Ar9 questions/ issues

[stampy986]

Hello, I am the proud new of of some AR9's.  They are a beautiful pair of speakers but I am having issues.

I was using an mint pair of AR90's before and absolutely loved them.  They hit hard and filled my room with amazing sound. I could "feel" the low end when playing music and watching movies.  So the other day I had the opportunity to purchase AR9's and went for it.  I was expecting an amazing sound that was going to blows the 90's away, but sadly I was disappointed.  The low end was not there and they dont hit as hard and crisp as my 90's.  The upper range seemed very "bright."  When I played a song for my wife she asked me where the bass had gone.  We were expecting more.  

My first thought is I don't have enough power, but i was also thinking that these speakers may need to be recapped.  

I am running a Yamaha RX-V2700.  At 4 ohms it puts supposedly cranks out 230 watts into each channel. I have it bi-amped.   

Any thoughts?  Do I not have enough power for the low end?  Should the caps be changed.  

What are your thoughts on the more modern amps ex.  Crown xls-1000?

Thanks

 

[Stimpy]

Congratulations on the AR9 find.  I hope that you'll enjoy them.

As to your issues, both of your suggestions could be true.  A lack of a capable power amp, and the speakers needing a recap, could cause your issues.  But, as a fellow AR90 owner, my speakers still sound very good, and I 'believe' my caps are fine (though I will be recapping them soon, just in case).  And as a Yamaha fan too, I use a Yamaha RX-A3030 for my speakers, and they sound awesome.

But, one other thing that I'd check on is the woofer wiring.  Have the woofers and lower mids been refoamed?  If so, I'd pull the woofers and double-check the wiring.  Some one may have incorrectly rewired the drivers, when the woofers were reinstalled.  Out of phase woofers will definitely diminish the bass response, and cause the treble to seem overly bright as a result.

Good luck.

 

[DavidR]

From the lower mid driver up is identical for the 9 and 90. Stimpy has a very good suggestion.

The crossover on the woofers is very different. Having a good robust amp on those woofers is a must. Class A or Class A/B amp will drive them well. It should be a high current amp for best results.

I just looked up your amp. Its a 7.1 AV that does 140wpc into 8 ohms. It is not spec'd into a 4 ohm load on the Yamaha website. It did not say what class amp it was. I would definitely bi-amp if you aren't already.

[ar_pro]

As per Stimpy's advice, be sure to check the wiring to your woofers. After pulling one of the woofers, examine the two crossover boards for any sort of modification or replacement that could affect things (take photos).

And since you're noticing a significant difference in the upper range of your new AR-9, it wouldn't hurt to pull each driver and check that they are all properly connected, and that the appropriate 3-position switch works as it should with each upper-range driver.

Another issue could be the quality of any refoam work that has been done to the 4 woofers, and to the 2 lower-midrange drivers. Photos would help here, too.

If you don't already have one, the AR-9 owner's manual is in the library; it will show you how to safely remove the drivers: http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/library/acoustic_research/ar-9_series_1978-1981/ar-9_series_manuals/ar-9_manual/

[Stimpy]

It's odd.  My old Yamaha RX-V3000 is spec'd at 140 watts into 8 ohms, 220 watts into 4 ohms, and 320 watts into 2 ohms; all dynamic power.  And as David stated, the 2700 is only listed with an 8 ohm rating.  So, your A/V receiver may be running out of steam.  Especially with the AR9s 12" dual woofer system, and it's much more complex crossover, compared to the AR90s.  Maybe running the preamp outputs into an external amp, to biamp the woofers, would help.

Oh yea, as ar_pro stated, check the surrounds, to make sure they look good, are centered, with no rubs.  Also, if they are new, the drivers will require a bit of a break in, for the surrounds to loosen, and bass to play at normal levels.

[DavidR]

Here's a crossover schematic for the AR9.

The parallel cap on the UMR is an 8uF not a 6.

 

[stampy986]

Thank you all for the information and suggestions.

Stimpy, I will check the wiring on the woofers as soon as I return home.  Yes all the woofers have been reformed.   I will take some pictures.  I manually pushed them in slightly and felt no rubbing.  They do seem to be sealed well as other woofer moves as I push.  

DavidR,  Yes the manually does say 140 wpc @8 ohms, but the manual also mentions they will drive 4 ohm speakers.   A review from audioholics says that should be making about 230 watts per channel.  http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/yamaha-rx-v2700-receiver-review/rx-v2700-measurements-and-analysis

Yes I am bi-amping them.  

Ar pro,  As soon as I am home, I will open them up and exam the xovers and take some pictures to post.

Below is the chart from audioholics testing review

# Ch Driven	Power Consumption	Power Delivered	Load	Efficiency
1	288 watts	144 watts	8 ohms	50 %
4	765 watts	90 watts	8 ohms	47 %
1	513 watts	272 watts	4 ohms	53 %
2	774 watts	230 watts	4 ohms	59 %
Idle Power	72 watts

 

 

 

 

 

[Stimpy]

How are you biamping?  With unused channels in the Yamaha, or with the Yamaha and another external amp?  There is a difference.  Only using 4 channels on the Yamaha, isn't going to help much, since as new channels are added, the overall watt output per channel drops.  You'd be better off finding something around 200 watts, just for the bass.  Adcom, Acurus, Carver, Hafler, NAD, or Parasound, all would be worthy candidates.  Plus, the pro Crown you mentioned, would be fine for a bass amp too.

