear relationship! Doubling the amplifier/receiver power won't double how loud the music sounds (hint: it's logarithmic). For example, an amplifier/receiver with 100 W per channel will not play twice as loud as an amplifier/receiver with 50 W per channel using the same speakers. In such a situation, the actual difference in maximum loudness would be just slightly louder – the change is only 3 dB. It takes an increase of 10 dB in order to make speakers play twice as loud as before (a 1 dB increase would barely be discernable). Rather, having more amplifier power allows the system to handle musical peaks with greater ease and less strain, which results in better overall sound clarity. There is little point to audio enjoyment if too much power causes the speakers to distort and sound terrible.

 

I rest my case, I'm done.

FM

 

 

 

And, I bet you didn't know that years ago, one of the main ingredients in Coca Cola was cocaine.

[samberger0357]

Good reading. So am I right in deducting that the author of the article is claiming that it's silly to use a low power(in my case 28 watts) amp because the larger amp(say 200 watts) will be able to handle the peaks and valley's of various musical passages easier thus providing an overall smoother ride? Therefore using a smaller amp makes little sense if you have bigger guns available? 

Warm, cold, somewhere in between?

[frankmarsi]

I can't hear you. I'm listening to Stokowski's rendition of 'Night on Bald Mountain', on vinyl.

It's a 40+ year old vinyl record that my sister used to give her very young students an encouraging idea of how stimulating and great classical music can be. I washed it on my RCM and except a couple of clicks and pops here and there, it sounds magnificent!

Almost approaching a real live concert but, what do I know?

Well, I do know I wanted to learn what she was teaching her students even I was a young person myself.

I've been playing that very same record all of these years. It wasn't until I hooked up my 3a's to my new Phase Linear 400 in 1974 that I truly realized that more amplifier power equals a more realistic conveyance of reality. But, I digress, what is reality?

Is it live, or is it Marsi-ex?

 

 

[owlsplace]

2 hours ago, der said:

My amp is rated at 150 wpc at 4 ohms and my 3a's are fused. Most of my listening is the low to moderate sound levels.

der

Here is a good summary from "Soudminded" from a few years back. It should be remembered that the AR-3 load can drop into the one ohm range so your amp needs to be able to survive that:

Here is the kind of fusing arrangement that should be on the AR-3's where each driver has an appropriately sized fuse. This one is from Heathkit:

Roger

[samberger0357]

I think I've gotten to the crux of my dilemma. It was brought up in an earlier post. Trusting my ears, or better yet, am I hearing what I'm supposed to be hearing. Now be patient with me...It's not even 8:30 here on the left coast, and I've only downed one cup of joe so far(the other pot is brewing) so if I sound infantile, insane, ridiculous, etc etc etc, just skip over this nonsense and go about your daily routine. 

The question is, how do I know if what the Fisher 400/AR3 combo is delivering to me, no matter how good it sounds to my ears, is getting to me the full potential of what the 3's have to offer? So many folks have insisted that they can't possibly get at what the 3's have to offer without xxx watts in the arsenal. I'm going to throw in my Adcom 5400 later today, again, and do another comparison. I checked it's DC offset this morning and it registered well within the excellent range, so I'm confident it's in fine working order. And I'll throw a newer tube preamp(Decware) in front of it instead of the Yamaha C4 that I've been using, again for shits and giggles. But as I sit here and listen to one of my favorite ESP Disks by the great saxophonist Sonny Simmons, his bassist supremo Teddy Smith is rumbling, and I do mean that literally, throughout the proceedings. There's a riot going on, and when I check the volume/gain it's stuck between 3-4(that's about 10 o'clock for you non Fisher devotees), and it's loud. It would seem to me that the boat anchor woofer is getting a hell of lot of air, but again, other then comparisons with a much larger amp, how do I know? Even if the larger amp provides even more bass response, is Peggy Lee still asking the question(for you young'uns...."Is That All There Is")?

Well as I've been writing this I've been notified of more responses, so I'll end here and give you all a break. 

And believe it or not, this is fun for me. I'm not tortured, and am not thinking of chucking it all in the river.  It's kinda how iI get my jollies these days since I'm no longer allowed most of the vices that made life so interesting for me decades past. 

[samberger0357]

9 minutes ago, owlsplace said:

Here is a good summary from "Soudminded" from a few years back. It should be remembered that the AR-3 load can drop into the one ohm range so your amp needs to be able to survive that:

Here is the kind of fusing arrangement that should be on the AR-3's where each driver has an appropriately sized fuse. This one is from Heathkit:

Roger

Wish I had seen this when I was having my speaker repaired a few weeks ago so I could've had my pro guy install for me. It's a schlep to bring them down to him but I guess I'll have to consider it. Thanks for the pic. 

[frankmarsi]

That seems very nice Roger, however you'd be changing fuses very often while the woofer keeps going. Makes no sense unless you're in love with that tweeter and want to protect it like a fine watch or diamond ring.

Since 1974 or so, I realized that the amount of frustration and anger it took, the AR tweeter was a wimp and no longer worth my time. And even though it had a wonderful sound and coverage, it did not allow 'realistic' listening levels. That same year I went out and purchased Micro-Static's and never looked back. And even though their little conventional cones have their design short-comings, they are worth their weight in gold, at least for me to go on listening uninterrupted.

I have and know this will sound ridiculously unbelievable but, I have over 60 spare tweeters comprised of 20 'HV-3 whatevers, 20 ABT, 11 AR-9 tweeters and about 6 AR-11 tweeters.

I have not installed a single one because all of these tweeters just can not 'keep-up' with the AR midrange and AR woofers with high amplifier power and 'realistic-levels', period!

Go figure and bring Sam with you!   He's frustrating me.

[samberger0357]

32 minutes ago, frankmarsi said:

I can't hear you. I'm listening to Stokowski's rendition of 'Night on Bald Mountain', on vinyl.

It's a 40+ year old vinyl record that my sister used to give her very young students an encouraging idea of how stimulating and great classical music can be. I washed it on my RCM and except a few clicks and pops, it sounds magnificent!

Almost approaching a real live concert but, what do I know?

Well, I do know I wanted to learn what she was teaching her students even I was a young person myself.

I've been playing that very same record all of these years. It wasn't until I hooked up my 3a's to my new Phase Linear 400 in 1974 that I truly realized that more amplifier power equals a more realistic conveyance of reality. But, I digress, what is reality?

Is it live, or is it Marsi-ex?

 

 

I have that. Now I just have to find it so I can play it in honor of your sister.  I come from a long line of music teachers(well, I married into them, actually, but still...), and my wife is a teacher. So the inspiration is there. 

Have you seen the documentary that Anderson Cooper did on his mother, Gloria Vanderbilt? Quite good, and quite a bit on her marriage to Stokowski. Worth it for that alone. 

[samberger0357]

5 minutes ago, frankmarsi said:

That seems very nice Roger, however you'd be changing fuses very often while the woofer keeps going. Makes not sense unless you're in love with that tweeter and want to protect it like a fine watch or diamond ring.

Since 1974 or so, I realized that the amount of frustration and anger it took, the AR tweeter was a wimp and no longer worth my time. And even though it had a wonderful sound and coverage, it did not allow 'realistic' listening levels. That same year I went out and purchased Micro-Static's and never looked back. And even though their little conventional cones have their design short-comings, they are worth they weight in gold, at least for me to go on listening uninterrupted.

I have and know this will sound ridiculously unbelievable over 50 spare tweeters comprised of 20 'HV-3 whatever, 20 ABT, 11 AR-9 tweeters and about 4 AR-11 tweeters.

I have not installed a single one because all of these tweeters just can not 'keep-up' withe AR midrange and Ar woofers.

Go figure and bring Sam with you!   He's frustrating me.

I know, and I apologize. Not intentional I assure you. 

[Sonnar]

55 minutes ago, frankmarsi said:

As you can see, clean, undistorted power is the key. A 25 watt amplifier, constantly driven to clipping, is more dangerous than a 250 watt amplifier that is never taxed. Of course, let reason prevail. I am not saying that speakers can handle endless input, they cannot. However, extra power does not mean that speaker damage is bound to occur. If common sense is used, any size amplifier can be employed.

I agree. You can drive AR speakers with high wattage of undistorted musical signal without damage ( not obviously 500 watts of continuos power with pink noise ) . But I prefer to use my AR speakers usually at normal listening levels, 90 db, to listen classical , baroque music or jazz . I don 't believe a low-sensitivity, direct radiator could be the ideal speaker for very high SPL listening ( I mean over 100 db SPL ) . There are other kind of speaker able to reach 120 db SPL easily, with an impact unattainable by a direct radiating speaker.

[frankmarsi]

Hey il mio paisano, sto facendo tutto sollevamento pesante qui.

E, non vuole ascoltare correttamente me o i suoi altoparlanti. Perché

Vedete?  Potete condurre un cavallo ad innaffiare ma, non potete rendergli la bevanda esso!