[iso]

On 3.7.2016 at 2:24 AM, stampy986 said:

I was using an mint pair of AR90's before and absolutely loved them.  They hit hard and filled my room with amazing sound. I could "feel" the low end when playing music and watching movies.  So the other day I had the opportunity to purchase AR9's and went for it.  I was expecting an amazing sound that was going to blows the 90's away, but sadly I was disappointed.  The low end was not there and they dont hit as hard and crisp as my 90's.  

I do not know what kind of issues your AR9 may have, but I happened to have AR9 pair in early 80´s and my good friend did have pair of AR90´s these days. We did agree that their LF reproduction was quite different. AR9 did obviously have better bass extension but LF of AR90 was clearly tighter. We considered  AR9 LF  be slightly on woolly or flabby side compared to AR90.

Dave Berriman´s AR90 review on link below points this difference quite clearly too... but there are also persons who think that AR9 just does have deeper bass.

Kimmo

 

 

[Stimpy]

I guess I need to follow my own advise, concerning the woofer wiring on my AR90s.  It seems mine are out of phase too!!!

Lately, I've been playing around with my surround set up.  I bought a new/refurb Yamaha RX-A3030 at a good price, and was wanting to try different speaker systems, to see (hear) which worked best in my home theater (spare bedroom).  I had been using Monsoon planar based dipole tower speakers.  I like these very much, but Monsoon never released a center to match their tower speakers.  So, I bought a used Martin Logan Fresco center.  It's a 3-way planar design too, but it uses closed back tweeters and mids, unlike the Monsoon's.  As such, it doesn't blend as well as I'd had liked with the Monsoons.  So, on to trial # 2.

I moved out the Monsoon's and the Martin Logan, and moved in my AR90s, a NHT VS-2a center, and a pair of NHT VT-1.2s for surrounds.  After hook up, I ran the Yamaha YPAO set up program, to EQ and balance the room.  Afterwards, I was shocked to find that the Yamaha reported my AR90s as being out of phase.  I rewired the 90s, reran YPAO, and everything was OK.  Sounds very good!  Better than before, in their other room, and better than the Monsoons.  I'll have to recheck all the wiring, though, when I recap. 

I bought my speakers new, direct from the AR factory, when I worked at Teledyne Avionics.  Makes me wonder what happened?

BTW -  I have a pair each of the middle and smaller Monsoons.  Always looking for the top speakers as well.

 

 

 

 

 

[ar_pro]

Afterwards, I was shocked to find that the Yamaha reported my AR90s as being out of phase.

That is really something!  I wonder what could've happened at the factory?

[owlsplace]

13 hours ago, Stimpy said:

Afterwards, I was shocked to find that the Yamaha reported my AR90s as being out of phase.  I ...

So the woofers were out of phase?

 

On 7/5/2016 at 2:35 AM, iso said:

AR9 did obviously have better bass extension but LF of AR90 was clearly tighter. We considered  AR9 LF  be slightly on woolly or flabby side compared to AR90.

Similar comments were made comparing the 3's and 5's from the Classic period.

 

I've been reading over on the Rane website about the complexities of signal processing/EQ in the modern age -- probably not an easy read for the uninitiated ...

http://www.rane.com/pdf/eqmethods.pdf

Roger

[Stimpy]

10 hours ago, ar_pro said:

Afterwards, I was shocked to find that the Yamaha reported my AR90s as being out of phase.

That is really something!  I wonder what could've happened at the factory?

It was more likely my own fault, when I refoamed all of the LMR's and woofers.  I 'thought' that I had marked all of the connections well, when removing the drivers, but I must have spaz'd out somewhere?  Being extremely red/green color blind doesn't help matters either!

[Stimpy]

12 minutes ago, owlsplace said:

So the woofers were out of phase?

Yup.  YPAO specifically reported the woofers as being out of phase.  I'm really curious about it too, and will soon pull the drivers, and check the wiring.  I actually hope I find something wired wrong.  If not, I'm puzzled about this!

I wonder if the side mounted woofers in both my AR90s and my NHT VT-1.2s could be 'confusing' the YPAO test?  But, the NHTs tested without issue.  And when I corrected the speaker wiring, I definitely noticed an improvement in the 90's bass.  So, something there, with an issue.

Oh yea, it's a 14'x16'x8' room.  Speakers are about 8' apart, with the speakers 4' from the each side wall.  Cabinets are against the wall as recommended.

 

 

[briodo]

Something I have used extensively is an iphone app called Speaker Pop http://www.studiosixdigital.com/audiotools-modules-2/speaker-test-modules/speaker_pop/.  It runs on my apple touch, uses the built in mike to pick up the sounds and reports speaker phase with a huge plus or minus.  At low volumes, it can even detect difference in drivers on a single speaker.

My AR9 preamp feeds two other amplifiers driving speakers in kitchen and back patio.  The complete system is a collage of Onkyo, Denon, AR, Soundcraftsmen, Mirage, and Crown components, resulting in who knows what phase coming out with the 5 pairs of speakers in the end.  I call up the Speaker Pop test tone and walk around to each speaker and get them all in phase by swapping wire pairs.  Result is quite nice bass response throughout.

My dog does hates the sound however.

Best $5 I have spent on iTunes...  There is a similar app for Android as well.

BTW, Studio Six Digital has a whole suite of audio tools including spectrum analyzer, SPL meter, and speaker test modules.  They aren't cheap, but I have found them to be well supported with regular upgrades to the product.

[KlausDK]

On 3/7/2016 at 4:58 AM, ar_pro said:

If you don't already have one, the AR-9 owner's manual is in the library; it will show you how to safely remove the drivers: http://www.classicspeakerpages.net/library/acoustic_research/ar-9_series_1978-1981/ar-9_series_manuals/ar-9_manual/

There is a link to a much better scan of the AR9-manual in this post:

AR9-manual

BRgds Klaus