 

 

[samberger0357]

I was in Italy for 2+ weeks and picked up a fair amount of the language. I get it. No offense meant, none taken. Perhaps I was asking too much from you and others, and for that I apologize. Yes, I've heard, and understood everything that has been said, and have great respect for everyone on this forum. Which is why I've been asking so many questions. It's been enjoyable for me to ask, and to read answers. If it's been torture for you, sir, again, my sincere apologies.  I

In conclusion, I can't hear enough difference between the Fisher and the Adcom, even with a tube preamp, so I'm going to go back to the Fisher and be done with it, and while I'll continue to peruse this fine forum going forward, I'll keep my thoughts and questions to myself. 

Again, sorry for any unintentional aggravation that I have caused you. 

 

[ar_pro]

" I don 't believe a low-sensitivity, direct radiator could be the ideal speaker for very high SPL listening ( I mean over 100 db SPL ) ."



I agree with Adriano's statement, especially regarding vintage AR systems using a/s woofers and domed mids & tweets; even the mighty AR-9 will start to compress the sound when driven to an extreme continuous spl, regardless of how much power it's fed. And past this point, the drivers would be sacrificed. To me, the beauty of the AR system is in its ability to sound musical at  low-to-moderate levels, but still be able to render peaks in a realistic fashion. It is not an Altec A-7, and it doesn't want to be an Altec A-7.



Although not being someone who enjoys playing music at a level generally found only at hi-fi shows, there's still a need for a reserve of power, even when enjoying music at more moderate settings. All things being equal, my personal preference is for a more powerful amplifier that is a musical & pleasing match-up at a moderate listening level, but easily capable of any short-term burst of power that the speaker might demand.



The attached image shows a meter on the amplifier used with our AR-91 systems. As a rule, those speakers live in the .2 to 2 watt range, but short-term demands have sent the needle to nearly the 200 watt (0 dB) level. This is what I'm talking about.

[Sonnar]

No Sam, it' s a very interesting dilemma : how many watts You need to be happy with your speakers? A philosophical point of wiew doesn 't necessarily match a technical point of wiew. 

[samberger0357]

Thank you Adriano. Appreciate your comments, and your lovely country. I hope the next time I return I can get to Rome and we can have a listening session. 

[Sonnar]

Sam, I 'll be very pleased to meet You in Rome. We 'll have a very interesting listening session !     Adriano

[frankmarsi]

Oh great, I do all of the heavy lifting here and you two are hugging and paying each other complements making dates and walking off happily into the sunset.

 

I knew shouldn’t have cared.

 

'No good deed goes unpunished'   I guess.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But, fear not said King Leonidas to Xerxes.

 

I am the one with the big amplifiers and big speakers enjoying myself all of the time, while some here can only imagine the heights to which I soar to!

 

[Sonnar]

1 hour ago, frankmarsi said:

Hey il mio paisano, sto facendo tutto sollevamento pesante qui.

E, non vuole ascoltare correttamente me o i suoi altoparlanti. Perché

Vedete?  Potete condurre un cavallo ad innaffiare ma, non potete rendergli la bevanda esso!

 

 

Ciao Frank , I agree with You , and in fact my next amp will be a 1500 watt per channel pro QSC PLX , as Tom Tyson does, just for head room reasons. Those modern pro amps are very fine sounding and are designed to damp the very large 18" and 21" woofers standard in professional PA loudspeakers and gives a superb control to 12" AR woofer. According to Tom Tyson, Italy was the most important foreign market for AR , so AR speakers are very highly regarded here. I have many friends proud owners of AR big speakers, bu everyone of them has its own way to drive and listen his speakers. Carlo is very happy with a " weak " Leak Stereo 20 , while Davide use ( lucky man! ) two Marantz model 9 and Maurizio prefers his Phase Linear 700II , and I prefer to alternate high power modern pro amps to old , low wattage american tube amps. Do You prefer blondes or brunettes? I like them both , and also redheads. Fortunately, in hifi to have multiple choice is an opportunity and not a problem . Frank , I 'm waiting for You in Rome , a listening session  and some excellent wines.   Ciao, Adriano

[samberger0357]

Hey Frank, stop the heavy lifting. You'll get a hernia.

And thanks for your efforts. They haven't gone unappreciated. 

Now back to the music. 

[frankmarsi]

Wine, women and song in Rome, the 'mother of the world'.

You see samburger, I'm getting some excellent wines and you're just getting an audio session.

Revenge is best served cold, the wine I mean.

"These proceedings are closed!"

FM

[frankmarsi]

2 hours ago, Sonnar said:

Ciao Frank , I agree with You , and in fact my next amp will be a 1500 watt per channel pro QSC PLX , as Tom Tyson does, just for head room reasons. Those modern pro amps are very fine sounding and are designed to damp the very large 18" and 21" woofers standard in professional PA loudspeakers and gives a superb control to 12" AR woofer. According to Tom Tyson, Italy was the most important foreign market for AR , so AR speakers are very highly regarded here. I have many friends proud owners of AR big speakers, bu everyone of them has its own way to drive and listen his speakers. Carlo is very happy with a " weak " Leak Stereo 20 , while Davide use ( lucky man! ) two Marantz model 9 and Maurizio prefers his Phase Linear 700II , and I prefer to alternate high power modern pro amps to old , low wattage american tube amps. Do You prefer blondes or brunettes? I like them both , and also redheads. Fortunately, in hifi to have multiple choice is an opportunity and not a problem . Frank , I 'm waiting for You in Rome , a listening session  and some excellent wines.   Ciao, Adriano

Grazie per tutto sonnar. Amerei vedere Roma ed anche cercare un ex-girfiend chi ha funzionato via là in 36 anni fa, spero che lo aiutiate.

[onplane]

4 hours ago, frankmarsi said:

Since 1974 or so, I realized that the amount of frustration and anger it took, the AR tweeter was a wimp and no longer worth my time. And even though it had a wonderful sound and coverage, it did not allow 'realistic' listening levels. That same year I went out and purchased Micro-Static's and never looked back. And even though their little conventional cones have their design short-comings, they are worth their weight in gold, at least for me to go on listening uninterrupted.

Hi, Frank!

This is probably the wrong thread, but when you say the AR tweeter is a "wimp", what does that mean?  Are you saying that they are fragile and will self destruct easily?  Or are you saying you can't get the SPL out of them that you want?

Or did you mean something else?

My concern with them is efficiency!  That is, they were just too far behind the mid and woofer in sound output. Now my solution was to simply give them more voltage and Roy agreed that it might work.  Roy also cautioned that my solution might just end my tweeters' life.  Well, that was some 8 years ago and the tweeters are working just fine.

We also must remember that my 3a's are in my den, a very small room, and I never exceed 2 watts to the woofer according to the power LEDs on the amp.

Now, I also have a set of AR TSW610's (Telednye era) in the family room and their titanium domes are significantly more efficient than the 3a tweeters and are capable of putting out significantly more SPL.

 

Regards,

Jerry

[frankmarsi]

9-30-16

Where is that guy samburger?

 

You see, you see what’s happening now?

 

Our site mate and future friend is running with the ball at an excellerated pace here, maybe too excellerated at that. And you might be to blame?

Not that I’m against high power and all that it brings to the table, I mean speaker but………

 

I did mention that feeding each of my four LST’s is done by two PL-700II handing 550+ RMS watts to each speaker but, maybe “sonnar’ is running would you say, above the radar?

 

My conservatively rated 550+ watts @ 4ohms (probably more like 625 watts) per speaker is more than adequate but, 1500 watts is a possible train wreck in the wings waiting to happen. And he’s only using two 3a’s. This could be tragic?

 

What if “sonnar’ has been prompted by our discussion and has taken this whole power thing too seriously?

 

Look more than likely some of my ancestors may have come from Rome but, through the ages some things have changed, that only stands to reason. I’m worried now if “sonnar" gets too carried away some of those original structures that are still standing from the ancient period might tumble down, then what?

 

Al-rite, al-rite, maybe I am over reacting but somebody has to preserve history. 

I mean, that’s what we’re all doing here with our speakers aren’t we?

 

Listen to me samburger, get on the horn and tell 'sonnar' that we're coming. 

 

Wait a minute, you’re probably still digesting this whole power thing? Gee, it was like getting a saddle on a bucking stallion there with you. So, you might not be the one for the job. Sorry, I know this is an equal opportunity site, but there are exceptions regardless.

 

You know what, contact “owlsplace’, perhaps with a few owls tied to his outstretched arms he might get there sooner than both of us?

FM

 

P.S. Look, if you get there first to see him please, talk some sense into him.

Wait a minute, you might be the wrong guy for the job again?

 

I’ll tell you what, you pay for my airfare and hotel, I’ll get there first and lay the ground work for you.

Sounds good to me. Wait a minute what sounds good to me obviously has not been the same thing that sounds good to you.

 

Houston, I think we have a problem.

FM